What does WW need (RT score/Box Office) to give the DCEU?

[The Guard]

Never confuse box office gross with popularity. That depends on all sorts of things from hype to brand recognition. If you look deeper into the numbers, you see a totally different picture. BvS opened big indicating people were interested in seeing the Trinity fighting together for the first time, but had record numbers of drops. That WOULD NOT have happened if audiences liked it. As a result of that, the movie didn't even break $900 million worldwide, which was totally a disappointment. The last two Batman films did a billion dollars on their own, one of which was banned in China. Throw in Superman and Wonder Woman and it drops by $130 million? That's not good.

I think we all know that Nolan's Batman films didn't just do a billion dollars for the last two just because Batman was in them.

Beyond that, we're using numbers to prove opinions now?

I think the problem with ALICE was more along the lines of there being six years between films. I don't think people cared anymore.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

A good example of a comic property that paid for the sins of its predecessor is Ninja Turtles. The 2014 film was a huge success! It beat GOTG on its second weekend! Fans loved it - well, maybe not. At least they didn't love it enough to come out for the sequel, which experienced a catastrophic BO drop despite better reviews. As we saw also with last summer's Alice sequel, a poorly reviewed hit may not be a strong foundation for a franchise.

Those are great examples.

The one that I think best compares to the DCEU is Star Wars, and with BvS specifically, The Phantom Menace. BvS was a film that people were waiting forever for and it was the first Batman movie since the extremely popular TDKT. TPM was the first Star Wars movie in two decades since the beloved classic trilogy. Both had a ton of hype going in and both had huge opening weekends, despite poor reviews and audience reaction. And much like BvS, fans of TPM constantly said about how popular it was because it made so much money.

The Phantom Menace ended up doing $983.6 million, which was phenomenal at the time. Attack of the Clones? $640.9 million. A drop of over $340 million. Ouch! If it can happen to Star Wars, the biggest and most beloved franchise of them all, it can happen to any franchise.

 

[The Guard]

And SITH made $840 something, so it's also possible for sequels to make more.

Sure, a drop CAN happen, but is it really likely for JUSTICE LEAGUE to drop $200 million from BVS?

Consider that SUICIDE SQUAD, with minimal core character involvement, made $745 million. After BVS got lousy reviews and was lambasted. After SQUAD itself got lousy reviews.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think we all know that Nolan's Batman films didn't just do a billion dollars for the last two just because Batman was in them.

Beyond that, we're using numbers to prove opinions now?

Not just numbers. They support all the other information we have (reviews, Cinemascore, etc.) as well. There is a preponderance of evidence showing that BvS was not liked by audiences. It is murkier with Suicide Squad.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

And SITH made $840 something.

Sure, it CAN happen, but is it really likely for JUSTICE LEAGUE to drop $200 million?

Consider that SUICIDE SQUAD, with minimal core character involvement, made $745 million. After BVS got lousy reviews. After SQUAD got lousy reviews.

Sith got a boost by being the trilogy closer where Anakin became Darth Vader. It had that extra hook. JL doesn't. We already saw the Trinity team up in BvS. And even with that hook, ROTS still didn't do anywhere near as well as TPM.

And yes, I think there is a very real chance that JL drops $200 million.

 

[Zarex]

To bring it back to Wondy, is it better for the franchise and the DCEU as a whole if the film gets a modest BO return with good reviews, like Batman Begins and Captain America: TFA? Or is it preferable for Gal to bring in the big bucks on weaker films like BvS and SS? I would argue the first scenario is much better for the DCEU.

 

[The Guard]

But JUSTICE LEAGUE won't likely get a boost from being the film where the heroes form the Justice League?

The Trinity and The Justice League are not remotely the same thing.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

To bring it back to Wondy, is it better for the franchise and the DCEU as a whole if the film gets a modest BO return with good reviews, like Batman Begins and Captain America: TFA? Or is it preferable for Gal to bring in the big bucks like BvS and SS? I would argue the first scenario is much better for the DCEU.

For WW, I definitely think the reviews are more important. They need to turn the ship around in terms of popular opinion. Otherwise the box office will eventually fall out from under them, it is just a matter of when.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

But JUSTICE LEAGUE won't likely get a boost from being the film where the heroes form the Justice League?

The Trinity and The Justice League are not remotely the same thing.

Yes, they are. The Trinity are what people care about. Nobody is showing up for Cyborg and Aquaman. They are showing up for Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. And they already did that. The Trinity IS the Justice League.

 

[The Guard]

It's clearly reviews. That shouldn't even be a question.

 

[FunkMiller]

To bring it back to Wondy, is it better for the franchise and the DCEU as a whole if the film gets a modest BO return with good reviews, like Batman Begins and Captain America: TFA? Or is it preferable for Gal to bring in the big bucks on weaker films like BvS and SS? I would argue the first scenario is much better for the DCEU.

Hmmm. Interesting. I'd say right now it needs to do the former, as you point out. After all, it's not like BvS or SS bombed. They have some leeway with box office, but desperately need a critical success.

 

[The Guard]

Yes, they are. The Trinity are what people care about. Nobody is showing up for Cyborg and Aquaman. They are showing up for Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. And they already did that.

We should probably take this to the DC thread.

I don't think that's true. I think plenty of people will want to see this new Aquaman, Cyborg and The Flash, but even if it were true:

Why wouldn't they show up for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman again?

AVENGERS fans didn't stop showing up after the first team up movie. They didn't stop showing up after the second team up movie, either.

I'm not following your logic here.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

We should probably take this to the DC thread.

Ok, but why wouldn't they show up for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman again?

AVENGERS fans didn't stop showing up after the first team up movie.

I'm not following your logic here.

Probably, but I will answer this last thing here. I'm leaving right away for the afternoon anyways.

The difference is that audiences LIKED the Avengers, so they wanted to see more. They didn't like BvS. Sure many people did, but not nearly enough.

 

[JKKS085]

I had no idea the budget was that low. 100/120M has to be some sort of record for a tentpole summer superhero blockbuster. It's probably a good thing as it lowers its break even point to a level that is obviously in range for the IP even in a fairly crowded release window, although I can see the film having issues to attract the big summer blockbuster crowd if it could not afford the eye-popping set pieces you've come to expect from these movies.

Critic wise, it needs to be certified fresh. No more excuses, it needs to be a critical hit.

 

[Bats123]

I think its gonna be a decent movie, it might have some of the same problems that have plagued every DCEU movie but i think overall, its gonna be the best one.

 

[writer0327]

Hmmm. Interesting. I'd say right now it needs to do the former, as you point out. After all, it's not like BvS or SS bombed. They have some leeway with box office, but desperately need a critical success.

I think DC will take a lackluster BO and a critical success for WW at this point. They really need this film to strike a chord with their target DCEU audience.

 

[writer0327]

And SITH made $840 something, so it's also possible for sequels to make more.

Sure, a drop CAN happen, but is it really likely for JUSTICE LEAGUE to drop $200 million from BVS?

Consider that SUICIDE SQUAD, with minimal core character involvement, made $745 million. After BVS got lousy reviews and was lambasted. After SQUAD itself got lousy reviews.

A couple of things on the Suicide Squad Box Office....

1. Suicide Squad was released in a vacuum, pretty much all alone with nothing released around it to really challenge it except....Sausage Party? It was a perfect release date for that film. WW doesn't have that luxury unfortunately.

2. I think non-comic fans really embraced SS and specifically the character of Harley Quinn. I know people personally who absolutely adored Harley Quinn from the old B:TAS cartoon and couldn't wait to see this film, regardless of how good it was. And honestly, Margot Robbie did a good job in the role, so much so that they are fast-tracking GCS..

 

[Bats123]

A couple of things on the Suicide Squad Box Office....

1. Suicide Squad was released in a vacuum, pretty much all alone with nothing released around it to really challenge it except....Sausage Party? It was a perfect release date for that film. WW doesn't have that luxury unfortunately.

2. I think non-comic fans really embraced SS and specifically the character of Harley Quinn. I know people personally who absolutely adored Harley Quinn from the old B:TAS cartoon and couldn't wait to see this film, regardless of how good it was. And honestly, Margot Robbie did a good job in the role, so much so that they are fast-tracking GCS..

i think JL has like 3-4 weeks to itself before Star Wars, there's very minor competition like Coco and Murder on the Orient Express, i bet its gonna make 500-600 million in those weeks, regardless of critical reception

 

[harlequinade]

And SITH made $840 something, so it's also possible for sequels to make more.

Sure, a drop CAN happen, but is it really likely for JUSTICE LEAGUE to drop $200 million from BVS?

Consider that SUICIDE SQUAD, with minimal core character involvement, made $745 million. After BVS got lousy reviews and was lambasted. After SQUAD itself got lousy reviews.

I'd say even more is very likely.

Suicide Squad was the third movie in DCEU. MoS' reception was mixed and BvS' was terrible, but all the amazing trailers, all the talk how Squad is gonna turn things around created enough hope and goodwill that even when the reviews hit people still assumed it was just critics being biased and went to see it in the cinema anyways. But personally I don't know anyone who liked it enough to actually pay for it the second time. After 2 movies getting a horrible reception a lot of people will not be there to give DCEU the third chance.

 

[jmc]

We should probably take this to the DC thread.

I don't think that's true. I think plenty of people will want to see this new Aquaman, Cyborg and The Flash, but even if it were true:

Why wouldn't they show up for Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman again?

AVENGERS fans didn't stop showing up after the first team up movie. They didn't stop showing up after the second team up movie, either.

I'm not following your logic here.

Because the characters were unlikeable the last time. Just because it's Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman doesn't mean people actually care about this particular interpretation of them.

 

[Greenlite]

I think DC will take a lackluster BO and a critical success for WW at this point. They really need this film to strike a chord with their target DCEU audience.

Reminds me of X-Men First Class

They need a First Class, almost a bomb at the box office but incredible critical reception, and that feed onto Days of Future Past (which was a great film as well).

 

[2kt09]

Reminds me of X-Men First Class

They need a First Class, almost a bomb at the box office but incredible critical reception, and that feed onto Days of Future Past (which was a great film as well).

The circumstances are very different for something like that to go down.
If a cbm is great with that high of an IP, it will make bank.

 

[Greenlite]

The circumstances are very different for something like that to go down.
If a cbm is great with that high of an IP, it will make bank.

That's WB's advantage of DC brand+WW, so it'll make more profit than First Class no matter what, but a great critical reception (AND an awesome mid credit scene!) can generate a lot of buzz for the next one!

 

[Lantern Venom]

And SITH made $840 something, so it's also possible for sequels to make more.

Sure, a drop CAN happen, but is it really likely for JUSTICE LEAGUE to drop $200 million from BVS?
.

JL is going to be the true measuring stick for the DCEU's future, not Wonder Woman. WW is a period piece with a rumored dark tone. It's not going to appeal to everyone, so I'll be shocked if it eclipses BvS's haul or is even comparable to JL.

 

[Jekecy]

Sure, a drop CAN happen, but is it really likely for JUSTICE LEAGUE to drop $200 million from BVS?

Consider that SUICIDE SQUAD, with minimal core character involvement, made $745 million. After BVS got lousy reviews and was lambasted. After SQUAD itself got lousy reviews.

BvS and SS were essentially their own entities so I don't think their performances can be directly compared (even with their respective sequels).

Plus I think the marketing and brand-awareness was just too strong to deter audiences for their "introduction" into these worlds. Now that they've had a taste, we'll see how well the reception really was. Benefit of the doubt and pure intrigue will no longer be the driving forces in sales this time around.