What happens when Marvel Run out of A-Listers?

[DrCosmic]

I think the key is to make audiences love new characters before getting rid of the old ones. Even though most people didn't know anything about Tony Stark before 2008, they got to love him through the movie. Even though almost nobody had ever even heard of the guardians, they have become very popular as well. Perhaps if Tony Stark, Steve Rogers and Thor were all gone in one movie and then the next they were like, "here are Wonder Man, Spectrum and Nova, now love them." that would turn off audiences. However, that's not what's happening. By the time those 3 are gone we'll probably still have the Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Ant-Man, Wasp, Black Panther, Bucky, Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, etc. to like and before those are gone new characters can be introduced of which hopefully some will be liked.

Indeed, they definitely can't just drop a whole team and then cue in a new team. A huge aspect of the 'handoff' is the mentorship angle, the passing of legitimacy to the new guy. The character has to, believably, give the newbie their blessing and give them something, a part of themselves in a way. It's a fade instead of a cut, essentially.

Beyond that, the hero has to fade out in a way that is appropriate. Having Rocky contract cancer like Adrian provides a thematic resonance that can't be captured otherwise. His fade out feels justified. The Doctor's regenesis is so well established that it feels like a victory for the character in a way, and since it is, technically, the same character, the handoff is built in.

The final bit is that the new hero has to establish themselves as uniquely, but not too uniquely awesome. A worthy successor, with emphasis on both words.

People are way overstating the importance of continuity. The character is far more important.

Audiences will accept recastings. We've seen it many times in other franchises, as well as this one with War Machine and Hulk. It won't be easy replacing RDJ, for sure. They certainly have to get the right replacement, but it is still a hundred times easier than putting someone else in the suit.

Iron Man IS Tony Stark. John or Jane Doe in the suit is not. Moviegoers will not accept someone new in the suit.

If Marvel tries that than the internet will explode in a fury that makes the response of Ghostbusters and Fant4stic look like afternoon tea with Grandma. I guarantee that.

Continuity is kind of what made the Avengers, and that's what made the MCU what it is. I'm not sure how to overstate that kind of significance to this franchise. Audiences will also accept replacements. We've also seen that many times in other franchises, including this one with War Machine and Bucky taking up their friends' trademark weapons and abilities in their absence.

It really is the same problem either direction, and RDJ as Tony Stark is kind of case in point. Whoever is in the suit, whether the screenplay calls them Tony Stark or not, will be percieved as John or Jane Doe in the suit, unless you can convince the audience to transfer their focus from RDJ/Tony Stark to a new person. The techniques needed to pass the torch work the same for actors or characters, because the core issue is ingratiating the audience to this new person.

I think that transfer is an easier sell when you have Tony Stark on hand to give his blessing to and work with whomever is succeeding him. This also allows the MCU to continue in real time, as opposed to adopting some weird stretch time like the comics. This is also why Rhodey and Hulk's recasting worked so well, because they intentionally, however quickly, had Tony pass them their respective torches.

The comparison with Ghostbusters and Fant4stic are great. One was new characters in the same roles done badly, and another was new actors in the same characters, done badly. Both can be done wrong, and those two failed for the same reasons: failing to capture the feeling of the original, no torch passing, no sendoff for the beloveds, and no semi-unique awesomeness for the new ones.

No matter how much you assure that transferring roles to new characters will result in flaming ruins, Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr. Who, Power Rangers, Creed and more did in fact happen. This is not to say that the James Bond approach is inherently bad, but it is just not the only way to go, and, honsetly, not resting everything on one character makes for a more successful and long lasting and resurgent franchise in general. And in this case, I believe the soft reboot necessary for the James Bond approach to work here just won't.

 

[MbJ]

That's the Champions, not the Avengers. And those aren't new IP.

Some of them? No. Ms. Marvel is effectively a new IP though given that Carol Danvers will not be using the name.

Right now the only A-listers who Marvel have left to develop are Blade, Moon Knight, She-Hulk, Shang Chi and the Thunderbolts. Three of the above are rumored for upcoming TV series but there is no indication from anywhere that She-Hulk or Shang Chi is going to be in the MCU in the near future.

I know that Marvel knocked it out of the park with Ant-Man and are doing a Cloak and Dagger story so adapting more B-listers like Black Knight and Wonder Man isn't impossible but both of those characters lack enemies and I can't foresee a sequel for either.

That's not even getting into C-listers like Sentry, Blue Marvel and Tigra who have next to no solo material to choose from.

Am I the only person who wants to see Marvel stick to sequels and spin-offs of existing characters with Phase 4?

I don't mean this to sound rude, but pretty much all the people you mentioned are on the same general tier of popularity as far as a movie is concerned. Movies are aimed at a mass audience that by and large, does not read comics. Getting beyond the fact that it's highly (almost hilariously) dubious to claim Shang-Chi and Moon Knight are A-listers, they aren't any more notable or more popular than Blue Marvel, Tigra, Black Knight, or any of the other supposed lower tier heroes you mentioned.

Once you get past a very specific, select group of superheroes, pretty much every Marvel hero is "Who? Oh, that looks kinda cool" to most of the audience. And Marvel passed that point sometime around when they managed to successfully sell people on movies about Ant-Man and Rocket Raccoon.

 

[MbJ]

I think the key is to make audiences love new characters before getting rid of the old ones. Even though most people didn't know anything about Tony Stark before 2008, they got to love him through the movie. Even though almost nobody had ever even heard of the guardians, they have become very popular as well. Perhaps if Tony Stark, Steve Rogers and Thor were all gone in one movie and then the next they were like, "here are Wonder Man, Spectrum and Nova, now love them." that would turn off audiences. However, that's not what's happening. By the time those 3 are gone we'll probably still have the Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Ant-Man, Wasp, Black Panther, Bucky, Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, etc. to like and before those are gone new characters can be introduced of which hopefully some will be liked.

I suspect that's pretty much exactly what Marvel has been slowly building up to. They keep talking about Infinity War closing a chapter of the Marvel Universe while also saying there will be a new team of Avengers. More tellingly, despite the fact that for several years, they were aggressively pushing the "Big 6" as the face of the franchise in pretty much every single medium imaginable, they seem to be slowly backing away from that and highlighting other characters as part of the Avengers as well.

I would not at all be surprised if they use the second Infinity War movie to retire (or even kill off) some of the original 6 Avengers and then move forward with a new team primarily consisting of heroes from Phases 2 and 3, with maybe a few holdovers from the original group.

Hawkeye more than anyone I strongly suspect will either be retired or dead when this is all said and done. This could also open the door for a Young Avengers movie down the line.

 

[Kargo Warrior]

A-listers, B-listers, it's all a thing of the past. Either you know how to market and produce a film or you don't.

Guardians of the Galaxy made more than both The Amazing Spider-Man 1 and 2, partly because it was a lot better film, partly because it offered something genuine and fresh rather than yet another Peter Parker origin story. Just because you have Spider-Man, it doesn't mean much if it doesn't have a hook to it.

Excluding China where it wasn't released, Deadpool made more than the first film to include Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman together, even though it had no 3D and it was R rated.

Why? Because the marketing promised an uncompromising comedy, unlike anything we've had so far, while BvS looked like more of the same from Man of Steel, a decidedly polarizing film. Deadpool ended up being what the trailer promised and more, while BvS was a critical disaster, with terrible word of mouth.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I hope they retire Hawkeye rather than killing him, so the tv side has free reign with him and they could make a show that takes elements of what Hawkeye's comics have been since Matt Fraction but make them fit with the MCU version of Clint. Especially as my absolute favourite part about MCU Clint has been his fatherly/mentor role towards Wanda among others, which Renner plays really well, so introducing Kate would be good too. Who knows, maybe get Adriane Palicki in there too if she has nothing else to do.

 

[AlluAllu]

I think that Hawkeye might be the safest character in Infinity War. Renner has had least to do, therefore he might not be as bored with the role as his co-actors.

 

[Darepool]

A-listers, B-listers, it's all a thing of the past. Either you know how to market and produce a film or you don't.

Yeah, I agree for the most part, it is an outdated/outmoded concept. However the baseline for certain properties is definitely higher then others, before originality or quality even come into play, but this only applies tangibly to a few characters anyway.

 

[Dasher10]

Time will heal all things...

They should retire Iron Man Thor Cap and Hulk after phase 3/4. Then Spider Man Doc Strange Black Panther and Captain Marvel pick up the baton and then the next heroes step up, maybe Fantastic Four and X Men and then after 10-20 years from now audiences will miss The original Avengers so THEN they can reboot or recast etc

10-20? Seriously?

This thread was about new IP drying up. I feel like Marvel need to focus on sequels instead of new heroes with the next phase and stop the origin stories. I also dislike the idea of only doing trilogies. There's no reason why there can't be a fourth installment.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't really care what they do with the more minor characters like Quicksilver, Hawkeye, etc.

But if they get rid of the backbones of Marvel like Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Thor, then I'm done with the MCU completely. And I won't be the only one. I will spend my time and money elsewhere. That's basically the bottom line.

 

[MbJ]

This thread was about new IP drying up.

And what people are telling you is that it hasn't. Aside from some arbitrary measurement of who is or isn't an A-lister, there's nothing stopping them from mining more characters they already own.

You mentioned Black Knight and Tigra. You're telling me the studio that made the world give a crap about Groot, Rocket Raccoon, and Ant-Man couldn't make a movie about those two?

 

[Darepool]

I don't really care what they do with the more minor characters like Quicksilver, Hawkeye, etc.

But if they get rid of the backbones of Marvel like Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Thor, then I'm done with the MCU completely. And I won't be the only one. I will spend my time and money elsewhere. That's basically the bottom line.

They won't get rid of them, likely just move them into the background while characters like Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel and Black Panther take center stage. Semi-Retirement.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I don't really care what they do with the more minor characters like Quicksilver, Hawkeye, etc.

But if they get rid of the backbones of Marvel like Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Thor, then I'm done with the MCU completely. And I won't be the only one. I will spend my time and money elsewhere. That's basically the bottom line.

Have you watched Incredible Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man or Doctor Strange? Did you enjoy those movies?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Have you watched Incredible Hulk, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man or Doctor Strange? Did you enjoy those movies?

Yes, I did. But it doesn't mean I want to watch an Avengers movie with Ant-Man and Groot in the lead roles. They are compliments, not the main course.

 

[MbJ]

Given the popularity of Ant-Man's appearance in Civil War I'd be very surprised if he isn't made an Avenger

I hope they retire Hawkeye rather than killing him, so the tv side has free reign with him and they could make a show that takes elements of what Hawkeye's comics have been since Matt Fraction but make them fit with the MCU version of Clint. Especially as my absolute favourite part about MCU Clint has been his fatherly/mentor role towards Wanda among others, which Renner plays really well, so introducing Kate would be good too. Who knows, maybe get Adriane Palicki in there too if she has nothing else to do.

I would be interested in seeing the MCU do something with Kate Bishop but they already wrote themselves into a corner with Hawkeye. I don't think there's too much left to do with him unless you just have him in a mentor role.

The idea of him being the lovable loser from the Fraction series went out the window when they had him married on a farm with three kids.

 

[Zarex]

I don't really care what they do with the more minor characters like Quicksilver, Hawkeye, etc.

But if they get rid of the backbones of Marvel like Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Thor, then I'm done with the MCU completely. And I won't be the only one. I will spend my time and money elsewhere. That's basically the bottom line.

You could have some free time and extra cash available as early as 2018. My guess is at least one of the big three is going to bite the dust in the back-to-back Avengers films.

Personally, I have no interest in a connected cinematic universe in which there is only the illusion of change, characters stay young and vibrant forever and no one ever dies. I want to see these characters struggle against impossible odds and mourn their fallen allies. What I don't want is to see the MCU devolve into a tortured X-Men style continuity in which the plot of one film directly contradicts the one that follows.

If Feige and company crap on the carefully constructed continuity of the MCU in order to tell the same stories featuring the same characters over and over until the heat death of the universe I will spend my time and money elsewhere. And I won't be the only one.

 

[AlluAllu]

I don't think there's too much left to do with him unless you just have him in a mentor role.

The idea of him being the lovable loser from the Fraction series went out the window when they had him married on a farm with three kids.

He has three kids, who will eventually go to school. It might be interesting to explore normal kids who have a superhero-father. Could be a real tear-jerker, in a good way.

 

[frostanon]

I don't like sliding timescale, character in MCU should age, die/retire, face the difficulties of old age.

 

[Abudefduf]

Yeah, the MCU has the opportunity to give us something that the comic universe with its perpetual (and sometimes frustrating, if you ask me) status quo never will: a sense of passing time, and I'm all for it.

 

[MbJ]

You could have some free time and extra cash available as early as 2018. My guess is at least one of the big three is going to bite the dust in the back-to-back Avengers films.

They do keep talking about it closing the chapter on part of the MCU. And of course they already changed the line-up at the end of Age of Ultron (even if that was a bit of a fakeout all things considered).

 

[Stark Bauer]

I don't like sliding timescale, character in MCU should age, die/retire, face the difficulties of old age.

I like this idea but highly unlikely.

 

[Dasher10]

And what people are telling you is that it hasn't. Aside from some arbitrary measurement of who is or isn't an A-lister, there's nothing stopping them from mining more characters they already own.

You mentioned Black Knight and Tigra. You're telling me the studio that made the world give a crap about Groot, Rocket Raccoon, and Ant-Man couldn't make a movie about those two?

I feel like Black Knight COULD work if directed by Francois Girard. Something which details the various Black Knights up until Dane Whitman gets the sword from Nathan Garrett. No villain for Dane but villains for the rest to fight. A total change from the usual origin story.

I still can't see Black Knight getting a sequel because he lacks a strong rogues gallery. He has Proctor who's more of an Avengers villain. That's it.

Tigra is in an even more dire state where she has that much less material to work with. Black Knight and Wonder Man at least have some solo material to draw from and some enemies. Even then, Wonder Man would presumably be a one and done film with Simon fighting Grim Reaper. But other than those two, there aren't any other characters who have interesting enough origins to adapt.

I really feel like Marvel should give up on origin stories. Introduce new characters in ensembles. Do solo films for them as spin-offs.

 

[MbJ]

I still can't see Black Knight getting a sequel because he lacks a strong rogues gallery. He has Proctor who's more of an Avengers villain. That's it.

Tigra is in an even more dire state where she has that much less material to work with. Black Knight and Wonder Man at least have some solo material to draw from and some enemies. Even then, Wonder Man would presumably be a one and done film with Simon fighting Grim Reaper. But other than those two, there aren't any other characters who have interesting enough origins to adapt.

Them not having a strong rogues gallery doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. There are hundreds upon hundreds of villains in the comics, and only so many movies being made. If a character not having an arch nemesis is an issue, just give them someone else's villain who isn't currently being used.

And I still cannot stress enough that most audience members are not comic fans, so who exactly is gonna care that (just hypothetically) Proctor is an Avengers villain in the comics? Heck, if he isn't being used in the new Spider-Man film series by then, a Tigra film could use Kraven the Hunter as the villain.

 

[Stark Bauer]

^ listen to this man Marvel.

I salivate at the possibility of a Beetle (Spidey villain) vs. Ant Man movie.

Heck even a Black Panther vs. Kraven would be screen worthy.

Also Doctor Strange vs The Real Mandarin.

Hulk vs Spider Man would be a sight to behold.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

What happens when MCU run out of A-listers?

- Then MCU will introduce new characters and make A-listers out of them. Believe that.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I feel like Black Knight COULD work if directed by Francois Girard. Something which details the various Black Knights up until Dane Whitman gets the sword from Nathan Garrett. No villain for Dane but villains for the rest to fight. A total change from the usual origin story.

I still can't see Black Knight getting a sequel because he lacks a strong rogues gallery. He has Proctor who's more of an Avengers villain. That's it.

Tigra is in an even more dire state where she has that much less material to work with. Black Knight and Wonder Man at least have some solo material to draw from and some enemies. Even then, Wonder Man would presumably be a one and done film with Simon fighting Grim Reaper. But other than those two, there aren't any other characters who have interesting enough origins to adapt.

I really feel like Marvel should give up on origin stories. Introduce new characters in ensembles. Do solo films for them as spin-offs.

Yeah, imagine if an Iron Man movie used some non-character like Whiplash or even just made a regular guy like Aldrich Killian the main villain! Ant-Man has few villains, what if they'd just use a nobody from a single story like Darren Cross? Or if the villain in a Doctor Strange movie was not Mordo or Dormammu or Shuma-Gorath but some background character with pretty much no source material to draw from, like Kaecillius or something. That would be the end of the MCU for sure.

The idea of him being the lovable loser from the Fraction series went out the window when they had him married on a farm with three kids.

Didn't he get labeled a terrorist and locked up while he was supposed to be retired and go spend time with his kids? I could see his wife throwing him out after that, even if it's temporarily.

Yes, I did. But it doesn't mean I want to watch an Avengers movie with Ant-Man and Groot in the lead roles. They are compliments, not the main course.

But you liked watching a Guardians of the Galaxy movie with Star-Lord, Drax, Gamora, Rocket and Groot in the lead roles? What is the difference between that and, say, an Avengers movie with Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision and Winter Soldier?