Which superhero film has the best space aesthetic?

[Mjölnir]

That's probably exactly what they were going for. Krypton was a dead world, it was an evolutionary dead end, perfect in all of the wrong ways.
They could have gone further, actually.

Didn't see you addressing me until now. It was probably intentional but yet another contradictory thing with Krypton because the characters did not act like they were the products of such sterility. Just as they didn't act like they were engineered for specific tasks either, and so on. It's not really the artists fault, but the writing made the visuals fall apart anyway by breaking the context.

It's a big shame imo. The Krypton the movie told us about sounded absolutely awesome in a dystopic way, but it mostly showed something entirely different.

 

[DA_Champion]

Didn't see you addressing me until now. It was probably intentional but yet another contradictory thing with Krypton because the characters did not act like they were the products of such sterility. Just as they didn't act like they were engineered for specific tasks either, and so on. It's not really the artists fault, but the writing made the visuals fall apart anyway by breaking the context.

It's a big shame imo. The Krypton the movie told us about sounded absolutely awesome in a dystopic way, but it mostly showed something entirely different.

They in fact did exactly like they were the product of a dead world that believed it was perfect but was in fact perfect in the wrong ways.

The ruling council could not conceive of there being problems with Krypton, in the same way that American leadership can't conceive that "free-market capitalism" can cause environmental problems.

That's how the movie starts, Jor-El tells them to stop mining. If they stop mining, that will solve all of Krypton's short-term problems. They refuse to do so because they are incapable of conceiving that they have any problems.

Later on, Zod tries to Kryptonform (not Terraform) Earth to turn it into Krypton. He wants to restore Krypton exactly to how it was before, even though they would benefit from having superpowers, he doesn't even consider that possibility because he doesn't want a different Krypton. That engineering operation exposes his forces to weakness, and Superman is able to defeat them with help from the military.

 

[Mjölnir]

They in fact did exactly like they were the product of a dead world that believed it was perfect but was in fact perfect in the wrong ways.

The ruling council could not conceive of there being problems with Krypton, in the same way that American leadership can't conceive that "free-market capitalism" can cause environmental problems.

That's how the movie starts, Jor-El tells them to stop mining. If they stop mining, that will solve all of Krypton's short-term problems. They refuse to do so because they are incapable of conceiving that they have any problems.

Later on, Zod tries to Kryptonform (not Terraform) Earth to turn it into Krypton. He wants to restore Krypton exactly to how it was before, even though they would benefit from having superpowers, he doesn't even consider that possibility because he doesn't want a different Krypton. That engineering operation exposes his forces to weakness, and Superman is able to defeat them with help from the military.

That the leaders don't see the problem is a baseline criteria for the story to work, but why they would continue to create scientists to challenge their way of thinking (as that's what scientists do) if they can't even be persuaded about such a simple problem as over-mining, which can't be hard to prove mathematically in their civilization that had been far beyond ours for tens of thousands of years?

That's one of the major flaws of the Krypton they show. They say that the people are genetically built for certain tasks yet no one seems great at their job, except maybe Jor-El who is even great at things he shouldn't be great at in the described context. Zod is the worst case. He's a soldier but still got completely and utterly humiliated in combat against a scientist. He's a leader but could only get a minority of his military to follow him. He's a strategist but still went ahead to try to take over with an inferior force while knowing that the larger opposing force will arrive within short time and can just beat him down.

One example of how we're told something cool, that people are engineered to be perfect in one role and can't change, and then we just see some people in a sci-fi settings acting like regular humans.

 

[DA_Champion]

That the leaders don't see the problem is a baseline criteria for the story to work, but why they would continue to create scientists to challenge their way of thinking (as that's what scientists do) if they can't even be persuaded about such a simple problem as over-mining, which can't be hard to prove mathematically in their civilization that had been far beyond ours for tens of thousands of years?

Because they can't evolve. A thousand years ago or whenever they were set to develop a few scientists, and they keep making them.

It didn't matter at first as no doubt at first Krypton was in fact close to perfect and the scientists would have said "everything is great". Now they're saying everything is flawed, it's a contradiction in their society, which they can't resolve due to their inability to adapt.

Again, our own government can't be persuaded about something as simple as global warming, which is straightforward to prove mathematically, and it keeps funding these scientists.

That's the metaphor intended by the people who made the movie. Russell Crowe talks about in the bonus features.

**********

I don't disagree about Zod beating up Jor-El. That would have been better. That's an error in the movie.

 

[Mjölnir]

Because they can't evolve. A thousand years ago or whenever they were set to develop a few scientists, and they keep making them.

It didn't matter at first as no doubt at first Krypton was in fact close to perfect and the scientists would have said "everything is great". Now they're saying everything is flawed, it's a contradiction in their society, which they can't resolve due to their inability to adapt.

Again, our own government can't be persuaded about something as simple as global warming, which is straightforward to prove mathematically, and it keeps funding these scientists.

That's the metaphor intended by the people who made the movie. Russell Crowe talks about in the bonus features.

**********

I don't disagree about Zod beating up Jor-El. That would have been better. That's an error in the movie.

If they can't evolve, how come the leaders suddenly stopped believing the scientists? Clearly they actually have "evolved" in this area if it was as you describe it. Stopping the mining isn't really a social revolution either since it's a basic concept that natural resources are finite (they say nothing about mining something that is rapidly replenishing), and as long as their civilization has run on they must have had plenty of things end (their colonies, etc).

And the global warming issue is not a simple issue for us. The structural integrity of a planet should be far simpler for a people that have actually mastered terraforming, as the former should be very important for the latter.

This is not one of the issues I have the most problems with though, since there's no story if there's a logically behaving government. The issue of saying one thing and showing something else, or just saying things that doesn't make sense (like Jor-El's reason for not coming with Kal), is widespread though and for most of the time it makes no sense even for the story.

 

[Keehar]

GotG by far.
Asgard, especially in TDW, was a beautiful mixture of art deco, viking culture and Jack Kirby but the other realms shown in the Thor movies didn't impress me that much.
Krypton in MoS was depressing and sterile.
GL was just a bunch of exploding colours everywhere

This. Perfect sum up here.

 

[kedrell]

^The same for me.

 

[DA_Champion]

If they can't evolve, how come the leaders suddenly stopped believing the scientists? Clearly they actually have "evolved" in this area if it was as you describe it. Stopping the mining isn't really a social revolution either since it's a basic concept that natural resources are finite (they say nothing about mining something that is rapidly replenishing), and as long as their civilization has run on they must have had plenty of things end (their colonies, etc).

And the global warming issue is not a simple issue for us. The structural integrity of a planet should be far simpler for a people that have actually mastered terraforming, as the former should be very important for the latter.

This is not one of the issues I have the most problems with though, since there's no story if there's a logically behaving government. The issue of saying one thing and showing something else, or just saying things that doesn't make sense (like Jor-El's reason for not coming with Kal), is widespread though and for most of the time it makes no sense even for the story.

Stopping the mining is a social revolution. Krypton would have had to do without energy or with much less energy for an extended period of time.

The analogy is to Earth giving up fossil fuels. That would be a social revolution, which is why we're not giving up fossil fuels. We'd rather stick our heads in the sand and pretend sea levels won't rise by multiple feet, than make the changes necessary. If we stop using fossil fuels a lot of rich people will no longer be important, and a lot of other people will deal with a decreased standard of living.

Global warming is actually not that complicated. It began to be understood a hundred years ago, back then it was considered a great idea. On the other hand, people in government likes James Inhofe don't really understand it, just like the Kryptonian ruling council.

*********

Jor-El didn't come with Kal because he believed he (Jor-El) was the product of a dead world. It was clearly good enough for Goyer and Snyder but I agree, it's not good enough.

 

[Mjölnir]

Stopping the mining is a social revolution. Krypton would have had to do without energy or with much less energy for an extended period of time.

The analogy is to Earth giving up fossil fuels. That would be a social revolution, which is why we're not giving up fossil fuels. We'd rather stick our heads in the sand and pretend sea levels won't rise by multiple feet, than make the changes necessary. If we stop using fossil fuels a lot of rich people will no longer be important, and a lot of other people will deal with a decreased standard of living.

Global warming is actually not that complicated. It began to be understood a hundred years ago, back then it was considered a great idea. On the other hand, people in government likes James Inhofe don't really understand it, just like the Kryptonian ruling council.

*********

Jor-El didn't come with Kal because he believed he (Jor-El) was the product of a dead world. It was clearly good enough for Goyer and Snyder but I agree, it's not good enough.

It's true, at that point it's a big change, but what I meant is that it couldn't be anything new and they must have had other sources of energy strong enough even for space exploration as their civilization was almost up to 100k years old (unless I've forgotten). But I shouldn't go on about that since, as said, it's not the actual problem or solution that's an issue, it's that we're told of this advanced society with several weird aspects but they just behave like humans (which are also said to be so different according to Jor-El).

As for Jor-El's reason, my problem isn't that it's not enough, it's that it doesn't make sense. If it's about society Jor-El already showed that he's capable of going against all that. If it's about DNA Kal-El still has the DNA of his parents, making him a product of Krypton. It's a case of making the solution too complex to make sense, instead of just making it practically impossible for them to join their son.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's true, at that point it's a big change, but what I meant is that it couldn't be anything new and they must have had other sources of energy strong enough even for space exploration as their civilization was almost up to 100k years old (unless I've forgotten). But I shouldn't go on about that since, as said, it's not the actual problem or solution that's an issue, it's that we're told of this advanced society with several weird aspects but they just behave like humans (which are also said to be so different according to Jor-El).

Within the movie's expanded universe the core is made of exotic matter and collapses to form a neutron star at the end of the planet's life. That makes no sense at all and it's not in the movie itself**, but if you assume it to be true then they will have no source of energy as good as their planet's core.

Aliens behaving like humans and effectively being humans is a scifi cliche. It also makes no sense at all, but it's from the source material, just like Xandar and Asgaard in GoTG and Thor, respectively.

** I think when you see the planet blew up you see a neutron star remnant as the core for 0.2 seconds, so in an obtuse and pedantic way, it is in the movie... show don't tell

As for Jor-El's reason, my problem isn't that it's not enough, it's that it doesn't make sense. If it's about society Jor-El already showed that he's capable of going against all that. If it's about DNA Kal-El still has the DNA of his parents, making him a product of Krypton. It's a case of making the solution too complex to make sense, instead of just making it practically impossible for them to join their son.

It's not Kryptonian DNA that's the problem, it's Kryptonian mating practices which limit the DNA combinations, and Kryptonian culture.

But in general I agree on Jor-El. He's too much of a God character. He reminds me of Khan Noonien Singh from Star Trek into Darkness.

 

[Mjölnir]

Within the movie's expanded universe the core is made of exotic matter and collapses to form a neutron star at the end of the planet's life. That makes no sense at all and it's not in the movie itself**, but if you assume it to be true then they will have no source of energy as good as their planet's core.

Aliens behaving like humans and effectively being humans is a scifi cliche. It also makes no sense at all, but it's from the source material, just like Xandar and Asgaard in GoTG and Thor, respectively.

** I think when you see the planet blew up you see a neutron star remnant as the core for 0.2 seconds, so in an obtuse and pedantic way, it is in the movie... show don't tell


It's not Kryptonian DNA that's the problem, it's Kryptonian mating practices which limit the DNA combinations, and Kryptonian culture.

But in general I agree on Jor-El. He's too much of a God character. He reminds me of Khan Noonien Singh from Star Trek into Darkness.

Yeah, weird science aside that would be pretty special and of course perhaps a bit weirder effect to convince people of.

I don't necessarily mind human-like behavior since it can be necessary to make characters and stories relatable, but you can't go on and say that it's so different if it's not in practice.


Well, the DNA combination issue isn't really explained so that could be. Kryptonian culture can't be a factor since Jor-El actively found the problems with it.

But I guess I've made my point and it's not really fruitful for me to sit here and keep saying what's bad about it as I don't have to see it again. There are people that like it and that's great for them.

 

[Zantera]

GOTG easily.