what do you think of Spiderman's rogues?

[Rico]

3) Let him have just ONE arc where he isn't having **** tossed at him at every turn.

So he can have somne down time and do his taxes? That's an arc I'd like to see.

"Spidey faces his greatest foe: The IRS!"

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Just a heads up, Black Turantula appears in Brubaker current run of Daredevil

Sweet, now I can not read it even more.

 

[XwolverineX]

Spider-man has awesome enemies. Especially Venom! Chyeah!

 

[SpideyInATree]

And making the stories involving Aunt May after that meaningless is perfectly fine? The writers killed off Aunt May then because they felt she was out of steam as a character and couldnt think of much else to do with her. JMS and some other writers proved them wrong, Id say.

Granted, ASM #400 was a great story, but it would be utterly and thoroughly ******ed to retcon the retcon. It would make the overall story even worse tedious. Id rather they put her to good use instead of trying to reverse things.

Are you implying that I was saying that Aunt May should be dead?

Don't remember saying that here.

I was merely backing up someone's point earlier that Amazing Spider-Man # 400 was damaged in the scale of the Spider-Man mythos because of Aunt May's resurrection. The same way Amazing Spider-Man # 121 seemed to be affected to some fans when Sins Past was released.

I'm not saying kill Aunt May now. She's fine the way she is.

But the point was that the story, good on it's own if you want a "What If" issue, but it should have stayed within continuity. Great send off for a fantastic character. Made meaningless by Marvel's, as usual, second guessing.

 

[gildea]

I think that maybe you're missing Question's point.

Amazing Spider-Man # 400 is an amazing story and a great send off for a long time character of the book. Yet, it's basically made meaningless.

Much like many fans say Amazing Spider-Man # 121 was made meaningless because of Sins Past.

Yeah, as a stand alone fictional story Amazing Spider-Man # 400 is a good story. But when it comes to the full scale of the story...it's meaningless because Aunt May is still alive.

Not really.

This concept of "meaning" that comic book fans like to throw aroung in lieu of actual criticism is source of minor amusement to me, basically because they seem to tie in "meaning" with whether it affects the continuity or not. I've seen perfectly entertaining stories discarded as pointless because they don't alter continuity.

Which to me is such a ridiculous way to judge the meaning of a story. Meaning to me should be what it says either about the characters or an idea the author is trying to convey or even just how entertaining the story is, any affects on continuity should come as a RESULT of these criteria not as of itself (naturally i'm generalising btw).

Questions discarding of a perfectly good story as meaningless because of comic book retaconning comes across to me as an example of this small minded continuity-obsessed-writing-quality-ignorant type of criticism that prevails among comic fans sometimes.

We entertain ourselves with a fictional world if we start discarding past CLASSICS as meaningless because of some sensible (ressurecting may) and not so sensible (sins past) retacons what hope have we got?? Why would ANY writer try something exciting (at the plot/continuity level) when chances are the character WILL be brought back later.

 

[jaydawg]

Spider-man has awesome enemies. Especially Venom! Chyeah!

The last time Venom was even worth reading was around his third apperance.

 

[LongDong]

Spider-Man has the second best rogues gallery in comics.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

The last time Venom was even worth reading was around his third apperance.

damn straight. They should have kept him out way back then in my eyes, he hasn't had any new influence over spidey for decades and decades. God, he's rubbish..

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, he's not around anymore. Now there's just some imposter with the symbiote.

 

[Langoth]

Peter's rogues are not exceptionally bad with his new suit. None of them should realistically be much of a match for him now, so I'm pretty disappointed in that.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Not really.

This concept of "meaning" that comic book fans like to throw aroung in lieu of actual criticism is source of minor amusement to me, basically because they seem to tie in "meaning" with whether it affects the continuity or not. I've seen perfectly entertaining stories discarded as pointless because they don't alter continuity.

Which to me is such a ridiculous way to judge the meaning of a story. Meaning to me should be what it says either about the characters or an idea the author is trying to convey or even just how entertaining the story is, any affects on continuity should come as a RESULT of these criteria not as of itself (naturally i'm generalising btw).

Questions discarding of a perfectly good story as meaningless because of comic book retaconning comes across to me as an example of this small minded continuity-obsessed-writing-quality-ignorant type of criticism that prevails among comic fans sometimes.

We entertain ourselves with a fictional world if we start discarding past CLASSICS as meaningless because of some sensible (ressurecting may) and not so sensible (sins past) retacons what hope have we got?? Why would ANY writer try something exciting (at the plot/continuity level) when chances are the character WILL be brought back later.

And because people would like things to STICK in the Spider-Man mythos that makes comic readers obsessed and ignorant?

I don't know if you've ever read Amazing Spider-Man # 400 and then read the piece of crap story that said, "Oh yeah, by the way, the Aunt May that died in the pages of # 400 is an actor. The real Aunt May has been held captive by the Green Goblin." That's the most ******ed thing I've ever heard in my entire life.

# 400 was an amazing story that had a beautiful send off for a long time character. Yes, a character who has appeared in the book since 1962. The meaning of it has nothing to do with whether it sticks into continuity or not. It has to do with the craptastic way that it was retconned and how the CREATORS, J.M. DeMatteis and Mark Bagley, had their story ruined because the head honchos at Marvel wanted her alive again.

So, lets come up with a really crappy explanation and tarnish an amazing issue?

Hey, if you don't like that Aunt May died in # 400...whatever. But you can't deny the fact that # 400 is a great send off for her and that the retcon of her death was STUPID.

 

[XwolverineX]

Venom is cool always. But only as EDDIE ****IN' BROCK.

 

[LongDong]

ok so someone fill me in, what is up with Venom now? He is on someone besides Brock?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No, Venom no longer exists because Venom was the symbiote and Eddie Brock. Two specific entities who merged into one. Now there's the symbiote and Mac Gargan.

 

[Darthphere]

No, Venom no longer exists because Venom was the symbiote and Eddie Brock. Two specific entities who merged into one. Now there's the symbiote and Mac Gargan.

Which sucks.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes, it does. Thanks again, Millar.

 

[Dread]

I agree with some people here that not all of Spider-Man's rogues need a sweeping, generalizing change to become viable. Some of them just need tweaks, or others just need to have an few more memorable outings.

Some of the ideas about Black Tarantula are interesting, although the problem with B.T. is that he, like many things of the late 90's, suffered under the weight of some of the problems of that era. He was in Spidey books during the 1-2 years that were between "Clone Saga" and the "Reboot", which are hardly fodder for essentials. It had NINJAS for god's sake, and excuses for team-ups with the X-Men. B.T. also reminded me of a pretty straight rip-off of Bane; 7-foot tall Hispanic thug who can easily maul the hero and yet has a sort of chilling cunning to his ways, and a conscience that exists to let him leave the hero alive for plot convience. Robbie Robertson was his "old friend" or something, sort of like Tombstone was, but this connection was never revealed (Robbie, like almost all of Spidey's supporting cast, has gone into limbo with Peter being a teacher, with no new supporting cast members to replace him. I'd have thought that teaching at a high school would provide fodder for tons of new supporting faces, like fellow teachers, superintendants, the principal, notable students, but what do I know? I don't get paid 5 figures an issue). That's not to say that Black Tarantula can't be built up as a manipulator, as that was what he did before; in fact, DeFalco spent almost TOO MUCH TIME building him up, with clues that often contradicted each other. True, Marvel COULD simply find a way to learn from their mistakes with some characters, but Marvel isn't in the business of learning from mistakes. They shelf mistakes, pretend they never happened and then truck out those same mistakes again, maybe 2-5 years later with some new bows and technique, and hope it flys THIS time. Sort of like when The Shredder would sic Bebop and Rocksteady at the Ninja Turtles, no matter how many times they failed.

I wouldn't mind someone amping B.T. though; Spidey could use a "Bane" figure. I'm all for replacing the much-overused Norman Osborn.

Some repeated ideas:

Hydro-Man: In my very first fan-fic, I had him find a new "purpose" by wanting to become a sort of "extreme terrorist" who was angry about water pollution and sought to merge with the ocean to make the world pay for it. The problem was that despite his new ideology (which won him the support of some extreme "eco-protesters"), he was still a thug who wouldn't care what his power fluctuations did to the ocean itself.

Scorpion: The basis of my longest fan-fiction about 2-3 years ago, my idea was to strip away what ruined him from the start; the "killer instinct" that reduced a once clever P.I. into a raging thug whose anger could always be exploited, who had no new ideas, and whose only advantage was a slight physical strength advantage. In the story, he used head-meds to ease his "insanity" symptoms, which made him more cold and calculating mentally. He was able to use the body of someone stronger than Spider-Man with the brains of an expert detective for a very dangerous combination. And of course, the mechanical tail. The point is, Scorpion could have been Spidey's "opposite match" years before Venom if he'd been handled a little differently.

Shocker: I see him as a low-level Techno, someone who has a "knack" for building gadgets out of rubbish, which is how he made his "vibro-shock" units. His speciality is building gear that revolves around wave vibrations, so we'll stick with that. I see him as a shrewd "robber" baron who really isn't out for revenge or power, but to make a dishonest buck. Take a bit of an example from some of Flash's rogues, and maybe have him lead a very small band of "masters of evil" who basically run around other states and commit robberies. Shocker's taken enough beatings that he may want to assemble a loose knit "rogues" band (especially after he was just captured by the Young Avengers).

Mysterio: subject of a fan-fic I haven't written yet, a good gimmick for him could be to want to drive Spider-Man "insane" as a sort of "act" to prove that everything Spider-Man stands for is nothing but an illusion...and Mysterio is the Master of Illusion.

 

[LongDong]

So now Scorpion has the alien, how has that changed him?

 

[Ben Urich]

Spider-Man's rogues can suck it, that's what I think.

 

[gildea]

Hey, if you don't like that Aunt May died in # 400...whatever. But you can't deny the fact that # 400 is a great send off for her and that the retcon of her death was STUPID.

Its not a fact its an opinion.
(the retacon IMO was stupid, but she did need to be brought back to life)
Bottom line may is too important to the spidey mythos to be allowed to stay dead.
There are still great stories about her to be written and its not looking at the bigger picture keeping her dead.

I did like #400 and still do.

And because people would like things to STICK in the Spider-Man mythos that makes comic readers obsessed and ignorant?

No, but using that as the main means to judge the quality of a story does. And using it as the judge of 'meaning' in a story is postively ludicrous.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I think they should bring back Kaine and give him the symbiote, and finally let the symbiote get what it wants, parker (of sorts).

let Kaine also show he has the will to subdue it, a factor parker never thought possible

and let's have kaine healed of his degenerative illness except for the initial scar by his eye.

he keeps spidey's old black costume except for spider design and central spider are now red instead of white.

Then parker can truelly have an anti-spiderman that takes all the parts of him he hates and focus it on something rather than jealousy and rejection and Kaine can go after all the people that once made parker's life a misery. I wish uncle's ben's killer was alive because that would be kaine's main focus, along with harry osborn, jjj, flash thompson etc, so spidey would have to not only protect his friends but also his enemies.

venom has been lacking with depth for a while and giving the symbiote to gargan isn't goign to get it back...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I actually wouldn't mind if Kaine ended up with the symbiote. It still wouldn't be Venom, but it'd be better than Gargan and maybe even better than Brock.

 

[LongDong]

OK, who is Kaine? Man I have been out of the Spider-Man loop for too long, also how as the Symbiote changed Scorpion?

 

[SpideyInATree]

Its not a fact its an opinion.
(the retacon IMO was stupid, but she did need to be brought back to life)
Bottom line may is too important to the spidey mythos to be allowed to stay dead.
There are still great stories about her to be written and its not looking at the bigger picture keeping her dead.

I did like #400 and still do.

It's not an opinion. Amazing Spider-Man # 400 is a beautiful issue that was a perfect send off for such a great character like Aunt May. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

And its a fact that Marvel brought her back in the MOST STUPID FASHION EVER!!

Like I said, if you don't think she was supposed to die in the first place, WHATEVER! That's an OPINION. But you CANNOT deny that Amazing Spider-Man # 400 is a great send off for her and the retcon was DUMB. It's a fact.

No opinion about it. I'm not speaking from my feelings but from the standpoint of what it must be like for the guys who worked hard to make that book possible, and then have it taken away and MEAN NOTHING!

The character is too important? What stories can we see with her? Recently the only thing I've seen she has contributed was getting kidnapped by Norman Osborn and her having the hots for the Avengers BUTLER. So, a plot device that has happened a million times and a plot of two old people knocking boots.

How much can you explore with a character like Aunt May before it comes time to take her out of the story? It gets a little creepy when a guy who's going on the age of 30 is still doddling over his old Aunt like he's still a ten year old boy.

 

[gildea]

It's not an opinion. Amazing Spider-Man # 400 is a beautiful issue that was a perfect send off for such a great character like Aunt May. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Evidently you simply don't understand the meaning of fact or opinion.
Given the ridiculousness of the above statement I hereby give up.

No opinion about it. I'm not speaking from my feelings but from the standpoint of what it must be like for the guys who worked hard to make that book possible, and then have it taken away and MEAN NOTHING!

aside from this bit here that is, unless you know anyone that worked on asm #400 or have reference to them saying something you can only speak from your own feelings. At this point i would ask for proof of what you think about those that worked on asm #400 but given the previous bit I quoted i'm sure its a waste of our time.

Anyway peace