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Discussion in 'Suicide Squad' started by Blackman, Aug 7, 2016.
Amen to that.
I don't necessarily agree that is a problem. If they had a better, more well rounded script and less of the studio mucking about they would have scored big at the BO given the opening (and they still may)
Yeah also how is THIS studio supposed to make 5 successful movies?
I'm super late to all of this so I'm sure it's been done before. But aside from getting a different editor. I would've had each villain appear in a different movie first.
Let's assume all the members of the Justice League got their own movies before JL, and before SS.
Batman could've fought Harley and the Joker in his movie.
Aquaman could've encountered Killer Croc
The Flash could've thrown Boomerang in jail (again) and maybe dealt with Deadshot too.
Wonder Woman could've fought whatever the hell Diablo turned into.
Seeing all the Justice League members put them in jail in their own movies, then for them to come back and do this would've been great. They would be more fleshed out as characters, and it would be a cool nod to see them again.
Yep. This had all the makings of a major hit: Iconic characters, excellent performances, fun tone, etc... but Warner dropped the ball.
I would've let David Ayer deliver his cut of the movie. As simple as that!
At long last, decided how I would've altered this one.
1. Joker wouldve been the villain. Along with his army of criminal thugs. Thus providing a sensical reason to assemble a team of street-level villains with guns and baseball bats. Particularly Harley Quinn who knows the Joker's psyche but would have had her own agenda for getting back together with him.
2. Enchantress would have been majorly depowered as part of the team. We would have seen the entirety of her seduction of Flagg and her betrayal/brother would have been saved for a sequel.
3. Killer Croc replaced by King Shark with a scene of Momoa capturing him and throwing him ashore for imprisonment. He wouldn't have been an urban african american cliche. He'd have been given more to do.
4. Katana and Boomerang would be given something to do and more well-established "origins." Far easier task when they arent facing a giant magic demon.
5. Slipknot and Diablo removed entirely and saved for the sequel.
lol. there, basically nothing the same except Deadshot.
I've thought about this for a while since seeing the movie. In some regards it has the same problem BvS had - there are certain moments and scenes that are very good and enjoyable when looked on their own, but for some reason the end result is that the whole is less than the sum of its parts. It's very weird
So let's see... A list would probably make this more structured lol
1) The characters:
- One of the film's big flaws in my eyes was that there wasn't a main character. That's really the same problem that The Phantom Menace has (other than Gungans and kiddy!Anakin, obviously) - there are a bunch of characters that all seem important at certain times, but they have no real arcs and the story is not about them all the time. Which means that the viewer has not much of a reason to care what happens to them. I thought about it and I still can't figure out who's supposed to be the main character - is it Flag, is it Deadshot? Harley? The film itself doesn't appear to know that answer too
So for a start, I'd pick one, give them a story arc and try to focus most of the story through their POV. Flag seems like the most conventional choice, as he allows you to have a more sympathetic main character in a movie where the rest of the cast are hardened criminals. It's a pretty natural arc too, you can have him realize what a bad idea Task Force X is, that Waller is a scumbag and he doesn't have to blindly follow her orders, that even the supervillains can have humanizing traits, you can have an actual love story with June Moone (more on that below) instead of a flashback etc.
- Completely recast and rewrite Deadshot. I like Will Smith as much as the next guy and I appreciate the star power he brought to the table, but that just wasn't Deadshot. Deadshot is not supposed to be a likable and heroic anti-hero who only assassinates criminals, he's a stone cold sociopath who has no regard for human life, including his own. When he's on a mission he doesn't care about the money like it was shown when he was introduced, he's a death- and thrill-seeker.
- Completely remove Katana and El Diablo as they only clutter the already-big cast. Katana simply wasn't needed in that film and just took space. Not to mention that a backstory like hers can be saved for a sequel instead of just being told in a few confusing sentences. As to Diablo, I liked him for most of the film, but like Katana he would work better for a sequel in which you can devote more time to his story and sacrifice so it would actually pack a punch (which it really didn't in the movie).
- No Enchantress. The whole thing felt nonsensical and she was the type of villain you don't give a crap about because there's no personal connection to the protagonists. Well, there was Flag and all, but they literally had no time together before she escaped and so the viewer was indifferent to his plight. I would keep June, though. First, because Cara Delevingne is cool, and second, because she's the type of character that would work much better if you take your time with the possession, building the tension, showing her struggle and fear, and upping the ante. More on that below when I get to the plot.
- The rest of the characters are fine as they are. Waller was portrayed very well, though I wouldn't bother with that whole "she was secretly in Midtown the whole time" thing at all. Boomerang is ok, you always need someone who brings a bit of levity. Croc... I dunno... he wasn't terribly important, but I suppose you need muscle for the team, so fine. But make him more feral and hateful.
Joker and Harley I would keep as they are; I am aware that the whole thing has become somewhat controversial, with a lot of Leto's screentime being cut and with the relationship being more romantic and less abusive than it was in the comics and the cartoons, but I think that it was fresh, that it worked and, to be honest, I enjoyed it a lot. Also, it could actually serve some storytelling purpose by creating some parallels with what Flag and June have. The only thing I would probably change is not cut so much of the Joker's scenes because I felt that it wasn't explained properly how he managed to do a lot of stuff like finding out about the nanobombs and who made them (like, you can make the mental leapfrog and all, considering that he got his hands on that guard, but how did he know about the guard in the first place? Stuff like that, a bit more explanation never hurt anyone).
2) The plot:
- First off, as I said above, no Enchantress and no destroying and saving the world. That stuff is the heroes' territory and the villains should have a different problem to solve. Also, and that's even worse, by having that whole thing in the first movie, you ruin yourself for potential sequels. If they already saved the world, what's next? The galaxy?
The thing with the Enchantress actually can work, I think, but only in a sequel if you have taken your time with June before. That way you have that personal connection with both the rest of the characters and with the viewer that lacked in the actual film.
- Make the conflict smaller and more intimate. The Suicide Squad is a black-ops team, they're not the Dark Avengers. Something with, say, Deathstroke can work well, and you can even tie it up with BvS and MoS by having him be enhanced with Kryptonian tech or something. The team can be sent to silence him, or he can target the government and you can have the team uncover what has been done to him over the course of the film. Whatever, there's stuff that can be done in that direction, the most important thing is that it needs to be smaller and not so all-over-the-place. Add the attacks from the Joker who is hellbent on rescuing his girl, and you have a nice action/thriller that is about things like personal vendettas, intrigue, top secret government atrocities etc. instead of villains who save the world which is yaaaaawn.
3) The tone of the film. I find it very ironic that the DCEU made two dark movies about their heroes, and they then made a more lighthearted one about the villains. I understand why that was done, a lot of fans were unhappy with Snyder's grimdark, the studio wanted to copy Guardians of the Galaxy's success etc. etc. In an ideal world, I would make Suicide Squad more dark and violent than it is now, but in order for that to work you have to rework BvS and MoS too.
There's probably more that can be done, but I don't actually have a screenplay, so at this point I'm out of details.
I think there are dozens of possible other movies that could've been made that would've been better - but in terms of improving the movie that actually was made (and I think this absolutely could've been done, and could've been great):
1. The entire front half needs serious reworking. Simplify the timeline, start with the exposition scene first and lead into the character introductions. For the exposition scene, Waller's dinner should be fused together with the pentagon briefing - having two separate scenes back to back saying the exact same thing was stupid. Throw out the 'edgy' fourth wall breaking grafitti stunt which didn't add much and wasn't even carried through to the rest of the movie. Keep the first introductions/briefing file scenes short and to the point. Pick up the real character introductions in the prison as the characters are being collected to join the squad. Save the rest of the character stuff for flashbacks later in the movie (spread them out and time them to have maximum effect for the character in question - El Diablo's backstory was the one that was done right, here). Cut out Katana's flashback and Boomerang's flashback entirely. They served no purpose. In fact, I would seriously consider cutting Katana entirely. Cut out Deadshot's 'audition' scene, which made no sense logicallly or chronologically. Introduce Slipknot right alongside the other characters. Give the squad an actual briefing about their mission to signal a clear transition from the first half of the movie into the second.
2. Unlike many, I don't think the squad needed an entirely different mission. Just changing the location would solve all the basic problems: instead of Enchantress attacking Midway City, she attacks some empty ghost town which happens to hide Waller's secret base.
3. Remove the Joker's present day scenes, except the ending. He should've been backstory, not a random tag along.
4. Keep Harley's escape attempt and have Deadshot actually shoot her. This could've been a major turning point for audiences in general: proof that these characters really aren't the heroes, nor are they really 'family' as is the case in every other comic book movie ever. Having it come from a character with the charm of Will Smith would've only made the decision even more shocking and effective.
5. Redesign the minions. Faceless minions are fine for this kind of search and destroy action movie. Power Rangers rejects are not fine.
6. Remove the brother figure. Again, he served no purpose. El Diablo could've fought the Enchantress herself. It would've made his sacrifice far more interesting and effective.
7. Put Harley on the other side. After she's shot midway through, the Echantress rescues her and forces her to help her. But Harley double crosses her some time during the final fight and helps the squad kill her.
8. Don't show Captain Boomerang walking out on everyone for a cheap laugh. Or do show it, and just follow through with it. Him instantly coming back for no reason was laughably bad.
9. Ditch the Egyptian crap. The first Enchantress design was creepy as hell and generally fantastic. The later 'power-up' was lame and ineffective. Also, ditch the weird dancing on the portal.
10. Don't put so much of the focus of the final fight on explosives. Let Enchantress fight them all at once in a giant battle, and kick every one of their butts, until Harley and Deadshot silently outsmart her and stab her with the magic sword (or equivalent).
11. Don't have the most established character in the franchise show up at the end of the very first SS movie and issue an ultimatum that it has to end or else. Seriously, JL vs SS is not a promise you can live up to, especially with El Diablo and Enchantress dead. It seems rather doubtful it would even be a good idea to begin with, anyway.
12. ETA: Almost forgot - cut the 'topical' use of popular music by at least half. That was massive overkill and very quickly went from serving the movie to just desperately trying to make it feel like GotG.
I would've went full-tilt with the occultism.
Redesign the Eyes so that, in addition to the eyes, they have snouts and horns kinda like that altar design where Dr Moone found Enchantress and Incubus. Then have scenes in Midway where the SS come upon them gathered around a fire, maybe burning a weapons developer (since the siblings were raging about them), doing a weird growly chant.
Give Killer Croc a bit more.
And that's it.
I'll fix your Boomer critique - just give him something about "had to find the good stuff" *shakes beer can*
JL vs SS always seemed more a matter of principle than fisticuffs. In the comics, Batman hates Waller's team because it makes a mockery of his work as a vigilante. I kinda hope they explore that, but I also don't want my SS sequels to get hopelessly tangled in with the JL stuff.
I like this! Maybe Joker using other patients as human shields against the gun fire.
So many valid points in this thread, I don't even have anything to add. Agree with the most of it.
I would've had task force X be a covert team that had already been in full operation for some years, give the team a real backstory and show some of the revolving cast of characters the team usually has. Make Flagg, Deadshot, and diablo all surviving vets of the team. Harley, boomer, croc as new comers. So there could be a bit of a dysfunctional family dynamic.
Hindsight is 20/20 but after watching it I would have done the following -
*Waller needs to retrieve some high tech weapons made from reversed engineered Kryptonian tech. Gives you a link to the DCEU without being anchored to MoS.
*The villains take hostages in a waco texas style stand off, and Waller sends in the SS to do a rescue and weapons retrieval.
*Why the SS and not a normal SWAT team? Well the twist is, Waller created and sold the weapons, but her deal backfired and now she needs a Task Force X to cover her tracks.
*The villains are Commons gangster character and the Joker. They've already been on a week long killing and robbery spree and Waller is desperate to cover her tracks. Or maybe there both fighting each other with these alien weapons in some kind of turf war. It's causing alot of collateral and drawing too much attention. As long as it stays grounded and street level.
Maybe she uses the fear of and evil superman as an excuse/cover to form the team, or she just doesn't mention superman at all. SS are not powerful enough to fight superman, so why bring it up. The killing spree with high tech weapons would be excuse enough, as long as Waller is able to cover the fact that she's responsible for the whole thing. That would be the 3rd act reveal.
Yea it's cliched af. It's basically Dredd/Raid meets escape from New York. But at least it would be inexpensive and will actually justify Harley Quin as a squad member, as she has an understanding of the Joker.
*Also I would have had Boomerang leave at the bar scene and not come back. Post credit, have him catch a bus to Central City. Set him up to be a Flash Rouge. If he did come back from the finale, just have him come back to steal something and just accidentally contribute to the fight.
*I felt the bad guys were WAY too heroic. After Deadshot fakes a shot at Harley, wouldn't it be funny if Boomerang said, "Ah Hell I'll do ti then.." and just throws a boomerang at Harley. Joker can shoot it out of the air, but it would be funny to see that he's still and bad mofo.
*I really miss the Deadshot/Boomerang tension from Attack on Arkham. Would have liked to see more of that.
I was actually shocked when she came back. She has no powers. WTF can she contribute to the team now? Like you said, wasted opportunity to have Flagg move into a darker and more emotionally hardened character. Not to mention the movie is called "SUICIDE" squad, and only 2 characters died. One of them was a complete throwaway.
It was probably one of the late stage rewrites, to try to make the movie lighter. Its not about what June Moon can do for the team, its about making the ending more upbeat and triumphant.
I would've thrown in a scene like this after they realize the Eyes were civilians: Boomer's reprimanded for looting the dead, Harley questions that since *these* were the kind of people that hate their guts. Then have Harley, Boomer, and Croc going harder on the Eyes in their next series of fights.
Maybe retool the device so it merely targets military installations tying into the idea that Enchantress and Incubus wanted to establish their own nation-state away from the firestorms tearing up their home in the infernal realms. Have them only fire it off once they realize the Suicide Squad has entered their new nation-state. They'd treat the incursion as an act of war from a hostile nation.
I will say, it seemed pretty evident that you mains here were Deadshot, Harley, and Diablo. Then you have Flag as a secondary main. The rest were supporting players; the Han Solos to your Luke Skywalkers.
I suspect they wanted to leave the door open for some sort of illogical return of the enchantress. They also went out of their way to stab her with the magic sword that 'traps souls', so I wouldn't be entirely surprised if the sequel has the enchantress escape the sword and go back into June's body.
While I know some probably wouldn't go for this...I would have added one more Batman cameo into the film. As a few fans have already stated, it's interesting how Joker is moving about with no interaction with Batman. Batman wouldn't rest until Joker was locked up again in Arkham.
I would have kept the line of dialogue where Joker says, "I can't wait to show you my new toys." and allude to that he is about to physically torture the guy, using grotesque methods, to get the information he wants. As he reaches for a saw or something, I would have had a "comic book panel money shot" of Batman breaking into the club through the skylight. (I only saw the film once but, I could have sworn there were entry points above.)
I would have had the Joker look out into the club/crowd to see Batman fighting off a wave of Jokers men. *Think Tom Cruise in Michael Mann's "Collateral"* Joker then would be foiled out of torturing the guy and have to make a run for it. In my head, it looks like a pretty awesome scene.
Also, I think it delivers on what David Ayer promised in terms of the Batman scenes. It's Batman from the villains point of view. That was something that intrigued me. I thought he was going to really go all out with it. Even if it was just a cameo. I think my friend said it best, it would be the docks scene in Batman Begins but dialed up to an eleven.
I know Suicide Squad isn't really about Batman but, I just wanted to see more interaction between Batman and Joker.
In retrospect, I actually kind of agree. . . with the proviso that if your going to include a lot more Batman in the movie? You kind of need to make the plot about Batman, at least partially. "The Suicide Squad go after Batman" would be a bad idea, for various reasons, but "The Suicide Squad and Batman are competing to achieve some common goal" could work. I dislike Assault on Arkham, but something vaguely like that would work. It lets you have Batman as obstacle and foil, and can potentially sell Waller as one of the ultimate hardasses of the setting.
The danger is, if Batman is the antagonist, there's a good chance the audience will be rooting for him, not the Squad.
Some changes I would have made:
- Cut Katana, Killer Croc and Boomerang. None of these characters really did anything. Flag, Harley, Deadshot and El Diablo where a good core team, the others seemed extraneous.
- Few more minutes spent on Slipknot. Include him in those little intro vignettes. Would have made his death actually shocking as opposed to incredibly telegraphed.
- Enchantress wouldn't be the villain. She'd be part of the team, like their equivalent of the Hulk (unstable powerhouse kept on a dubious leash by the shy scientist). The film never really got to explore much of the June/Enchantress dynamic.
- Poison Ivy as the villain. She has powers, but she's low key enough that the Squad could realistically beat her. As a member of Batman's Rogue gallery, Harley knows about her, giving her a reason to be on the Squad. Plus even though they'd start out as enemies, you could start to develop Harley/Ivy's relationship.
- Redesign Joker to actually dress like the Joker
- Don't make Harley the center of Joker's universe
- Make Joker the main antagonist that the Squad has to take down
- Get rid of Enchantress altogether
- Cut Katana, Croc and Boomerang out. They added nothing.
Eh, Katana *should* serve a purpose: Rick Flagg's "muscle" to keep the Squad in line. Its just, they cut all her role out. If you cut out the 2nd and 3rd "introductions", there should be plenty of time to actually have her fill a role.
Likewise, you really do still need Boomerang, both because he's an iconic team member and so the roster doesn't get too threadbare. He can be the completely unlikable comic relief. I wouldn't be averse to ditching Croc entirely, though.
To help with this, I'd suggest ditching the whole brigade of nameless ordinary soldiers. Nothing they do that can't instead be done by the Squad.