Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[returntovoid]

Aside from the one-liners, I wonder if the differences between BB and TDK, has something to do with more of David Goyers writing on BB, while Goyers TDK script was re-written by the Nolan brothers.

 

[david icke]

There are one or two things in TDK that make me grate my teeth, every time. The SWAT guy driving with Gordon during the Joker chase is one. "Ok thats not good... THATS not good!" Bad, hammy acting.

Nicky Katz is a good actor though. Amongst other things he's great in Richard Linklater's 'Suburbia' and his small role in 'Dazed and Confused.' I don't know how that kind of line could have been delivered any better, it's just that he had a bad generic line to deliver there. I mean, it's of the same level as Dick Grayson saying 'That's gotta hurt!' in Batman and Robin, just an absolute Marlon Blando of a line, both used in many bad movies.
The Nolans seemed to have just went for a bland generic line there, they could have tried writing a better reaction. Even a standard 'Oh..my..God..' would've been better I think, they never go out of style. They couldn't have written realisticly though, in real life a SWAT guy would have been cursing and swearing the moment that helicopter went down.
Beleive it or not I have given that line a lot of thought as I hate daft, often used lines popping up in otherwise well scripted movies.

 

[lzzy]

Nicky Katz is a good actor though. Amongst other things he's great in Richard Linklater's 'Suburbia' and his small role in 'Dazed and Confused.' I don't know how that kind of line could have been delivered any better, it's just that he had a bad generic line to deliver there. I mean, it's of the same level as Dick Grayson saying 'That's gotta hurt!' in Batman and Robin, just an absolute Marlon Blando of a line, both used in many bad movies.
The Nolans seemed to have just went for a bland generic line there, they could have tried writing a better reaction. Even a standard 'Oh..my..God..' would've been better I think, they never go out of style. They couldn't have written realisticly though, in real life a SWAT guy would have been cursing and swearing the moment that helicopter went down.
Beleive it or not I have given that line a lot of thought as I hate daft, often used lines popping up in otherwise well scripted movies.

I haven't seen Nicky Katz in any other movie, so it's my ignorance. I just felt that particular line was another attempt at humour, a 'oh noes!' line. You're right, a cuss might've been too far, but a dumbfounded expression or a 'Oh god/christ!' could've passed. (Oh, and I KNEW it was Gordon driving all along )

 

[El Payaso]

Aside from the one-liners, I wonder if the differences between BB and TDK, has something to do with more of David Goyers writing on BB, while Goyers TDK script was re-written by the Nolan brothers.

Oh, I'm sure of that. Goyer needs to stay out of the final script.

 

[cryptic name]

i prefer the atmosphere and focus on Batman in Begins. but the story, character work, and incredible, oppressive sense of impending doom that nolan is able to create make Dar Knight superior to me.

 

[cryptic name]

****ing double post

 

[lzzy]

I too prefer the atmosphere of BB, the gloomy Narrows and Batman crouching on stuff :P Wayne Manor, the Batcave etc. I'm sure Nolan will return to these elements in Batman3.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Begins is Nolans worst. Memento and the Dark Knight are his best but in different aspects. Memento for writing and editing; the Dark Knight for cinematography, scope, and directing.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

So Begins is worse than Insomnia? I don't think so.

I prefer Begins to TDK to be honest. TDK is too much of a chore to get through, I find myself skipping to the Joker scenes when I watch it now. Whereas BB is a more enjoyable watch.

But saying that, technically, TDK is superior.

 

[The Joker]

So Begins is worse than Insomnia? I don't think so.

I agree. Not that Insomnia is bad, but Begins is better. Though maybe being a Bat fan, I'm biased. But I enjoy Begins more.

But TDK is Nolan's best one yet. Structurally, storywise, acting wise, action wise, and villain wise, TDK trumps Begins on all of those counts.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

So Begins is worse than Insomnia? I don't think so.

yes, far worse. Nolan seemed so confused in making Batman Begins. He was fully confident from the first frame with The Dark Knight though.

 

[El Payaso]

Begins is Nolans worst. Memento and the Dark Knight are his best but in different aspects. Memento for writing and editing; the Dark Knight for cinematography, scope, and directing.

From what I've seen of Nolan, his "worst" shouldn't be exactly bad exactly. But the mere dialogues and one-liners put BB down every 10 seconds for me. That alone prevents me from taking it as seriously as the movie clearly wants to be taken. And that alone puts Insomnia on a higher place for me too.

 

[Indrid Cold]

From what I've seen of Nolan, his "worst" shouldn't be exactly bad exactly. But the mere dialogues and one-liners put BB down every 10 seconds for me. That alone prevents me from taking it as seriously as the movie clearly wants to be taken. And that alone puts Insomnia on a higher place for me too.

It's a comic book movie, why so serious? Really though, it's meant to be fun and serious, but not Godfather serious, I mean c'mon!

 

[El Payaso]

It's a comic book movie, why so serious? Really though, it's meant to be fun and serious, but not Godfather serious, I mean c'mon!

Yeah, but TDK had so much better dialogues that it occured to me that a better Batman/comic book movie was possible. And that showed me that I was right about BB; it tried to be serious but things such as some of the dialogues betrayed that purpose. TDK on the other hand was possible to be made Godfather-serious. So I'd keep Jonah Nolan instead of Goyer.

 

[ultrasuperduckman]

Nicky Katt was in Insomnia as well.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

See, I think TDK sacrificed too much of that fun, comic book vibe.

Yea I know it was going for a crime thriller theme...but still, don't completely sacrifice the fun. TDK isn't a "fun" watch. For me anyway. I actually enjoy watching Begins more because yea it's serious, dark and broody, but it still retains that sense of fun and energy.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

See, I think TDK sacrificed too much of that fun, comic book vibe.

I'll never understand this criticism. Have you ever read a contemporary Batman comic ? TDK looks and feels like a contemporary batman comic book come to life.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea...apart from the piss poor fight scenes. The lack of theatricality from Batman. Gotham not really looking like Gotham.

If it wasn't for that chase scene with the semi, TDK would of failed in the action stakes, for me.

 

[El Payaso]

See, I think TDK sacrificed too much of that fun, comic book vibe.

Yea I know it was going for a crime thriller theme...but still, don't completely sacrifice the fun. TDK isn't a "fun" watch. For me anyway. I actually enjoy watching Begins more because yea it's serious, dark and broody, but it still retains that sense of fun and energy.

I guess you missed Joker and all the fun that came with him. Opposite to what the dull Scarecrow brought to BB.

But in general I have the same feeling when comparing both BB and TDK with the Burton's movies. That was both fun and gritty. Not that I want that again, but when I want bat-fun that's still is my main source.

Yea...apart from the piss poor fight scenes.

Which were here and there in Batman Begins to start with.

The lack of theatricality from Batman.

You missed the Hong Kong scene?

If it wasn't for that chase scene with the semi, TDK would of failed in the action stakes, for me.

If it wasn't for the Tumbler chase the same goes for BB, for me.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

The fight scenes in BB were better IMO. Sure the editing was choppier, but it made them look faster and more kinetic. And where he was appearing out of now where and pulling people off into the shadows like in the basement of Arkham and the docks. Hanging upside down and grabbing someone before pulling them up. That's Batman right there. Nothing in TDK came close to that theatricality.

In TDK it just looked soooo staged and static. Like you could tell it was a fake fight.

Like that part in Begins where he takes all those guys out at the docks and you can't really see him, that was bad ass IMO. It was like it was from the POV of one of the guys he was beating up.

The Hong Kong scene was cool to be fair. And I liked the way he disappeared when Lau and co opened fire on him. But again, the actual fight choreography brings that down big time. Looked staged and fake and static. Not what I expect from a comic book movie featuring the best martial artist in the world.

Seriously I can't stress enough how ****e the actual fight scenes in TDK were. It was like watching Power Rangers or something. People falling over before getting hit. Standing around waiting for Batman to hit them. Just meh.

 

[Ipodman]

I actually like Begin's Scarecrow more than TDK's Joker....

 

[Travesty]

Yeah, but TDK had so much better dialogues that it occured to me that a better Batman/comic book movie was possible. And that showed me that I was right about BB; it tried to be serious but things such as some of the dialogues betrayed that purpose.

I thought the dialogue in BB was on par with B89 and Returns. Dismissing BB over some dialogue issues, would probably mean you dismiss B89 and Returns.

Yeah, but TDK had so much better dialogues that it occured to me that a better Batman/comic book movie was possible. And that showed me that I was right about BB; it tried to be serious but things such as some of the dialogues betrayed that purpose. TDK on the other hand was possible to be made Godfather-serious. So I'd keep Jonah Nolan instead of Goyer.

Yeah, but at what expense? Joker was lackluster, and doesn't even feel like The Joker of the comics, Batman wasn't even exciting, and in my opinion, wasn't portrayed properly, while Bales voice didn't help one bit. Gotham looked HORRIBLE, no cave, no mention of Bruce's parents, and Maggie did a worse job playing Rachel, IMO.

The only good things about the movie were Dent/Two-Face and Gordon, which the friggin movie should have been called Gordon and Dents Excellent Adventures. :P

 

[Travesty]

I actually like Begin's Scarecrow more than TDK's Joker....

I actually do by a small margin. I thought both weren't utilized to their fullest, but at least Scarecrow felt more like the character, while Joker felt more like something entirely else.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Gotham not really looking like Gotham.

Yes, every artist draws Gotham the same way. I take it you hate the Gotham in Batman Year One as well ? Which is even " duller " then TDK's Gotham . Or have you never read it ?

I thought the dialogue in BB was on par with B89 and Returns. Dismissing BB over some dialogue issues, would probably mean you dismiss B89 and Returns.

Burton's Batman movies weren't trying to be realistic. So the dialogue fit. It was operatic and grand. Batman Begins was trying to be realistic but failed miserably. The dialogue was embarrasing.


Lastly, I just wanna point out just how much better Iron man is compared to Batman Begins. They both follow the Superman origin formula but Ironmans execution is superior. Iron man accomplished what BB tried to, and that was to establish a credible, realistic world. Iron man did it with natural dialogue, natural conversation that was missing in Watchmen, Batman Begins, and the Dark Knight.

 

[Eldarion]

I think Batman Begins is easier to watch more often. The Dark Knight really is a bit more complicated and exhausting.