Retrospective: The DCEU: The Good, The Bad, The Divisive

[kguillou]

Hello, friends. With the release of the Flash, which is by all accounts the closing chapter of the DC Extended Universe and fittingly released on the tenth anniversary of Man of Steel --the beginning of the DCEU, I figured we'd have retrospective thread to reflect on what I think can be easily labeled as the craziest, most divisive film franchise in movie history.

Built to compete with Marvel Studios' MCU, the DCEU was inorganically built out of Man of Steel which was intended to just be the start of a singular Superman trilogy. But in the afterglow of The Avengers' massive success DC entrusted Zack Snyder to build out the Justice League--and quick. And what followed were a series of massively divisive films that pleased some, angered some, or made some indifferent.

But whats interesting is even after Zack Snyder's departure after the infamous JL debacle, DC's filmmakers just could not seem to make four quadrant hits that pleased audiences, critics, fans and generated lots of money at the box office like Marvel seemed to effortlessly do. Some were successfully financially but were critically panned, some were critical darlings but flopped at BO, some did OK (Shazam) all around. To date, only Wonder Woman 2017 seems to be the most clear cut four quadrant winner out of the 14 film bunch.

So what are everyone's thoughts on this universe overall looking back? What went wrong? Was it all Zack Snyder's fault? Is it Warner Bros' fault? Are the problems deeper rooted? Why couldnt the filmmakers post-Snyder seem to make this work still? Do you even care? Are you like me and enjoyed this wacky, chaotic universe for the crazy niche experiment that it was? Lets reflect on this crazy-ass cinematic universe.

 

[-Arya-]

This whole debacle pushed me away from being a DC fan, and more generally made me indifferent to superheroes (Phase 4 Marvel also greatly contributed to this.) Now all these years later I look back and only laugh at the incompetence across the board from Zack Snyder to the WB executives. Nobody had any idea what to do.

 

[psylockolussus]

Wonder Woman, Aquaman and The Flash are passable to me.

I know The Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey weren't critical failures but both films did Nothing to win back the interest of the public. They should made The Flash and sequels for the big five first and redeem Justice League with a new film. WW84 was a disappointment but they should have delayed it to Q4 of 2021. Its boX office numbers are unfortunate.

Zack Snyder's movies are mediocre, the worst director when to comes to DC films. Shazam is forgettable and its sequel didn't help. Black Adam having a solo film is just random and was made solely because of the Rock. And while some of these films are thrilling critics and audience alike, Wb managed to make a stand alone Joker and another Batman reboot a hit... Yeah DC is a mess.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

There's so much, isn't there. Like everyone, so much has gone through my head over the years as to how this all happened, to the point where it's hard to remember it all! But to be going on with...

Zack Snyder. I'm not a Snyder hater. I love Watchmen, I like 300, I like Sucker Punch. I was intrigued when he was announced as captain of the ship. With Nolan's early involvement I thought we were really going to have something. And if Nolan had been directly and assertively involved in the storytelling I think we could have had. But as it went on Nolan's involvement appeared minimal, and Snyder was left to his own devices to pull plot elements and visual images from various comics just because they were 'cool'. The DCEU needed more. This was supposed to be a saga, a connecting narrative, with characters who have been loved by so many for so long. They're now a huge part of mainstream popular culture. They're up there with Bond, Star Wars, and Harry Potter, and there are high expectations. The days of makers being able to say 'It's only a comic book movie' are gone. People go for the story as much as for the spectacle. You've got to nail both.

I'm sure I'll come back to this

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Okay, so post-BvS...

It seemed that everything WB did was a knee-jerk reaction to Snyder's failed approach (despite the fact that for some reason they were letting him continue with Justice League). They didn't seem so much concerned with the right approach, just a different approach. So we got movies with very different tones (say Wonder Woman and Shazam!, or Suicide Squad and Aquaman). Not a problem in itself (Captain America: The Winter Soldier certainly has a different feel to Ant-Man), but they didn't feel like they were part of the same universe. If the studio hadn't announced them as being connected I don't think the GA would have thought they were. Which is weird, seeing as we kept hearing how WB was busting a gut to have a shared continuity. The actual films themselves were the equivalent of an ensemble cast of actors who have no chemistry together. The parts didn't make up a whole. And whether you like the MCU or not, there's no denying that they made a very successful 'whole'.

 

[Boom]

Haven't really cared about DC on film since 2016, with the exception of the first Wonder Woman, Joker, The Suicide Squad, and The Batman.

Seven years of indifference. I want my passion back.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Haven't really cared about DC on film since 2016, with the exception of the first Wonder Woman, Joker, The Suicide Squad, and The Batman.

Seven years of indifference. I want my passion back.

Wonder Woman, Joker, and The Batman are the last three DC movies I'd put as top tier (yet to see The Flash).

 

[kguillou]

Do we also think guys that this is a case study of perhaps too much autonomy for the directors and creatives involved? I know as film fans we always lobby for the studios to not meddle with directors’ visions and stuff but perhaps alot of these directors post Snyder just werent given the right notes to adhere by in order to make successful movies.

Like, WW84 for example, that movie is clearly 100% a Patty Jenkins movie and its the movie she wanted to make but maybe someone should have stepped in and said “ok, Patty here are a few things you cant do here…” Movies are a collaborative process and unless youre a Nolan or a Spielberg or Cameron you have to work with the producers to make sure youre making a four quadrant product.

 

[The Batman]

Overall, the DCEU was a series of missed opportunities that further cemented the reputation that DC is a joke when it comes to non Bat related live action films. It fumbled several things that could've made WB billions: A Superman reboot, the first ever live action film meeting between Superman and Batman, The Justice League, and a solo Flash movie.

IMO, even more than an billion dollar Aquaman flick, It's greatest success was finally getting Wonder Woman an iconic live action film. It's a miracle, or rather a testment to Patty Jenkins that she was able to work with Gal Gadot's limitations and really make her shine.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Do we also think guys that this is a case study of perhaps too much autonomy for the directors and creatives involved? I know as film fans we always lobby for the studios to not meddle with directors’ visions and stuff but perhaps alot of these directors post Snyder just werent given the right notes to adhere by in order to make successful movies.

Like, WW84 for example, that movie is clearly 100% a Patty Jenkins movie and its the movie she wanted to make but maybe someone should have stepped in and said “ok, Patty here are a few things you cant do here…” Movies are a collaborative process and unless youre a Nolan or a Spielberg or Cameron you have to work with the producers to make sure youre making a four quadrant product.

I don't care who the director is. If they're making a film that's part of a shared universe, I think it's not only understandable but absolutely right that they be given notes, certain beats that their movie has to hit. Standalones like TDKT, that's different. But with a shared universe any creator has to fully realise and accept that they're playing in someone else's sandbox.

 

[Salutations]

Reflecting upon the DCEU as a whole, the films' successes, and lack of, remind me of their comic book counterparts. The DCEU multiverse, not just in terms of depiction but also application, parallels the same method that had to be used for comic books in the past. Both in terms of servicing a story, as well as creating a clean slate.

When you look at individual comic book series, comic book writers and artists borrow some elements from one another and disregard others. Similar to how Jeph Loeb viewed Batman: The Long Halloween as a continuation of Batman: Year One, but Frank Miller does not see B:TLH as an in-universe story for his continuity. Most comic book stories, up to a point, are eventually canonized through a major event/story, à la Crisis on Infinite Earths or Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?

When that practice is applied to the DCEU, viewers just have to do mental gymnastics in terms of the movies' viewing order and think of them as their own series/timelines. Similar to how comic book runs take place. There are a lot of inconsistencies throughout the DCEU proper when viewed as a whole. When viewed as individual series/timelines, there isn't.

1st Series/Timeline by Zack Snyder:
Man of Steel
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Ultimate Edition)
Zack Snyder's Justice League

In the last Knightmare scene the Joker tells Batman, "I often wonder, how many alternate timelines do you destroy the world because... frankly, you don't have the cojones to die yourself." This makes a point that future Flash has been time traveling through multiple timelines, as first seen in BvS: DoJ(UE). All that time traveling has affected/changed multiple events in the DCEU's past and future. To me, those events and dialogue establish that there are different series/timelines within the DCEU films afoot.

2nd Series/Timeline by Patty Jenkins:
Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman 1984

3rd Series/Timeline by David Ayer, Cathy Yan, and James Gunn:
Suicide Squad
Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)
The Suicide Squad
(Peacemaker)

4th Series/Timeline by James Wan:
Aquaman
Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom

5th Series/Timeline by David F. Sandberg and Jaume Collet-Serra:
Shazam!
Shazam! Fury of the Gods
Black Adam

Conclusion/Epilogue by Andy Muschietti:
The Flash
Reinforces the multiple timelines Flash has been creating since BvS: DoJ: UE and ZSJL. This film seems to work as an ending to all of the five previous timelines/series and the DCEU as a whole. It also celebrates DC's film history.

If Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom works as a direct sequel to Aquaman and does not overtly allude to anything in the upcoming DCU, it will set its placement next to Aquaman. James Wan, the director, stated that it’s a standalone so I am keeping my fingers crossed that it is.

WB did not have intention for the DCEU to be considered as multiple series/timelines upon its inception after MoS. I’m guessing that WB is not aware of how well the DCEU as a whole inadvertently parallels comic book eras, with multiple ongoing storylines, imploding on themselves and having to be reset to start anew. It’s not a great business practice, but I consider it as a nice accident. Serendipity. This way of thinking of the DCEU as an analogy is not everyone’s cup of tea, but it works for me. Especially when considering that these are films based on comic books.

I didn’t mind the DCEU and in hindsight really like what it accidentally represents, in my mind, and what it has accomplished.

As for the future of DC, I’m wishing James Gunn and DC fans the best of luck when it comes to the DCU.

Being a Batman fan, I’m glad that Matt Reeves’ gets to continue his own story arc and really looking forward to what he has in store next.

Here’s a visual representation. Each DigiBook marks the beginning of a timeline/series and the standard releases that follow go along with the preceding DigiBook. I left a space for the AatLK standard release. The Flash will be placed after Black Adam since I’m treating The Flash as the conclusion for each series/timeline and DCEU as a whole.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Reflecting upon the DCEU as a whole, the films' successes, and lack of, remind me of their comic book counterparts. The DCEU multiverse, not just in terms of depiction but also application, parallels the same method that had to be used for comic books in the past. Both in terms of servicing a story, as well as creating a clean slate.

When you look at individual comic book series, comic book writers and artists borrow some elements from one another and disregard others. Similar to how Jeph Loeb viewed Batman: The Long Halloween as a continuation of Batman: Year One, but Frank Miller does not see B:TLH as an in-universe story for his continuity. Most comic book stories, up to a point, are eventually canonized through a major event/story, à la Crisis on Infinite Earths or Batman: Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?

When that practice is applied to the DCEU, viewers just have to do mental gymnastics in terms of the movies' viewing order and think of them as their own series/timelines. Similar to how comic book runs take place. There are a lot of inconsistencies throughout the DCEU proper when viewed as a whole. When viewed as individual series/timelines, there isn't.

1st Series/Timeline by Zach Snyder:
Man of Steel
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Ultimate Edition)
Zack Snyder's Justice League

In the last Knightmare scene the Joker tells Batman, "I often wonder, how many alternate timelines do you destroy the world because... frankly, you don't have the cojones to die yourself." This makes a point that future Flash has been time traveling multiple timelines, as first seen in BvS: DoJ(UE). All that time traveling has affected/changed multiple events in the DCEU's past and future. To me, those events and dialogue establish that there are different series/timelines within the DCEU films afoot.

2nd Series/Timeline by Patty Jenkins:
Wonder Woman
Wonder Woman 1984

3rd Series/Timeline by David Ayer, Cathy Yan, and James Gunn:
Suicide Squad
Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)
The Suicide Squad
(Peacemaker)

4th Series/Timeline by James Wan:
Aquaman
Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom

5th Series/Timeline by David F. Sandberg and Jaume Collet-Serra:
Shazam!
Shazam! Fury of the Gods
Black Adam

Conclusion/Epilogue by Andy Muschietti:
The Flash
Reinforces the multiple timelines Flash has been creating since BvS: DoJ: UE and ZSJL. This film seems to work as an ending to all of the five previous timelines/series and the DCEU as a whole. It also celebrates DC's film history.

If Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom works as a direct sequel to Aquaman and does not overtly allude to anything in the upcoming DCU, it will set its placement next to Aquaman. James Wan, the director, stated that it’s a standalone so I am keeping my fingers crossed that it is.

WB did not have intention for the DCEU to be considered as multiple series/timelines upon its inception after MoS. I’m guessing that WB is not aware of how well the DCEU as a whole inadvertently parallels comic book eras, with multiple ongoing storylines, imploding on themselves and having to be reset to start anew. It’s not a great business practice, but I consider it as a nice accident. Serendipity. This way of thinking of the DCEU as an analogy is not everyone’s cup of tea, but it works for me. Especially when considering that these are films based on comic books.

I didn’t mind the DCEU and in hindsight really like what it accidentally represents, in my mind, and what it has accomplished.

As for the future of DC, I’m wishing James Gunn and DC fans the best of luck when it comes to the DCU.

Being a Batman fan, I’m glad that Matt Reeves’ gets to continue his own story arc and really looking forward to what he has in store next.

Here’s a visual representation. Each DigiBook marks the beginning of a timeline/series and the standard releases that follow go along with the preceding DigiBook. I left a space for the AatLK standard release. The Flash will be placed after Black Adam since I’m treating The Flash as the conclusion for each series/timeline and DCEU as a whole.

View attachment 66389

That's an interesting way to look at it. As you say, far from what the studio originally wanted/intended. A difference is that with the comics you know when a reboot event is coming. It's announced and presented as such. But this here is more subjective; fans have to perform those 'mental gymnastics' to try to make sense of it all. And GAs don't have that comics background to help them get their heads around it.

 

[Salutations]

I completely agree. I explained the way I view the DCEU to my brother-in-law(he's an avid comic book reader) and he completely understood it without missing a beat.

When I talked to my wife who just watches comic book movies when they look interesting to her, I could tell that she would not think about it once our conversation was over.

 

[Primal Slayer]

The DCEU was set up to fail from the beginning and only continued to fail as a whole since every director they brought in weren't interested in Snyders vision and deliberately went out of their way to ignore and contradict it.

 

[psylockolussus]

The new DCinematic Universe should be like this:

2025: Superman Legacy
2025: Wonder Woman Legacy
2026: Green Lantern Legacy
2027: The Flash Legacy
2027: Aquaman Legacy
2028: Batman Legacy
2028: The Justice League

But yikes even I, won't eXactly know what to do. The current movie version of Wonder Woman, The Flash, Superman and Aquaman are still so recent. I guess they could easily get away with another new Superman just like Batman, but the rest? They have to nail the casting and win the audience all over again.

Then there's The Batman and Joker, DCU is being rebooted when there's still DC films not connected to the upcoming movie verse in 2024 and beyond. Then the Suicide Squad spin off shows are still around. And wth is the Authority?

A mess in general.

 

[Primal Slayer]

The new DCinematic Universe should be like this:

2025: Superman Legacy
2025: Wonder Woman Legacy
2026: Green Lantern Legacy
2027: The Flash Legacy
2027: Aquaman Legacy
2028: Batman Legacy
2028: The Justice League

But yikes even I, won't eXactly know what to do. The current movie version of Wonder Woman, The Flash, Superman and Aquaman are still so recent. I guess they could easily get away with another new Superman just like Batman, but the rest? They have to nail the casting and win the audience all over again.

Then there's The Batman and Joker, DCU is being rebooted when there's still DC films not connected to the upcoming movie verse in 2024 and beyond. Then the Suicide Squad spin off shows are still around. And wth is the Authority?

A mess in general.

We had what? 3 Spiderman franchises within a 10 year period? Superman has been steadily on our screens big or small at maximum every 6 years since 1987. Went through 3 different Batmans in the 90s, 4 years between Nolans Batman and BvS. 10 years between the solo films themselves.

WW/Aquaman/Flash can be rebooted easily within a 5 year period like Bats/Supes ahve.

 

[psylockolussus]

We had what? 3 Spiderman franchises within a 10 year period? Superman has been steadily on our screens big or small at maximum every 6 years since 1987. Went through 3 different Batmans in the 90s, 4 years between Nolans Batman and BvS. 10 years between the solo films themselves.

WW/Aquaman/Flash can be rebooted easily within a 5 year period like Bats/Supes ahve.

Rebooted in a sense that they will headline a solo film just a few years from now? I honestly doubt the Flash could carry another solo film in the neXt 5 years? Unless that has a budget less than $100 million.

Also easily? So why they couldn't launch Green Lantern and Black Adam easily? And it took years if not decades to launch a solo film for Aquaman, Wonder Woman and The Flash.

I'd like to see you run Warner Bros. Pictures from now on, since it would be easy for you.

 

[Isub_Zero]

The new DCinematic Universe should be like this:

2025: Superman Legacy
2025: Wonder Woman Legacy
2026: Green Lantern Legacy
2027: The Flash Legacy
2027: Aquaman Legacy
2028: Batman Legacy
2028: The Justice League

But yikes even I, won't eXactly know what to do. The current movie version of Wonder Woman, The Flash, Superman and Aquaman are still so recent. I guess they could easily get away with another new Superman just like Batman, but the rest? They have to nail the casting and win the audience all over again.

Then there's The Batman and Joker, DCU is being rebooted when there's still DC films not connected to the upcoming movie verse in 2024 and beyond. Then the Suicide Squad spin off shows are still around. And wth is the Authority?

A mess in general.

IMO As long as Gunn's in charge you won't see WW in the first 5 years of the DCU. I also think it'll be a miracle, as long as Gunn's in charge, if you'll see her in the next 10 years.

 

[Bayne]

Rebooted in a sense that they will headline a solo film just a few years from now? I honestly doubt the Flash could carry another solo film in the neXt 5 years? Unless that has a budget less than $100 million.

Also easily? So why they couldn't launch Green Lantern and Black Adam easily? And it took years if not decades to launch a solo film for Aquaman, Wonder Woman and The Flash.

I'd like to see you run Warner Bros. Pictures from now on, since it would be easy for you.

There's absolutely nothing about Wonder Woman's success that couldn't have been done a decade plus earlier had WB got off their asses and seriously tried.

Of course WB's repetitive incompetence towards superhero stuff in general certainly doesn't bode well for the future, either. All we can hope for is Gunn will prove to be one of their rare good choices.

 

[FunkMiller]

I will never change my opinion that DC should never have chased the shared universe format - because it never needed to.

Copy The Dark Knight trilogy:
Superman trilogy. Wonder Woman trilogy. Flash trilogy. Lantern trilogy.

Then maybe... maybe, cross 'em over.

The DCEU was destroyed before it got going by corporate greed in wanting to copy Marvel, and by Snyder's dreadful storytelling.

Wonder Woman was a great movie though.

 

[psylockolussus]

I don't think its just WB copying Marvel Studios but these characters interact with each other in plenty of media. So I can't blame them, for building a cinematic universe. The problem is they were all over the place and didn't follow a single plan that they would follow for years to come.

Imo in hindsight, WB should have focused coming up a trilogy for Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, DCEU Batman and Green Lantern, and then the occasional JL films. Instead of branching out to Suicide Squad, Birds of Prey, Shazam!, Black Adam, Blue Beetle, Joker, Batman Pattinson, Supergirl and those countless movies that didn't enter production like Cyborg and Nightwing.

They lacked direction. With Marvel Studios, at least they released a trilogy first for Iron Man, two solo films for Thor and Captain America before launching Guardians of the GalaXy. And if they had a complete rights for the Hulk, there would have been a trilogy for that character as well. Aside from the big 3, Marvel Studios already released a trilogy for Ant-Man, the Avengers, Guardians and Spider-Man.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Rebooted in a sense that they will headline a solo film just a few years from now? I honestly doubt the Flash could carry another solo film in the neXt 5 years? Unless that has a budget less than $100 million.

Also easily? So why they couldn't launch Green Lantern and Black Adam easily? And it took years if not decades to launch a solo film for Aquaman, Wonder Woman and The Flash.

I'd like to see you run Warner Bros. Pictures from now on, since it would be easy for you.

What is the point about Black Adam and GL? It took 10 years of production hell to deliver the most basic superhero movie we've seen in ages yet somehow Marvel launched a whole universe in that time. They chose to put GL on the backburner. They chose to not do WW for the longest time. We had 8 seasons of The Flash before getting a flash movie.

Launching and being successful are 2 different things so your comment doesn't make sense.

So yes, launching isn't hard as we're seeing now with Superman taking less than 2 years to develop. Gunn was hired less than a year ago. Has the script ready. Has the actors hired.

It's just called competence.

 

[kguillou]

My question for you guys though is looking at the post Snyder regime: Shazam, Birds of Prey, WW84, Shazam 2, Black Adam, The Suicide Squad, etc. What was the common denominator between those films that made them not work or land with audiences? I know we can partly blame the pandemic for some of them but do we think, for example, WW84 would have been a huge hit in a non pandemic world?

 

[Primal Slayer]

My question for you guys though is looking at the post Snyder regime: Shazam, Birds of Prey, WW84, Shazam 2, Black Adam, The Suicide Squad, etc. What was the common denominator between those films that made them not work or land with audiences? I know we can partly blame the pandemic for some of them but do we think, for example, WW84 would have been a huge hit in a non pandemic world?

Lack of Staying true to the characters, telling a larger than life story and one people feel some kimd of connection to is the common denominator imo.

WW84 was a success for what was going on. It still went on to be a top selling movie of 2021 so it likely would've done $600mill at the box office.

 

[psylockolussus]

What is the point about Black Adam and GL? It took 10 years of production hell to deliver the most basic superhero movie we've seen in ages yet somehow Marvel launched a whole universe in that time. They chose to put GL on the backburner. They chose to not do WW for the longest time. We had 8 seasons of The Flash before getting a flash movie.

Launching and being successful are 2 different things so your comment doesn't make sense.

So yes, launching isn't hard as we're seeing now with Superman taking less than 2 years to develop. Gunn was hired less than a year ago. Has the script ready. Has the actors hired.

It's just called competence.

But see thats all easy said than done. So you commented on my post that its "easy to relaunch/reboot Aquaman, Wonder woman, Flash" and then admitting you didn't even factor if it would be successful? Because launching / being successful are two different things... well duh. You have said that earlier. Now which producer/studio would have that mind set aside from you?

I'd like to see run over Dcu instead of James Gunn. Thinking its easy to launch, but nevermind if it would be successful....

:skeptical:

At least with your plan, I won't need to wait longer for a new version of Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Flash. Nevermind all the factors that go into movie making.