Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Batmansvoice, Sep 23, 2012.
This is an excellent post.
^ It is an excellent post and I don't see how anyone can say that Bruce and Rachel had some deep connection. They were boring whenever they were together, and I never once got the vibe that Bruce was attracted to her (either of the Rachels). The two times they kissed, it felt like they were kissing for absolutely no logical reason.
Can't really say it's twisting facts to support a shipper fantasy when Bruce and Selina do actually end up together at the end of the movie. Just saying. *Shrugs*
I guess you thought I was kidding.....I wasn't. You are banned....your original name is banned.
Quite funny how some just don't seem to get that not every person views onscreen events the same way.
Or rather they just refuse to accept it.
Ultimately, I don't even dispute that Selina was "Right" for Bruce at the end...I just disagree with this idea that Rachel didn't "get" or understand Bruce. I also disagree with the idea that she was "wrong" for Bruce on a personality level. Circumstance-wise, yes. But to act like they had nothing in common dosen't make sense to me, even if the character was poorly acted.
I enjoyed Bruce and Selina's scenes, and was fine with the ending. However, for me the deepest connection of the trilogy is between Bruce and Rachel. I don't see how it can be otherwise. She had the greatest impact on him in life and death. Christian Bale's acting overcame most of my problems with the lack of "chemistry", lacklustre acting from Holmes and Gyllenhaal, and the flawed writing. An example of which is the "Dear Bruce" letter which has been mentioned here. It did a disservice to Rachel's character. Here's a woman who's slapped Bruce twice, yet she can't face Bruce to tell him she's marrying Harvey Dent? Another scene which undermined their relationship was the scene in TDK, when Bruce make the Lamborghini joke following the grieving scene for Rachel. That was just incomprehensible.
I disagree with those who say Bruce and Rachel have nothing in common. They are very alike in many ways. Both are crusaders in their own fashion, idealistic, courageous, and incorruptible. I read somewhere that Bruce was looking for his hero without a mask, not realizing that he had one in Rachel. I thought that was very accurate.
Rachel, hands down.
Selina showed up in the last act of the trilogy, and so didn't have much time to get to know Bruce, whereas Rachel had two whole movies with him.
Selina and Bruce had little screentime together, while Rachel and Bruce knew each other since childhood.
Rachel helped show Bruce the difference between justice and revenge, and was kind of a moral compass for Bruce.
Her letter in TDK foreshadowed the finale of TDK, when The Joker had the two ferries ready to blow. Batman didn't believe the people would blow each other up, because he had too much faith in them, as her letter said: "Don't lose your faith in people." Bruce didn't read the letter, but still, there's a connection there.
But then again, who cares if Bruce spent his whole childhood with Rachel, who cares if Rachel was his only true friend? Who cares that she is the only person that ever really understood him? Who cares that he pined for her all of his life, and learned many lessons from her which helped mold him into Batman? Selina is a sexy babe in a tight outfit! She was in the comic book, and Rachel wasn't!
she is not
She was the only person to realize that Batman was the real face and Bruce was the mask.
And she's known him longer than anyone (except Alfred)
In TDK, she already admited that Alfred know Bruce better than her(or anyone) at the time
if she really understand him, this conversation would not occured
-Alfred,Why is he letting Harvey do this?
He went down to the press conference.
-I know. He just stood by.
Perhaps both Bruce and Mr. Dent believe that Batman stands for something more important than the whims of a terrorist, Miss Dawes even if everyone hates him for it.That's the sacrifice he's making.
He's not being a hero. He's being something more.
-Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Letting Harvey take the fall for this is not heroic at all.
You know him better than anyone.
there is a question
this thread is about who(as female)shared a deeper connection with Wayne--- how do we define this"connection"?
Rachel Dawes has her own creed & code/principle---before her life come to its end, Wayne's behavior/principle is not fit in her creed /principle anymore to a degree that she could not understand his act and rebuke him in front Alfred and then formally ditch him---obviously she would not change her creed / principle to conform Bruce Wayne's
Selina Kyle has her own creeds & codes/principles---self-preservation/ self-centered ideology(which also not fit with Wayne's) ---eventually she did something to break her own creeds& codes
You almost swayed my opinion. However, if we rethink this, we're putting everything in Bruce's perspective, and what you have above would hold firmly. Yet a connection has to be mutual, from both sides. By TDK, Rachel was iffy about having any connection with Bruce, and at the time of her death, she chose Harvey, meaning that she decides to have both Batman and Bruce out of her life. Whereas Selina on the other hand was drawing closer and closer, which probably lead to the kiss and them being together at the end.
I agree to some extent. Rachel and Bruce shared a connection. It was a different kind of relationship from "movies" point of view. Many criticize this relationship because it didn't feel romantic enough. It was not meant to be. They were friends, they obviously liked each other and wanted something more, but they slowly fell apart.
There are a couple of nice moments in Begins. When Bruce arrives to Gotham, Rachel hears the news and is shocked. She moved on, but now she has hope for something more with Bruce, not sure how to manage all of that. And when Bruce encounters Rachel after his first playboy millionaire act, he wants her to see him as who he really is. He wants her to understand him because he has hope for them too.
Rachel Dawes: I never stopped thinking about you. About us. And when I heard you were back, I-I started to hope.
Bruce Wayne: [Rachel kisses Bruce]
Rachel Dawes: But then I found out about your mask.
Bruce Wayne: Batman's just a symbol, Rachel.
Rachel Dawes: [Rachel touches Bruce's face] No, *this* is your mask. Your real face is the one that criminals now fear. The man I loved - the man who vanished - he never came back at all. But maybe he's still out there, somewhere. Maybe some day, when Gotham no longer needs Batman, I'll see him again.
At the end of Begins, Rachel sees a new shade of Bruce's personality. She now knows that he is not some irresponsible playboy. He is noble, he has a purpose and a mission. She admires that, but I don't think she is sure she likes it. Now she has hope, the same hope Bruce has, at least for now. In TDK, Rachel has moved on. She found Harvey Dent someone who understands her, someone who share goals and interest, someone who loves her. But she still harbors feelings for Bruce.That's why she allows Bruce to kiss him in the apartment scene, thats why she hasn't told Harvey her response about marrying him. She is still not sure. That's her predicament in the movie. She has to make a choice.
As the film progresses, she realizes that Bruce and her have grown apart, that she doesn't want to follow Bruce into that path. When Dent takes the fall saying that he is Batman, Rachel is upset that Bruce didn't say anything. She cares for Harvey, whereas she doesn't understand Bruce. She chooses Harvey Dent, but she knows that Bruce would be deeply hurt by all of these. Then came the letter. It is a great thing with a beautiful, and at the same time sad message. She is hurt by all of these, she knows she gave Bruce hope for something that now she can't give to him. She is honest, and she still cares for Bruce by encouraging him to not lose faith in people. It was the most sensible thing for her to do, she couldn't handle it. And she knows that Bruce might lose his faith in her, she takes that chance.
It was a more complex thing than it appears.
Pretty much sums it up.
I mean, my question is this: If you somehow put Selina in a time machine, took her back 8 years, and had her encounter BB/TDK Bruce, do you think those two would end up in a cafe together? IMO, it would've ended up like the relationship they had in Jeph Loeb's "Long Halloween" and "Dark Victory" books.
If you ask me, I would say yes. It would be a different story though. She did rob him in Rises. She was a thief, and Bruce still liked her. She was lost, much the same he was in the past. I think it is safe to assume that Batman could see good in her. The fact that she was a survivor reminds me of the flashback in Begins where Bruce tells Ra's that the first time he stole:
Bruce Wayne: The first time I stole so that I wouldn't starve, yes. I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong.
I still think that, even she appears for one movie, Selina Kyle's character and his interactions with Bruce Wayne conveys a lot of meaning and substance, and it is satisfactory for the characters themselves and for us as viewers. We really don't need to see more. At the end we know that Bruce overcame his pain, he made Gotham a better place, and is willing to have a better life.
We can't help but put ourselves in Alfred's shoes. We want Bruce to be happy, and at the end, faith was rewarded.
I agree. The most interesting aspect of Bruce and Selina relationship in comics, cartoons or any other place is see how their interactions affect each other, without the "couple" thing. They aren't that in Rises, they are kinda building some embasament to be that someday. And I liked we just saw the "start" of that because, at first, to me, seeing them as a stable couple is... I don't know, boring. And second, because I don't know if Nolan could write that properly.
Maybe a more a challenging debate would be on asking which kiss looked hotter between Bruce's kiss with Talia or his kisses with Selina.haha
Bruce and Talia, easily.
But Bruce and Selina's kisses were much more romantic.
stable couple ---consider that pearl necklace(and there could be months or nearly a year has past between aftermath of Bane's occupation and Florence cafe scene)
boring---I think it depends,if someone can creat a exquisite story such as the one(Adaptation) written by "Yours Hopefully", then nothing boring but outstanding(good enough for me).
I'm not talking about fanfics, but comics in general. I don't like this aspect in Hush, for example. Before the reboot of the DC Universe in comics, they were very boring. I didn't like Selina's reaction when she saw Bruce for the first time after he returned "from his death". Was out of the character to me, I don't know.
that is why I used "if"
you mean in TDKR?
No, I liked each scene of them in Rises. That you mentioned is amazing too, everything was better that I expected. The reaction I mentioned was in comics, Batman - Streets of Gotham #17. There's more, I didn't find the page:
I always thought it would've been cool if instead of Rachel Dawes that it would've been Talia (Miranda) in Begins, TDK, and then reveal her in TDKR as Talia
So Bruce would have grown up with Ra's Al Ghul's daughter?