What Raimi's Trilogy did better than the comics...

[blind_fury]

blind_fury you have hated every one of these movies for years. Why do you troll still?

I thought these forums were for fans of the characters not just people who think Raimi is perfect?

And does anyone worship Sam Raimi? I have noticed more of a hateful backlash in the whiney fanboy world over not enough Venom and dancing (nevermind the actual flaws of the movie like an uneven pace, a poorly structured narrative and one too many plot devices).

Yes fanboys can be whiney but at least they're not spineless cowards who always takes sides with the studio because it's popular to do so.

I personally think the first one was flawed but good and the third is even more flawed than SM1. I love the trilogy as a whole, but think it could have been better, mistakes were made and Avi Arad kept holding potential back (he was the one who cut Gwen out of the first movie to die and then had her and Eddie/Venom shoved into SM3). I also think SM2 is the highest mark a superhero movie has reached. With that said, it can be bettered and it can be topped.

haha! Typical Raimi apologist. Blames all the mistakes made in the franchise on a producer instead of they guys who wrote/directed the movies.

This isn't Raimi worshipping. This is actually looking at the franchise differently and examining some of the changes. But when you dod that one has to expect one or more trolls like yourself.

I'm a troll. You call the Raimi critics "whiney fanboys",maybe you're the troll.

Anyway, another change, I meant to say, and to me is the biggest improvement Raimi made was....

AUNT MAY.

He took a character who was basically the grandma from the Loony Tunes and until JMS (who has since lost all credibility) was always written as a one note boring cliche. Her death in #400 was great (again retconned though), but as a whole she has always been a boring character.

Raimi took the basic idea of a kind old lady who is Peter's moral conscience and will tell him the right thing when he needs to hear it, but made her a strong character. She may have hated Spidey at first but she grew reasonable after he saved her life. Spidey saved her life a few dozen time s in the comics and she still hated him. She is played by the incredibly wonderful Rosemary Harris who makes htis a strong woman who doesn't have a heart attack at seeing a messy room and can move out of her house with some dignity and strength. She can be angry at Peter and judge him. But in the end she is a character of dignity.

Not of weakness.

Actually I'll take a flawed Aunt May over an idealized Aunt May any day of the week. It makes her more real to the audience and Parker more relatable.

 

[DACrowe]

Some of those I agree with (Gwen Stacy having a small role, albeit considering she was introduced after Gobby was dead I thought she was well used in limitation in SM3), killing off Doc Ock was a mistake in many ways (though it did provide a great ending for the movie) and of course organic webbing always comes to rear its ugly head when fanboys are *****ing (albeit it is a fair complaint, one that was beaten to death since Seabsicuit died).

But some of those are comsmetic. Tobey Maguire played early Peter Parker from the Lee/Ditko eras in the first two movies pretty damn well. In fact I'd argue the first one nailed early Parker. In the third movie I actually see him growing into the Lee/Romita Parker as he gets cockier and less introverted than he was in the first two. But hey since he isn't that cool kid from college that he was after Lee left, he "isn't hte same personality." Every writer write sParker consistantly to their vision and every writer has small variations on their vision. Raimi and Maguire have been consistant to their's it is quite faithful to the golden era of Spidey and his progression.

The spider sense? Just because you don't hear it every five second doesn't mean it is getting ignored. The only time it seems to be really missing is when he gets ***** slapped with a chair in the first movie during the wrestling match.

Quips? There are quite a few quips in the first movie (albeit Maguire wasn't very good at them at that time) and in the second movie there weren't enough but they were there and there were some well delivered ones in the third. Sure they didn't go off every 2 seconds in the heat of battle but usually he was fighting when someone's life was in danger (notice how the quips in the bank fight stopped when Aunt May's life was in danger in SM2). And while it works in the comics on screen it would make him look lame and his villains unthreatening. It would be a B&R scenerio. So cutting back on jokes is a cosmetic change.

As is Peter PParker dancing. He does some pretty curel **** in between the dancing as "Dark Peter" people ignore (trying to murder Sandman, blowing his best friend's face off, ruining Eddie Brock and playing dirty against him, embarassing MJ and using Gwen Stacy and of course hitting Mary Jane, HARD.

So as i've always said the dancing is a minor cosmetic change and gripe fanboys have. I see plenty of problems with SM3, but that isn't one of them.

Now please stay on topic. blind_fury if you want to troll and be a *****e there are plenty of threads on the subject matter. There's even a "I Hate Spider-Man 3" thread and a "Does Raimi feel stupid, now?" thread. Go play there.

 

[TheVileOne]

I totally see what Spider-bite is saying.

Being faithful to the source material is OVERRATED at times.

There's no way Spider-man movies can be 100% word for word faithful to the the story when there are thousands of issues and stories of Spider-man. The same characters written differently MANY TIMES over by hundreds of different writers and artists. The characters constantly changing over the years. This is not the same as a Sin City or 300 type of series, it's totally different.

Also what Spider-bite is saying, that a movie can't just be faithful to the source material it has to be a STRONG MOVIE at the same time.

I think Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, etc. they were pretty faithful to source material on the surface, but they weren't very good as stand alone movies.

 

[TheVileOne]

Doctor Octopus has "DIED" in the comics as well. They simply re-wrote it where they said, "Oops he didn't actually die, your mistake."

This is something purists won't acknowledge so they can wallow in their misery over the movies' interpretations.

 

[blind_fury]

Now please stay on topic. blind_fury if you want to troll and be a *****e there are plenty of threads on the subject matter. There's even a "I Hate Spider-Man 3" thread and a "Does Raimi feel stupid, now?" thread. Go play there.

I am on topic.

I'm debating what is and isn't an improvement. If you make thread suggesting Burton, Nolan, Raimi, or Singer made improvements to the source material be prepared for a spirited debate.

And trying to kick off people from a thread who disagree with you is the very definition of "being a *****e".

 

[DACrowe]

P.S. Sure call me a Raimi apoloogist and supporter. I just take whatever the studios hand me and love it. That is why I use thoughtfu lcriticism and actually disect these as movies and not just as comic books when I rate them. My 7.0 for SM3 is so cowardly because I don't rave how perfect and awesome it is nor do i proclaim it to be **** because it didn't reach expectations. How damn sensible of me. How dare I?

Don't talk about the subject just call me a raimi apologist. That's right. I always side with the studio. This is why I hated Fantastic Four, X3, Ghost Rider, Blade III, The Punisher, Elektra, 300 (though that was flawed from a mediocre graphic novel that purists will never admit wasn't that good to begin with)....I just eat crap. No i use logic. Hard to fathom.

Now please leave this thread you are turning it into a flame war and I do want to discuss. This is my last posst in response to you, now.

 

[TheVileOne]

blind_fury. You've said what you had to say.

I don't want this thread to get off-topic either. So I'm going to ask you nicely to stop the pointless arguing.

None of us are going to reach any kind of agreement or accord over this, so let's just nip it in the bud and stop it now.

It's clear that nothing in the movies is an improvement at all for you. That is abundantly clear. But I'd personally like to know from other posters if they found any other improvements from the comics as well. And so does DACrowe. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[BrklynsVeryOwn]

Cosmetic changes?

Taking away Spider-man's greatest scientific achievement (synthetic web formula) which ingrains Peter Parker's nerdy intelligence into his identity as Spider-man and replacing them with a organic body fluid is cosmetic?

Changing Parker/Spider-man's personality is cosmetic?

Changing Dr. Ock into a nice guy is cosmetic?

Reducing Gwen Stacy's significance to a contrived cameo is cosmetic?

Ignoring the Spidey sense for most of the trilogy is a cosmetic change?

Changing how Peter Parker is affected by the symbiote into clownish behavior is cosmetic?

Permanently killing off villain after villain is cosmetic?

Instead of Spider-man disarming villains with mockery Peter Parker becomes a mockery of himself? This is cosmetic?

Oh and so-called cosmetic changes also change the characters and relationships themselves. Replace Indiana Jones' hat with a backwards baseball cap and it changes/distorts/ruins the character.

First and foremost the idea of organic webbing came from Stan Lee himself. He originally wanted Parker to sprout webbing from an Arachnid like orifice, but he figured (with a lack of creativity) that it would be way too "far out there" to write for a bunch of kids that would be reading his books, as well he felt that he may have had to have peter literally spin webbing from his...ahem..backside.

The idea of webshooters didn't come until a discussion came out with Mr Ditko. They discussed a Web Gun. Grappling Hook, even a "web bazooka" and settled upon the bracelets later on.


Second of all. Parker's personality is spot on with the days of yester-year. I'm sorry he's not the Parker of the 70's or even the 90's but Sam Raimi is truly allowing Tobey to display the Personality of Parker as it was from the true source material.


Third. Ock was a dick but he was never a "nice guy" -true-.

But Ock did save Parker's life. Twice.

He did many things that you may consider out of character. He's a selfish bastard we all know this, but the change for the movie made he more relatable...which is what Raimi was going for with his villains. He didn't want a face with a motive and a hard on for crime. It's just...empty.

Fourth....Goto the first page. Read the new news blurb the Hype has up.
heh. Fourth. Irony, rocks.


Fifth...So you're telling me every single time his Spider-Sense goes off the movie should slow down and that annoying (yet actually pretty damn cool) ringing sound should occur? Just because that mode didn't come on every time an attack was dodged or was not avoided doesn't mean it didn't go off. It was assumed his spider-sense was going off each and every time he made a move.

Sixth....The cartoon did it. Raimi did it. *shrugs* what ya gonna do.


Seventh.....comic book characters never stay dead. Ever.

Your other points are understood. But a bit snooty. o_o

 

[Skyrissian]

They basically switched the characters of MJ and Gwen for the movies, which was pretty lame I thought. I can understand merging MJ and Gwen's character together for the first movie to streamline things and make the story a little simpler, but why introduce Gwen at all in the 3rd movie? It didn't make sense to me. If that was the plan, they should have had Gwen from the start and introduced MJ in 3.

As for improvement, I'll say again, the biggest for me was Aunt May and Uncle Ben. Reading the comics, I understood their importance, but I never much cared for them. The movies really build up their characters and make you care about them.

 

[plant_man]

Made Harry Osborn good looking

 

[Mara Jane]

I agree, too, DACrowe.

The comics are pretty cheesy and lame at points, and if they were put on screen exactly as they were written, they'd also come across that way. I think it's hilarious when people complain about the symbiote landing on Earth right next to Pete & MJ in the park. Some people I've talked to IRL complain that "John Jameson should have brought it like in the comics." HA! If only they knew... Having the suit land as a meteor is a heckuva lot better than the Secret Wars.

Also, with Harry's death: I liked the death by poisoning better in the comic, too, but it's harder to sympathize for Harry in the comic. Sure he saved Pete... from a trap that HE SET UP! His death in the movie is much more noble and a true sacrifice for a friend. Personally, I wish Raimi had included MJ's appeal to Harry to save Pete, as well as Harry's apology to MJ, but oh well.

 

[TheVileOne]

They introduced Gwen in the third movie because they wanted to please ungrateful comic book purists and make them happy.

The fans that were always *****ing and moaning about Gwen not being in them. The fans proclaiming such and such actress was actually Gwen which all turned out to be bull****.

 

[blind_fury]

They introduced Gwen in the third movie because they wanted to please ungrateful comic book purists and make them happy.

Yeah, shame on the fans for wanting Gwen Stacy in the movies.

How about shame on the studio? Shame on them for not properly introducing the character and failing to do justice to the Death of Gwen Stacy story arc which would have added a great deal of depth and gravity to the trilogy as a whole?

 

[plant_man]

'ere we go again!!!

 

[blind_fury]

I agree, too, DACrowe.

The comics are pretty cheesy and lame at points, and if they were put on screen exactly as they were written, they'd also come across that way. I think it's hilarious when people complain about the symbiote landing on Earth right next to Pete & MJ in the park. Some people I've talked to IRL complain that "John Jameson should have brought it like in the comics." HA! If only they knew... Having the suit land as a meteor is a heckuva lot better than the Secret Wars.

I don't think anyone wanted the secret wars origin exactly.

But a meteor landing right next to Peter Parker is a bit contrived and lazy.

 

[Mara Jane]

I don't think anyone wanted the secret wars origin exactly.

But a meteor landing right next to Peter Parker is a bit contrived and lazy.

And nothing in the comics is ever contrived or lazy?

 

[Spider-Bite]

I really don't think Dock Ock was shown to have died in the movie. He wa sunderwater which would provide a lot of protection from the blast. He wasn't horribly scarrer or anything, and anybody with one lung can hold their breathe longer than what was shown in the movie.

Ock could have died, but we really have no reason to assume he's dead. Ock was different from the comic book but I think it worked, and it provided motivation. In reality what is going to be his motivation? Robbing a bank or joining the criminal underworld is a little pointless. All the money in the world still isn't going to get a landlord to rent to you. What's he gonna do with his time?

Having him want to complete his experiment gave him a reason for doing the things he did.

 

[blind_fury]

And nothing in the comics is ever contrived or lazy?

The question is did Raimi improve Venom's origin.

The answer is no.

 

[BrklynsVeryOwn]

Yeah, shame on the fans for wanting Gwen Stacy in the movies.

How about shame on the studio? Shame on them for not properly introducing the character and failing to do justice to the Death of Gwen Stacy story arc which would have added a great deal of depth and gravity to the trilogy as a whole?

MJ Knew Peter before Gwen even knew that Parker existed.

 

[Spider-Bite]

The question is did Raimi improve Venom's origin.

The answer is no.

no he didn't. I think he went with aht was necessary for the surrounding story, but he didn't improve it, and it had a lot of room for improvement.

Venom shouldnt' have even been in the movie anyways.

But he did improve his physical appearance. He made changes and the changes were clearly justified.

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't think anyone claimed that he improved Venom's origin either.

I mean what about the change in how Peter confessed to Aunt May in the movies compared to the comics?

 

[Spider-Bite]

I don't think anyone wanted the secret wars origin exactly.

But a meteor landing right next to Peter Parker is a bit contrived and lazy.

that makes me cringe. That is just so incredibly awful. Not to mention the fact that Peter picks the same church as Brock, and on top of that after Venom becomes Venom what are the odds that while webslinging he's just going to run smack dab into Sandman by coincedence. There are millions of people in New York, and he picks the same alley as Sandman.

Really awful. Not much thought was put into how to make things happen in this movie.

I really don't know how Raimi did such a 180 on this movie. The first two were very good movies. They were very good. It was clear that spidey 1 and 2 and Batman Begins were in a league of their own when it comes to comic book movies, and than spider-man 3 just took such a turn for the worse.

 

[BrklynsVeryOwn]

I don't think anyone claimed that he improved Venom's origin either.

I mean what about the change in how Peter confessed to Aunt May in the movies compared to the comics?

Took that from Ultimate.

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't read the ultimate comics anymore. Did Peter confess to Aunt May about what he did before she found out he was Spider-man in Ultimate?

 

[Spider-Bite]

If were going to cricize Raimi for making changes, whether they are good or bad, than we should still give him credit for the stories he borrowed, and dont' dismiss it as "he got that from the comic book."

He still deserves credit for incorporating it and choosing the right things to incorporate from the comic book. It's not like it's extremely easy to do. Raimi worked his butt off, and despite part 3's let down, spider-man is still the best comic book movie franchise out there. Batman might steal it, but well see.

And no I'm not just giving Raimi unconditional support either. I don't know what the hell he was thinking for a lot of the choices he made for part 3. It's just like "what the hell?" I really think he blew it with part 3.