Comics WhaT iF? Aunt May had died from the snipers bullet?

[Blader5489]

1) It retcons Sins Past. I can't believe JQ is so dead-set to keep this story in-continuity, and I feel bad for JMS that he got stuck holding the bag on this.

I don't know where you get that impression. It seemed more like keeping Sins Past in-continuity was a consequence of going with JQ's ending instead of JMS'. I don't think it was a case where Quesada demanded that Sins Past remain a part of Spidey's history.

2) I think it would have been better to go back a bit farther and have everything that changed carefully plotted out (as JMS said he did). That Marvel is now saying they've changed history from several years in the past (Marvel time) yet "nothing's changed" (except baby May, of course ) is beyond stupid. If I ever met one of the people behind this and was asked, I wouldn't hesitate to tell him or her how utterly illogical and ridiculous the entire premise is.

Basically, I'd prefer a slightly bigger retcon that had been plotted out than this slightly smaller one that's just being made up as the writers go along, not to mention the other massive holes I see in BND (some of which very well could have been present in JMS' version, too). Regardless, I wouldn't have been a happy Spidey reader after OMD one way or the other.

Here's the thing: JQ's ending is very contrived whereas JMS' ending "make sense" (within the context of the story). However, JMS' ending would have completely wiped out the last 30+ years of Spider-Man history. With the OMD we got, only certain things were changed, and the consequences were minimal (e.g. the marriage being changed to an intimate partner relationship is fine because it still keeps Peter and MJ together; Harry's death being changed to going into rehab works because it still keeps Harry out of the picture).

You think people are complaining now about OMD and the continuity problems it creates? If JMS had his way, they would have to completely rewrite the last 30-35 years of Spidey comics; not a case of "change this, to this" but rather the stories would have been rendered totally obsolete. That would have been a Crisis-level retcon. JQ's ending, despite being "illogical", manages to avoid that headache.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Basically, I'd prefer a slightly bigger retcon that had been plotted out than this slightly smaller one that's just being made up as the writers go along, not to mention the other massive holes I see in BND (some of which very well could have been present in JMS' version, too). Regardless, I wouldn't have been a happy Spidey reader after OMD one way or the other.

Aloha,
Glad you're admitting that.
Spidey rules

 

[Brand]

\
Aloha,
Of course a man will leave his mother and cling to his wife. Peter no exception, but to say that he does not Love Aunt May like a son loves his mother is an incredible insult.
Spidey rules

Oh, no doubt; Aunt May is the only mother Peter has ever had. I was just disagreeing with your original assessment that Peter cared for May above all others--in the pre-OMD world, of course.

I don't know where you get that impression. It seemed more like keeping Sins Past in-continuity was a consequence of going with JQ's ending instead of JMS'. I don't think it was a case where Quesada demanded that Sins Past remain a part of Spidey's history.

It was a consequence, but JQ didn't even try to see that Sins Past was retconned. His solution specifically left it in place because he didn't want to go back that far, even though there's not much difference between going back 20 years and going back 30.

From what I've seen (and this is just my opinion), the two Joes had different goals for JMS' final story. JMS wanted to undo Sins Past (he says he was under the impression he would be allowed to do so). JQ was only concerned about making Spidey single. If a logical solution to fix Sins Past came along, it might be allowed to go through. But JQ has done nothing to help that along, which stinks considering the mess was his idea.

Here's the thing: JQ's ending is very contrived whereas JMS' ending "make sense" (within the context of the story). However, JMS' ending would have completely wiped out the last 30+ years of Spider-Man history. With the OMD we got, only certain things were changed, and the consequences were minimal (e.g. the marriage being changed to an intimate partner relationship is fine because it still keeps Peter and MJ together; Harry's death being changed to going into rehab works because it still keeps Harry out of the picture).

You think people are complaining now about OMD and the continuity problems it creates? If JMS had his way, they would have to completely rewrite the last 30-35 years of Spidey comics; not a case of "change this, to this" but rather the stories would have been rendered totally obsolete. That would have been a Crisis-level retcon. JQ's ending, despite being "illogical", manages to avoid that headache.

Now you're doing what you accuse others of doing when they talk about OMD. If you read JMS' quote, he specifically says that not all of that continuity would be wiped out (hard to imagine, I know)--only small changes would be made. However, he said he spent a lot of time working on it, so maybe he actually had a plan that could have worked. We'll never know.

If you believe that a change 30 years ago would have wiped out all those stories, then you have to believe the same about a story from 20 years ago. Despite what JMS or anyone at Marvel says, any changes like doing away with the marriage will have ripples. I don't believe JMS could have fully plotted out the changes and kept them to a minimum, especially considering his track record with old continuity (Sins Past), but at least he tried. That's more than I can say for the effort behind the OMD/BND retcon.

Would JMS' version have been better? We can only speculate. All I can say is that I would have preferred to see his stab at the new reality than watch Marvel stick their heads in the sand and pretend everything is the same. If Marvel had tried to explain what was different rather than been willfully ignorant, I might have given BND a shot. If they want me to pay for their product, I at least expect them to put some thought into their stories and work out the kinks.

Aloha,
Glad you're admitting that.
Spidey rules

I've always said that I had more respect for JMS' solution that what we were given. That doesn't mean I would have actually LIKED it, of course.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Without actually seeing the story we're all just speculating (I'd love to see JMS' outline for it though), but I can say you'll almost never see any writer asking for his/her name to be taken off something for any reason. So whatever the outcome the result was so far from JMS' outline he wanted what should have been his swan song to Peter Parker to be completely eliminated of anything to be do with him. That's really saying something as JMS must have been plotting this story for some time (given that BiB and Civil War was streached out on him considerably) but the end result was enough to make him go to his boss and cause all sorts of waves. Not only that but then to rebut him in a public forum? Maybe the story would have been worse, and personally I could have done without a lot of the recent changes from sins past through now, but we do know the end result was completely offensive to the writer to the point he would engender ill will between himself and the world's biggest comic company and that says something in itself.

 

[Blader5489]

It was a consequence, but JQ didn't even try to see that Sins Past was retconned. His solution specifically left it in place because he didn't want to go back that far, even though there's not much difference between going back 20 years and going back 30.

There's a significant difference when you consider the ramifications of JMS' ending.

Now you're doing what you accuse others of doing when they talk about OMD. If you read JMS' quote, he specifically says that not all of that continuity would be wiped out (hard to imagine, I know)--only small changes would be made. However, he said he spent a lot of time working on it, so maybe he actually had a plan that could have worked. We'll never know.

If you believe that a change 30 years ago would have wiped out all those stories, then you have to believe the same about a story from 20 years ago. Despite what JMS or anyone at Marvel says, any changes like doing away with the marriage will have ripples. I don't believe JMS could have fully plotted out the changes and kept them to a minimum, especially considering his track record with old continuity (Sins Past), but at least he tried. That's more than I can say for the effort behind the OMD/BND retcon.

Would JMS' version have been better? We can only speculate. All I can say is that I would have preferred to see his stab at the new reality than watch Marvel stick their heads in the sand and pretend everything is the same. If Marvel had tried to explain what was different rather than been willfully ignorant, I might have given BND a shot. If they want me to pay for their product, I at least expect them to put some thought into their stories and work out the kinks.

You know what JMS' version of the OMD ending was, right? It would have gone back all the way to ASM #98 and changed it so that Peter puts Harry into rehab. That completely changes the following 30+ years. Does Harry ever become the Green Goblin? What about his role in the Hobgoblin saga? With Harry put into rehab long before Gwen's death, does Norman ever snap in #121? Would Gwen still be alive? Does that mean she and Peter would still be together now? How does that affect the stories with Black Cat and Venom? Kraven's Last Hunt? Does Pete end up proposing to Gwen?

See, now that would have been a Crisis-level retcon and would have required completely rewriting every issue of every Spider-Man book since ASM #98. Essentially, the slate would have been wiped clean and BND really would take us back to the 1970s.

I know JMS said that he had it mapped out to prevent any continuity problems from arising, but since this is the same guy who thought that Peter had left the black costume webbed under a building ledge for the last few years, I'm a little skeptical about how well mapped out JMS' version was.

 

[moraldeficiency]

There's a significant difference when you consider the ramifications of JMS' ending.



You know what JMS' version of the OMD ending was, right? It would have gone back all the way to ASM #98 and changed it so that Peter puts Harry into rehab. That completely changes the following 30+ years. Does Harry ever become the Green Goblin? What about his role in the Hobgoblin saga? With Harry put into rehab long before Gwen's death, does Norman ever snap in #121? Would Gwen still be alive? Does that mean she and Peter would still be together now? How does that affect the stories with Black Cat and Venom? Kraven's Last Hunt? Does Pete end up proposing to Gwen?

See, now that would have been a Crisis-level retcon and would have required completely rewriting every issue of every Spider-Man book since ASM #98. Essentially, the slate would have been wiped clean and BND really would take us back to the 1970s.

I know JMS said that he had it mapped out to prevent any continuity problems from arising, but since this is the same guy who thought that Peter had left the black costume webbed under a building ledge for the last few years, I'm a little skeptical about how well mapped out JMS' version was.

I don't understand the difference between what we currently have and these problems you speak of in this. Maybe they would have gone back further and changed more, maybe not, none of us can know so we're all randomly guessing. But I would trust JMS more than Joey Q for a story. I would say though that it's easier to believe a change in history than to have people going around with swiss cheese for memory like we currently have now.

The black costume was odd but consider this as an easy explination: Peter Parker has made different formulas for his webbing in the past some of which doesn't desolve so if he was intending on hiding something there for a long term use he would have used one of those formulas.

 

[Brand]

Blader, I've already said that I'm skeptical that JMS could have kept everything perfectly intact--you just can't make a significant change to history and have everything turn out the same. Despite that, at least JMS tried to explain his ending.

Despite that, you refuse to believe that the retcon we did get resulted in any changes to Spider-Man's history (besides Baby May). Watch what just a few changes can do . . .

You know what JQ's version of the OMD ending was, right? It would have gone back all the way to the wedding issue and changed it so that Peter never married MJ.That completely changes the following 20+ years. What about the honeymoon stories? How does this affect Felicia (a HUGE problem now)? With Harry (supposedly) being alive all this time, what about Norman and the Clone Saga? Kraven's Last Hunt? How can all the memory alterations possibly fit together when people like Felicia and May can't possibly remember the same thing from shared experiences?

Regardless of what Marvel says, a big change from 20 years ago will cause problems just like a change from 37 years ago. The difference in this case is that JMS TRIED to work things out instead of ignoring those changes. It might have been good, it probably wasn't, but we'll never know.

Maybe it's just a question of taste. I don't expect to be forced to do any deep thinking when I read comics, but I want the stories to at least make some sense. The biggest turn-off of OMD/BND, for me, is that Marvel has mucked with continuity and made these grand changes to the character without working things out first. They were so eager to make Spider-Man single, they didn't care about the foundation on which their new house was built. Maybe we'll get some grand story down the line that ties up everything in a neat little bow, but I highly doubt it. Everything from Marvel has basically been telling readers to look ahead and not back; they seem to be more concerned about telling their single-Spidey stories, not explaining their mistakes.

 

[Blader5489]

Blader, I've already said that I'm skeptical that JMS could have kept everything perfectly intact--you just can't make a significant change to history and have everything turn out the same. Despite that, at least JMS tried to explain his ending.

Despite that, you refuse to believe that the retcon we did get resulted in any changes to Spider-Man's history (besides Baby May). Watch what just a few changes can do . . .

The reason I "refuse to believe" that the current retcon is as devastating as JMS' version is because the changes were isolated. Take Harry's death, for example. That was changed from "Harry dies at the end of SSM #200" to "Harry survives the end of SSM #200." Now this would have been a problem if it meant that technically Harry has been around for the last 15 or so years and Pete just wasn't hanging out with him or something. But, what's key is that Harry was in rehab--so whether he was dead or on another continent, the fact remains that Harry has still been out of the picture since SSM #200 so there's no "ripple effects."

Contrast that to JMS' ending, where Harry goes into rehab as early as ASM #99. Now that causes significant continuity problems because it rewrites years of stories that Harry had been a part of.

Does that make sense?

Regardless of what Marvel says, a big change from 20 years ago will cause problems just like a change from 37 years ago.

Though I'm sure you would agree that the former causes far less problems than the latter, right?

 

[Brand]

The reason I "refuse to believe" that the current retcon is as devastating as JMS' version is because the changes were isolated. Take Harry's death, for example. That was changed from "Harry dies at the end of SSM #200" to "Harry survives the end of SSM #200." Now this would have been a problem if it meant that technically Harry has been around for the last 15 or so years and Pete just wasn't hanging out with him or something. But, what's key is that Harry was in rehab--so whether he was dead or on another continent, the fact remains that Harry has still been out of the picture since SSM #200 so there's no "ripple effects."

Contrast that to JMS' ending, where Harry goes into rehab as early as ASM #99. Now that causes significant continuity problems because it rewrites years of stories that Harry had been a part of.

Does that make sense?

First, I'm not so sure Harry didn't still die and the current Harry isn't Mephisto, but since everyone thinks Harry has been alive all this time it doesn't matter. Let's say Harry didn't die. What does that do to Norman Osborn? He came back after Peter to get revenge for Harry's death. That has to change. What if Harry really did die? Is there still a grave out there somewhere?

Also, keep in mind that Harry's possible death isn't the only change that was made--Peter and MJ never got married. What about the storylines involving Felicia? She certainly would have acted differently and probably never given up without a serious fight when she found out Peter didn't get married. The Foreigner arc certainly wouldn't have gone down as it did in the comics if Peter had only been "dating" MJ. And let's not forget the altered memories; they can cause quite a headache all on their own.

There are plenty of things that logically don't fit the way they did in the past, so to say that everything is the same as before is just wrong.

Though I'm sure you would agree that the former causes far less problems than the latter, right?

Of course. I never said it didn't. The farther one goes back, the more changes will be made to the timeline. I have one issue (I'm pretty sure it's a "What If?") where Flash is the one who gets bitten by that spider instead of Peter. Now THAT would cause some changes.

 

[Blader5489]

First, I'm not so sure Harry didn't still die and the current Harry isn't Mephisto, but since everyone thinks Harry has been alive all this time it doesn't matter. Let's say Harry didn't die. What does that do to Norman Osborn? He came back after Peter to get revenge for Harry's death. That has to change. What if Harry really did die? Is there still a grave out there somewhere?

Norman didn't return to avenge Harry's death, he considered his son's failure to be a humiliation and embarrassment to the Osborn name. The primary reason Norman returned was because his grand plan to destroy Peter had failed, and so he decided to take the more hands-on, direct approach.

Also, keep in mind that Harry's possible death isn't the only change that was made--Peter and MJ never got married. What about the storylines involving Felicia? She certainly would have acted differently and probably never given up without a serious fight when she found out Peter didn't get married. The Foreigner arc certainly wouldn't have gone down as it did in the comics if Peter had only been "dating" MJ. And let's not forget the altered memories; they can cause quite a headache all on their own.

What about Felicia? Her relationship with Spidey ended before MJ returned, didn't it? I don't see how that changes anything. And what about the Foreigner arc would have gone differently? I'm not familiar with the story (other than Ned Leeds' death).

 

[Brand]

Norman didn't return to avenge Harry's death, he considered his son's failure to be a humiliation and embarrassment to the Osborn name. The primary reason Norman returned was because his grand plan to destroy Peter had failed, and so he decided to take the more hands-on, direct approach.

What about Felicia? Her relationship with Spidey ended before MJ returned, didn't it? I don't see how that changes anything. And what about the Foreigner arc would have gone differently? I'm not familiar with the story (other than Ned Leeds' death).

I'll have to get back to you with regards to Norman, as that period is around the time when I left comics. However, it doesn't change the fact that there's still some unanswered questions. Also, the simple fact that his son was still alive should have changed things for Norman.

As for Felicia, let me apologize for one thing first. Looking back over it, the Foreigner arc actually came a bit before the marriage, when Felicia returned and messed with Peter's head (who was sort of dating MJ at the time). I mixed that up with Felicia's return after the wedding. Here's her response to finding out about the marriage (from Venom, of all people):

She naturally went on to try and break up Peter and MJ, but eventually came to accept their relationship.

Now, here's the thing (one of many). Even when they sort of became "friends," there was a degree of enmity between Felicia and MJ. That was when MJ and Peter were MARRIED. If Peter and MJ had just been dating, I doubt Felicia would have so willingly given up the chase seeing as Peter is supposedly the one who gave her the ability to trust men again (The Evil that Men Do) and is really the only one who's ever consistently been there for her. She's still "smitten as a kitten" (Marvel Knights: Spider-Man). The marriage is what finally got her to back down and let Peter and MJ be, and without it things would have HAD to go differently.

That doesn't even touch on the problems that she must have now with her altered memories.