What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Discussion in 'The Comics' started by Comics N' Toons, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. Anubis

    Anubis Sup?

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    Nah, that's just general stupidity.
     
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  2. dkamphaus43

    dkamphaus43 Well-Known Member

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    Waid has done some good stuff, no question about that. But ever since I read his idiotic comments about how he thinks Spider-Man should always be a perennial loser, his belief that that's the character's key appeal, and that having a hot wife or girlfriend makes the character hard to relate to, I have a hard time taking anything he says seriously.
     
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  3. Czar Colossus

    Czar Colossus Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect....that's just ridiculous. Byrne made Superman cool again. He gave people a reason to start reading his books again. I understand that's the reason for this new 52 business, but I can't help feeling some of the changes (to Superman in particular) are just not good one's. Especially in light of Superman: Secret Origin getting retconned less than two years after it came out.:huh:
     
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  4. CConn

    CConn Fountainhead of culture.

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    No, it's definitely a good thing that Secret Origin got retconned. It was woefully mediocre.
     
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  5. Blitzkrieg Bop

    Blitzkrieg Bop Fight Owens Fight

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    Already? Christ. So what's the official origin now?
     
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  6. CConn

    CConn Fountainhead of culture.

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    Whatever Grant Morrison ****ing wants it to be, that's what.
     
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  7. Sloth7d

    Sloth7d Escapist

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    Superman prefers to think of his origins as multiple choice. One day it's a little of one thing, the next day it's a little of something completely different. This was all said in that comic book where he crippled Babara Gordon to prove a point to her dad.
     
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  8. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    I was liking the direction Morrison's new origin for superman was going, until he decided to put 3 twists in a single issue and focus on 2- 3 villains for the origin story arc
     
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  9. Oddzball

    Oddzball Well-Known Member

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    The Stern/Ordway Superman had a dry sense of humor. This helped humanize him.
     
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  10. Czar Colossus

    Czar Colossus Well-Known Member

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    ......and that is the key to a great Superman....he must seem more human. Superman is Clark Kent in disguise, not the other way around (in spite of the way he was originally described, most notably in the '50s TV series). Superman works best when it is acknowledged that Clark is the real person and Superman is a vehicle to use his abilities. BTW Secret Origins may not have been a masterpiece, but it's looking pretty good compared to this new stuff. I know it may still be too early to tell.....thus I remain as open minded and optimistic as I can be.
     
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  11. Anubis

    Anubis Sup?

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    Really? Cuz I like the new stuff. (with the exception of Ma and pa being dead.) I like a brash, young, kinda stupid Supes. Then again I am like an issue behind. :o
     
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  12. CConn

    CConn Fountainhead of culture.

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    Yeah, Morrison's Action is still better.
     
    #37
  13. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    With all that said i think you don't like golden age Superman very much, i mean, Clark Kent was the disguise during that era, the new superman origin with Superman impulsive and behaving like he is right now, all that was based from the golden age superman stories
     
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  14. Czar Colossus

    Czar Colossus Well-Known Member

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    No argument there, you are absolutely right. I do however have a fondness for the nostalgia of the Golden Age, but I prefer the interpretation of Superman as being very in touch with his humanity and the acknowledgement that he is the kind of man that he is because of Jonathan and Martha. He has his abilities because he is Kryptonian, but he does not act like an alien.This Superman does not seem like the leader and role model the previous version was. I think him having Ma and Pa Kent to go to to get away from his responsibilities as Superman made him more appealing than ever, then when he married Lois he could also turn to her.Now that is gone and I don't particularly like that. I will always be a devoted Superman fan, but this new 52 stuff is taking a lot of effort for me to like what they're doing with Superman; I really hate this new look.:csad:
     
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  15. Mace Dolex

    Mace Dolex Powerful User

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    Say wha...? and I just bought that a few weeks ago.
     
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  16. Anubis

    Anubis Sup?

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    Yeah, that was a waste of cash.
     
    #41
  17. Mace Dolex

    Mace Dolex Powerful User

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    ^ AARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!

    *rips up entire comic book collection*
     
    #42
  18. CConn

    CConn Fountainhead of culture.

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    Don't do that. 0.2% of those books are probably still in continuity.
     
    #43
  19. Czar Colossus

    Czar Colossus Well-Known Member

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    I suppose it is going to be interesting to see what is being kept and what is not. Are they going to retell the death of Superman with Clark and Lois not a couple and Ma and Pa Kent dead or is that whole story getting thrown out?
     
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  20. Anubis

    Anubis Sup?

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    Supposedly he still died, but what actually happened will be radically changed........for instance the JLI wont have gotten their assess handed to them by Doomsday.
     
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  21. That person

    That person Bull Moose

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    And to retort:
    [​IMG]
    Compare it to:
    [​IMG]
    Obviously, both Byrne and Waid took some inspiration from the Golden Age, which is fine, because the Golden Age was awesome. Comparing the two, I'd say Birthright stayed truer to the spirit of the character and was a generally-better told story.
     
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  22. TruerToTheCore

    TruerToTheCore Well-Known Member

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    Yeah.
     
    #47
  23. Lord

    Lord All Mighty

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    While i now dislike the idea of Lex and Clark meeting in their youth i think the young Lex from Birthright was how he should be in that age, i still don't see the hate Birthright sometimes has
     
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  24. hopefuldreamer

    hopefuldreamer Clark Kent > Superman

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    I'm going to start this post by saying that I grew up on Lois and Clark as a kid, and because of that I used to defend Byrne's stories.

    But it hasn't taken a lot for me to kind of question their quality, and the intentions behind the entire Byrne reboot, which basically stripped the character of certain qualities and 'marvelised' him in a failed attempt to increase popularity.

    Also, Birthright is my favourite origin story, bar the young Lex stuff.

    I love how Clark is characterised, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.

     
    #49
  25. theMan-Bat

    theMan-Bat Team Classic DC

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    Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright was definitely not truer to the Golden Age Jerry Siegel Superman than John Byrne's The Man of Steel. The Jerry Siegel Golden Age foster father Kent was elderly, described as kind, loving and guided Clark with the foster parents advice to Clark to use his powers to assist humanity. Mark Waid's Jonathan Kent in Superman: Birthright is far younger and blonde (obviously to resemble actor John Schneider on the Smallville TV show), is cold, distant, barely spoke to Clark rather than encouraging and guiding Clark into using his powers to assist humanity. The Jerry Siegel Golden Age Luthor didn't meet Superman until he was an adult and hated him because he powers were a threat. Mark Waid's Lex Luthor in Superman: Birthright is from Smallville and met Clark as a boy and blames Clark for his baldness. Mark Waid's Superman: Birthright was actually closer to the Silver Age, as well as the Smallville TV show, with the House of El on Krypton from the Silver Age, Lex coming from Smallville and having been friends with Clark as in the Silver Age and as on the Smallville TV show, and blaming Clark for his baldness as in the Silver Age, a younger Jonathan and Martha Kent as in the Smallville TV show, etc.

    That snide "Marvelized" remark came about because John Byrne was coming over from Marvel to DC to revamp Superman. He didn't Marvelize the character. He didn't turn Superman into Spider-Man, or Wolverine, or Hulk, or Daredevil, or Thor, and he didn't turn Luthor into Kingpin either. Kingpin is a gigantic mobster and martial artist and carries a laser cane. Kingpin is incredibly strong, most of his body mass is actually muscle that has been built to extraordinary size, much like a sumo wrestler and is an extraordinarily skilled martial artist, especially in sumo wrestling and can beat his foes Spider-Man and Daredevil physically, Byrne's Luthor was much thinner and couldn't do any of the things Kingpin can and wouldn't because he thinks that's beneath him. Instead he matches his brains against Superman's strength by creating something to destroy Superman. Kingpin was always a minor player to Spider-Man, just a weird mobster, while Byrne's Luthor was Superman's arch enemy.
    And, actually, Superman's sales were declining before 1986, which is why DC wanted to revamp Superman in 1985 and hired John Byrne in the first place. And John Byrne actually boosted Superman's sales enormously in 1986 with The Man of Steel and John Byrne's run on the ongoing Superman titles. If Superman's sales were declining then DC certainly wouldn't have given Superman a fourth ongoing series in 1991 with Superman: The Man of Steel. The Death of Superman arc also boosted Superman's sales even further in 1992. Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman was a successful television series from 1993 to 1997, which was definitely influenced by John Byrne's run. Superman: The Wedding Album was also an enormous success in 1996. Superman has definitely had success since 1986.

    The Man of Steel is my favorite Superman origin story, including the Luthor stuff in it. I love how Clark is characterized, how his decision to become Superman is fleshed out with his kind foster parents, how his relationship with Lois begins, and how the world is introduced to him.

    Of course, because unfortunately that is what happened. By 1941 most Superman art was by Jack Burnley, Wayne Boring, Leo Nowak and Paul Cassidy, instead of Joe Shuster himself. Jerry Siegel also left DC by 1945, and Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster sued DC in 1946 over the rights of Superman. Don Cameron, Whitney Ellsworth, Bill Finger and Alvin Schwartz replaced Jerry Siegel. Mort Weisinger became the supervising editor in charge of the Superman books in 1948. Weisinger told the writers what kind of stories they had to write. Weisinger would come up with plots by asking young children what they think should happen in the next issue. Weisinger had Superman's origin majorly revamped with him having learned he was from Krypton while still a boy in Superman #132 (1959) "Superman's Other Life" and having battled crime as a youngster as Superboy, as recalled in Superman #72 (1951) "The Private Life of Perry White." In addition, it was stated that "Because of his super-memory, Superman can recall all the incidences of his childhood!" in Action Comics #288 (1962) "The Man Who Exposed Superman," and others. The complete revamp of Superman's origin was shown in Superman #146 (1961) "The Story of Superman's Life." Weisinger was also friendly with the boss, Jack Liebowitz, which further forced the writers into listening to what Mort told them to write. When financially troubled Jerry Siegel returned to DC in 1959 to 1966, Curt Swan recalled that Mort Weisinger bullied Siegel, simply because Siegel's circumstances made him unlikely to walk off for such mistreatment. Jerry Siegel wrote in a letter to Joe Shuster, "I get a lot of scorn, belittlement and hot-tempered abuse from Weisinger, who says my plotting and scripting is inferior. This is really making a buck the hard way, but it's the only way I can support my family." Curt Swan said that dealing with Weisinger caused himself recurrent headaches and temporarily drove him out of the business altogether in 1951. Otto Binder retired from the business in 1958, mainly to escape from dealing with Weisinger. Alvin Schwartz said, "Like many others, I found Weisinger difficult to deal with. But I endured until one day he insisted that I write a story in which Superman finds some way to transfer his powers to Lois Lane. … I thought such a plot was out of character." Alvin Schwartz wrote the story "The Superwoman of Metropolis" in Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane #8 (1959) against his will, then quit: "I never wrote comics again." Roy Thomas recalled dealing with Weisinger inclined him to leave DC after only 8 days and move to Marvel in 1965.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011

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