Homecoming What to do with Spider-Man... AGAIN?!?!?!

[Spider-Gnome]

Do you work in the film industry?

I use to. Does that count?

The argument isn't about keeping out characters such as MJ and Gwen. The argument is about telling a new story and perhaps using the characters in different ways then before instead of following the same story beats of the last two films.

I don't want them following story beats from the previous films. I want them to follow story beats from the comics. Properly.

Speaking of which, these are the items I'd like to see in the new MCU Spider-Man films.

First film you can have Pete maybe have a crush on Liz and/or Betty, but because of Spider-Man and the ole Parker Luck, they never connect.

Have Gwen become his first real relationship. Either have her as his academic rival in college or follow the Spectacular Spider-Man version.

Have Aunt May and Anna Watson plotting to have Pete meet Anna's niece, but Pete always manages to avoid ("Personality" shudder).

The "Face it, tiger. You just hit the jackpot!" scene.

Capt. Stacy's death as collateral damage between Spider-Man and Doc Ock.

The Night Gwen Stacy Died.

Scene afterwards from comics where Pete calls out party girl MJ, but MJ stays.

Bonus points if they can recreate the scene in my avatar!

MJ eventually becoming Pete's confidant and girlfriend. If the series (and MCU) lasts long enough, would be nice if they eventually marry.


Anyway, just my hopes for the relationship part of the series.

 

[sl500jazz]

I use to. Does that count?

Nope...

because that comment wasn't directed at you. Lol

The argument isn't about keeping out characters such as MJ and Gwen. The argument is about telling a new story and perhaps using the characters in different ways then before instead of following the same story beats of the last two films. Marvel and Sony are clearly singling a fresh start and fans have got to wrap their heads around the idea that its not just gonna be an updated retread of what we saw before. Now that doesn't mean we won't see MJ , Gwen, Harry, Norman etc, but its clear that Feige wants to do several things different from what Raimi and Webb did.

Well, we agree there.

We just disagree on the specifics...

 

[Frodo]

I don't want them following story beats from the previous films. I want them to follow story beats from the comics. Properly.

Speaking of which, these are the items I'd like to see in the new MCU Spider-Man films.

First film you can have Pete maybe have a crush on Liz and/or Betty, but because of Spider-Man and the ole Parker Luck, they never connect.

Have Gwen become his first real relationship. Either have her as his academic rival in college or follow the Spectacular Spider-Man version.

Have Aunt May and Anna Watson plotting to have Pete meet Anna's niece, but Pete always manages to avoid ("Personality" shudder).

The "Face it, tiger. You just hit the jackpot!" scene.

Capt. Stacy's death as collateral damage between Spider-Man and Doc Ock.

The Night Gwen Stacy Died.

Scene afterwards from comics where Pete calls out party girl MJ, but MJ stays.

Bonus points if they can recreate the scene in my avatar!

MJ eventually becoming Pete's confidant and girlfriend. If the series (and MCU) lasts long enough, would be nice if they eventually marry.


Anyway, just my hopes for the relationship part of the series.

Well that's different from the other films and I could see them developing along those lines or something similar because at least Marvel would be trying to bring something new to it. I think adapting the comics properly while it may not always be practical logistically, would at least be closer to what I think Feige is going for, as opposed to just trying to jump back into Peter falling for Gwen and MJ, and basically repeating the same beats from both films in the first film.

I think alot of fans think "reboot" means "remake", and since the previous series of films are the only live action example of Peter's relationships , they think the next films have to do it the same way or a very similar way. The difference with a reboot is that you can start from scratch and approach the story from a new direction or explore aspects of the story in a way that hasn't been done. That's why the Bond, Batman, and to an extent Star Trek reboots were successful. They had essential themes, characters, and elements from their mythologies but they were essentially trying something that the previous films had lacked or lost.

A remake is basically doing the same thing, hitting the same beats, hitting the same storylines, but just updated for today. Those fail because they can't improve on what was done and they don't offer anything new.

 

[sl500jazz]

Just to clarify, what I suggested did not repeat the same beats of previous films. It eschewed them.

I get that fans want 1000% comic book (or Spectacular Spider-Man) accuracy, but I'll reiterate that while that kind of thing might look good on paper, it would be difficult to actually implement.

 

[Random490]

The number one thing I think they need to do is not have MJ/Gwen/any love interest get kidnapped or better yet no one gets kidnapped. Also I'd like them to take a completely different route with the love interest angle. The previous films all had the one girl meant to be love his life from the beginning so maybe for the next one don't have it so obvious. Perhaps introduce a couple of potential love interests in his life and not have him hook up with or be obsessed with any of them in the first film. This could add a lot more freedom to try something different than the same love story we've seen before.

 

[sl500jazz]

By the way, just thought I'd add that some of the arguments on here remind me of the justifications for OMD...and it's kind of aggravating.

Having MJ tied to Peter from the beginning (even if it's only in a platonic relationship) "limits the creators" and is "boring" because we can't have other girls (even though we could)...

...but following the comics beat by beat and remaking previously adapted storylines isn't.

 

[Random490]

By the way, just thought I'd add that some of the arguments on here remind me of the justifications for OMD...and it's kind of aggravating.

Having MJ tied to Peter from the beginning (even if it's only in a platonic relationship) "limits the creators" and is "boring" because we can't have other girls (even though we could)...

...but following the comics beat by beat and remaking previously adapted storylines isn't.

I completely agree, as long as it's not obvious from the begining, I just think that's been done before with this character. So I would like to just see something different and explore different possibilities this time around. In fact he doesn't have to have a love interest at all. Just don't tell the same subplot.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

By the way, just thought I'd add that some of the arguments on here remind me of the justifications for OMD...and it's kind of aggravating.

It actually reminds me more of the people who think it'll be the same old story unless they use a spider-person other than Peter Parker.

 

[spider-neil]

Above all, I want something that feels new and fresh. All 5 Spider-Man movies feel like the same movie. I want something that feels 'different' like if Spider-Man teamed up with Daredevil to take down the mob or if Spider-Man had to help out a friend on the other side of the world. Just something new and fresh.

 

[sl500jazz]

It actually reminds me more of the people who think it'll be the same old story unless they use a spider-person other than Peter Parker.

That too

 

[Harry Dresden]

I'd say if they decide to use Gwen and MJ that they hold off on the romance.

 

[Webhead2006]

For me I really hope marvel uses everyone and thst everyone gets good development. Be it harry mj gwen liz etc.... I really like to see liz and her romance with harry. I like to see mj and gwen be friends and vying for peter and all that.

 

[ernesth100]

Keep his mask on as much as possible.

 

[Webhead2006]

Second that. I don't want this peter to be all willy nilly and mask coming off all the time. Keep it on. And only ones who should know he is spidey is a few avengers and either mj or gwen in time. Same with norman and harry later on and venom. No one else should know or see him with out mask.

Also spider gnome I really like your points you brought up at top of the page. I really like to see things handled that way.

 

[spider-neil]

Garfield did a great job emoting with his mask on. He actually proved to me that it could be down because outside of 'V' in V for Vendetta and Vader I don't think I've seen people give good performances with their face completely covered.

 

[Webhead2006]

We just need a mask that can emote better lol.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Talking about the romance, I say have Peter pining after Gwen the whole movie. He continually "third-wheels" with Harry and Liz and nearly gives up and moves on before Gwen goes and asks him to take her out in the last scene of the movie.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Also spider gnome I really like your points you brought up at top of the page. I really like to see things handled that way.

Thanks. You and I think a lot alike.

And when in doubt, best to fall on this: "Do it like Spectacular Spider-Man."

 

[Webhead2006]

I would say that too.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Because having Mary Jane as "the friend " takes the emphasis off of romance as they have suggested wanting, but still allows them to explore Peter and MJ's relationship. If they introduce MJ or any other love interest, for that matter, the way you've suggested, she'd have to remain in the background perpetually or go through some type of courtship with Peter(meeting, falling for each other, the girl being disappointed by Peter's constant absences, strain on relationship, the girl potentially discovering Peter's identity, strain on relationship...wash, rinse, repeat), which again is something that's already been explored in previous films. You'd just be changing up the women/minor plot details. And I don't want Peter Parker turned into James Bond with his harem. It's already done enough in the comics.

And Mary Jane is, without a doubt, the most significant and developed Spider-Man love interest. Sorry, if you don't like it, but it's not about setting her up as "the one" (even though she pretty much is), it's about exploring MJ and her dynamic with Peter (that of being the best friend and confidant which she has been in the 616 universe more than anyone else) and not relegating a complex female character to being Peter's endgame by having her show up at the last moment just to say the jackpot line.



Don't see how falling for your friend is an obligation or inorganic storytelling. It's something that happens quite often in real life. The people that surround us tend to be the people that we end up with. Shoehorning MJ in at the last moment and expecting something significant to come out of that in the grand scheme of the franchise (or the GA to give a damn)would be inorganic

You want MJ to be a complex female character and yet you want her character to be mostly defined by her relationship and dynamic with Peter right from the beginning?

How does it make her a complex and independent female character when she is immediately tied to some sort of relationship to Peter... instead of being allowed to grow and mature on her own as a character first and then naturally develop a relationship with Peter over time (like it happened in the comics)?

Peter being allowed to have another main love interest in high school that isn't MJ or Gwen does not make him a James Bond. It is handling Peter's journey and growth from teenager to young man over the course of several films (not just a trilogy followed by a hard reboot) in a way that is more like real life (and the comics!). I would be very interested in that path being taken, which I suppose potentially conflicts with your Peter/MJ shipper agenda.

Newsflash: Not everyone marries their high school sweetheart... or the girl they had a crush on in high school... or even a girl they knew in high school at all (imagine that).

 

[harryoscop]

Why can't MJ be a friend to Peter? she doesn't have to be in love with him

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Why can't MJ be a friend to Peter? she doesn't have to be in love with him

I just don't want an Ultimate style MJ or a Sam Raimi style MJ.

 

[C Prometheus]

You want MJ to be a complex female character and yet you want her character to be mostly defined by her relationship and dynamic with Peter right from the beginning?

How does it make her a complex and independent female character when she is immediately tied to some sort of relationship to Peter... instead of being allowed to grow and mature on her own as a character first and then naturally develop a relationship with Peter over time (like it happened in the comics)?

You're assuming that by highlighting her relationship with Peter, MJ will just be portrayed as a extension to Peter or a pretty looking plot device. While it's a fair concern, I don't think you're giving enough credit to potential screenwriters.

It's totally possible to showcase their relationship, be it as friends or as a romance, while maintaining MJ's complexity and sense of independency. You just have to remember that Mary Jane has more to offer than just being Peter's kissing machine and personal damsel in distress. She can argue with Peter and call him out on his ******** when he's wrong about something. She can be an active part in the film and search for answers herself.

I know most people hate the USM cartoon show, and for totally understandable reasons, but I saw this episode last night called "Exclusive." MJ is the main protagonist, filming an ongoing interview with Spider-Man that quickly turns south when a disaster hits the city. She quickly investigates the scene on-hand and braves the dangers, because she wants to see what Spider-Man will do. She wants the best exclusive that she can get, while also recognizing that it can be a huge help to proving that Spidey isn't a public menace.

There's plenty of potential in focusing on MJ's relationship with Peter/Spidey, while also allowing her to shine as an individual character.

Peter being allowed to have another main love interest in high school that isn't MJ or Gwen does not make him a James Bond. It is handling Peter's journey and growth from teenager to young man over the course of several films (not just a trilogy followed by a hard reboot) in a way that is more like real life (and the comics!). I would be very interested in that path being taken, which I suppose potentially conflicts with your Peter/MJ shipper agenda.

Newsflash: Not everyone marries their high school sweetheart... or the girl they had a crush on in high school... or even a girl they knew in high school at all (imagine that).

The reason I keep going back to the idea of it being a trilogy is because I honestly don't know how long the MCU will be able to last. We're heading for an interesting period in a few years that will ultimately be the real big test to just how successful the MCU can be longterm and whether or not there is any real serious threat from "superhero fatigue."

Honestly? I don't know how long we're going to have Peter in the MCU. Not just because of the possibility that Sony might screw it up, but because there's always the chance that they might want to introduce someone new like Miles Morales in a future film.

And yeah, I think most people recognize that high school romances don't normally work out. Neither do most college romances for that matter. However there's a reason you often see those types of tropes in films; they work in regards to storytelling. You get invested in a group of characters and see them grow from film-to-film and see where they ultimately end up.

You're almost definitely never going to see an adaptation of the long list of Peter's romances over the years in the MCU, because it'd take too long to do them all justice in the cinematic format. It'd be a big stretch to give justice to both Gwen and then MJ over the course of three movies (though it could work with four or five films).

So yeah, just narrowing it down to focus on MJ works really well in a cinematic adaptation, because it offers a more focused and straight-forward narrative and character arc for both Peter and Mary Jane.

You want to see a more "accurate" portrayal of Spider-Man's ongoing romances, both in regards to the comics and in being 'realistic?' Go watch Spectacular Spider-Man or wait for a new show, because it's very unlikely to ever happen in a film series.

 

[sl500jazz]

You're assuming that by highlighting her relationship with Peter, MJ will just be portrayed as a extension to Peter or a pretty looking plot device. While it's a fair concern, I don't think you're giving enough credit to potential screenwriters.

It's totally possible to showcase their relationship, be it as friends or as a romance, while maintaining MJ's complexity and sense of independency. You just have to remember that Mary Jane has more to offer than just being Peter's kissing machine and personal damsel in distress. She can argue with Peter and call him out on his ******** when he's wrong about something. She can be an active part in the film and search for answers herself.

I know most people hate the USM cartoon show, and for totally understandable reasons, but I saw this episode last night called "Exclusive." MJ is the main protagonist, filming an ongoing interview with Spider-Man that quickly turns south when a disaster hits the city. She quickly investigates the scene on-hand and braves the dangers, because she wants to see what Spider-Man will do. She wants the best exclusive that she can get, while also recognizing that it can be a huge help to proving that Spidey isn't a public menace.

There's plenty of potential in focusing on MJ's relationship with Peter/Spidey, while also allowing her to shine as an individual character.



The reason I keep going back to the idea of it being a trilogy is because I honestly don't know how long the MCU will be able to last. We're heading for an interesting period in a few years that will ultimately be the real big test to just how successful the MCU can be longterm and whether or not there is any real serious threat from "superhero fatigue."

Honestly? I don't know how long we're going to have Peter in the MCU. Not just because of the possibility that Sony might screw it up, but because there's always the chance that they might want to introduce someone new like Miles Morales in a future film.

And yeah, I think most people recognize that high school romances don't normally work out. Neither do most college romances for that matter. However there's a reason you often see those types of tropes in films; they work in regards to storytelling. You get invested in a group of characters and see them grow from film-to-film and see where they ultimately end up.

You're almost definitely never going to see an adaptation of the long list of Peter's romances over the years in the MCU, because it'd take too long to do them all justice in the cinematic format. It'd be a big stretch to give justice to both Gwen and then MJ over the course of three movies (though it could work with four or five films).

So yeah, just narrowing it down to focus on MJ works really well in a cinematic adaptation, because it offers a more focused and straight-forward narrative and character arc for both Peter and Mary Jane.

You want to see a more "accurate" portrayal of Spider-Man's ongoing romances, both in regards to the comics and in being 'realistic?' Go watch Spectacular Spider-Man or wait for a new show, because it's very unlikely to ever happen in a film series.

Basically all of this

I'm too tired for all of this back and forth, but I couldn't help myself, and just wanted to add one thing:

You want MJ to be a complex female character and yet you want her character to be mostly defined by her relationship and dynamic with Peter right from the beginning?

How does it make her a complex and independent female character when she is immediately tied to some sort of relationship to Peter... instead of being allowed to grow and mature on her own as a character first and then naturally develop a relationship with Peter over time (like it happened in the comics)?

And she certainly has more to offer than being a bombshell with the jackpot line (but for some reason that's the only interpretation that counts). This is a Spider-Man movie not a Mary Jane Watson movie. MJ is ultimately a supporting character so, yes, her role in the narrative has to be determined by her ties to main character. You're only fooling yourself if you think that they'd be able to examine Peter's relationships with Betty, Liz, Felicia, and, Gwen, and on top of that, explore the trials and tribulations of Mary Jane ala 616 in a few films. Especially when they've clearly stated that romance isn't going to be the focus of this new franchise. Again what I suggested (having her be Peter's good friend/confidant) would allow for exploration into Mary Jane's character and would allow room for growth (even if it wouldn't be exactly like the 616 comics) because it would give her an active and pivotal role in the fabric of the franchise's storyline as opposed to relegating her to being just another one of many love interests or Peter's endgame only to be explored in depth some time after Liz, Betty, Gwen, Felicia, etc. (If they ever even got that far).

 

[Webhead2006]

Ya I rather if gwen and mj are both in hs with pete. For all to just be friends. Maybe some flirtation between them here or there. But hold off on a full blown relationships with either to collage. So we can develop gwen mj etc... as separate complex characters. And not just be defined as gf 1 gf 2 or damsel in distress.