Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[Ace of Knaves]

Yes, every artist draws Gotham the same way. I take it you hate the Gotham in Batman Year One as well ? Which is even " duller " then TDK's Gotham . Or have you never read it ?

Err yes I have read it.

Don't try to call my credibility into question when it comes to Batman lore. It makes you sound like a snobby elitist. And that isn't a good thing. "Oh I've read more Batman books than you! That means I have more credibility on the matter!" Errr no, it doesn't. And anyway I've read pretty much all the major Batman books.

I mean it didn't have that Gotham atmosphere. It just looked like Chicago.

In Begins it was obviously still Chicago, but it had that smoggy, gritty feel to it with the seemingly constant rain and what not.

 

[The Joker]

See, I think TDK sacrificed too much of that fun, comic book vibe.

Yea I know it was going for a crime thriller theme...but still, don't completely sacrifice the fun. TDK isn't a "fun" watch. For me anyway. I actually enjoy watching Begins more because yea it's serious, dark and broody, but it still retains that sense of fun and energy.

Couldn't disagree more. I had more fun watching the Joker's scenes alone, than anything in Begins. And I haven't even mentioned all the fantastic Harvey Dent stuff, Jim Gordon's bigger and better role etc.

TDK was much more fun, and was pumping with energy. The screen nearly shaking with energy.

I thought the dialogue in BB was on par with B89 and Returns. Dismissing BB over some dialogue issues, would probably mean you dismiss B89 and Returns.

No way.

B89 and Returns didn't ram the theme of the movie down your throat every 5 minutes. Begins' dialogue was forever ramming the word "fear" down your throat.

It was insulting, as if the audience was failing to grasp what the theme was, so they need constant reminding.

Yeah, but at what expense?

No expense.

TDK trumps Begins in virtually every aspect. The only flaw was that it wasn't as Batman focused as Begins, but that's because Begins was an origin story.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea the Joker scenes were fun...in a morbid kind of way.

But with your talk about Dent and Gordon's scenes I don't think you are talking about fun.

Yea their roles were great...but what's "fun" about them? Nothing really.

See the best Batman moments of the two films for me where when Batman is at the docks and when he was creeping around in the shadows in the Arkham basement. Suddenly popping out, snatching someone and dragging them back off into the shadows whilst the other goons are like "What the **** was that!? Where is he?!" . That's Batman. Nothing in TDK came close to that.

 

[The Joker]

I actually like Begin's Scarecrow more than TDK's Joker....

Can't imagine why.

Begins' Scarecrow was one of the most uninspired villains ever. A guy in a suit with a potato sack on his head, who was nothing without the brief fear gas effects.

And his defeat by Rachel's taser was pathetic and laughable.

 

[The Joker]

Yea the Joker scenes were fun...in a morbid kind of way.

That's the best kind of fun for the Joker.

You're a fan of Azarello's Joker GN, aren't you? That's the most graphic, disgusting interpretation of the Joker. Rape, skinning someone alive etc.

But with your talk about Dent and Gordon's scenes I don't think you are talking about fun.

Yea their roles were great...but what's "fun" about them? Nothing really.

Everything.

Especially when their arcs climaxed together in that brilliant showdown with Gordon's family being taken hostage by Dent.

Exciting, dramatic, chilling, and immense fun to watch. It was also a nod to the ending to Batman: Year One, when Gordon's wife and baby were taken hostage, and the baby was thrown off the bridge, but Batman saved him.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hmmm yea the showdown at the end was brilliant. Very emotional scene.

But I'm talking about the kind of swash buckling fun you should get from a comic book movie about Batman.

Yea sure make it serious and more crime thriller, but don't completely sacrifice that stuff.

I think it's just that I found the action scenes so disappointing apart from a couple parts like HK and the chase.

Sure it shouldn't be all about action, but when I watch a movie about Batman i want to at least see some great fights or moments like the docks and the Arkham basement in BB.

Watching that opening scene i the parking lot now is pretty laughable to be honest. Apart from when the mobsters are like WTF and he first appears, the choreography is just appaling. And too many goofs like The Chechen pulling away, then cutting back to him getting in the car, then pulling away again.

That's being pretty nit picky I know. But TDK shouldn't escape from nit picking. It isn't the be all end all of comic book movies like some like to think.

 

[The Joker]

But I'm talking about the kind of swash buckling fun you should get from a comic book movie about Batman.

Yea sure make it serious and more crime thriller, but don't completely sacrifice that stuff.

I think it's just that I found the action scenes so disappointing apart from a couple parts like HK and the chase.

Sure it shouldn't be all about action, but when I watch a movie about Batman i want to at least see some great fights or moments like the docks and the Arkham basement in BB.

Swashbuckling fun? It was there in spades. I loved the battle in the parking garage with the mobsters, fake Batmen etc. Joker's attack on Bruce Wayne's penthouse, that brilliant Joker truck/armoured car chase sequence etc.

And there was tons of adrenaline rush moments, like the countdown to Harvey and Rachel's doom, intercut with Joker's fab escape from Police HQ, the Mr Reese sequence intercut with the Joker/Two Face confrontation in the hospital climaxing in Joker bombing the hospital etc.

The action sequences blew Begins' ones out of the water. A fight on a monorail? Cop cars chasing the Tumbler? Amateur night in dixie. Though I did love the bats attack on Arkham and the cops. That was fab.

That's being pretty nit picky I know.

Yes, it is

Especially when Begins is guilty as sin of it, too.

 

[Travesty]

See the best Batman moments of the two films for me where when Batman is at the docks and when he was creeping around in the shadows in the Arkham basement. Suddenly popping out, snatching someone and dragging them back off into the shadows whilst the other goons are like "What the **** was that!? Where is he?!" . That's Batman. Nothing in TDK came close to that.

I couldn't agree with you more. There was no real bat-mosphere in the entire movie. Bruce was just whining about he wanted to take off the cape and settle down with Rachel, Joker didn't really feel like Joker to me(Heath played a GOOD villain, but it just didn't have a true Joker vibe), Gotham was just Chicago, and a brightly lit Chicago at that, no Bat-cave, no batarangs, no lurking in the shadows, the score during the movie didn't pump me up or get the mood going at all, etc

The things I liked about it was Hong Kong scene, opening parking lot scene, most of Two-Faces scenes, and the last 30 seconds.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hmmm see, I think the actual fighting in TDK was dog ****. Looked so fake and static. People dropping before even getting hit, standing around visibly waiting for Batman to hit them.

The fights just didn't have that kinetic energy.

In BB they may have been a bit choppy. But the fight at the docks where you can't really see Bats was awesome IMO. It's like the POV of one the guys he is beating up. Really visceral and bone crunching.

Whereas the fights in TDK looked clearly staged.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Batman Begins is a nice starter, but The Dark Knight is the one that truly satisfies. Begins lacks any real threat from a villain, too. Probably my biggest complaint. Scarecrow is weak, Ra's is absent from the bulk of the movie, and Falcone was about as scary as apple pie.

The Dark Knight is the Batman movie that delivers all on fronts.

 

[The Joker]

Hmmm see, I think the actual fighting in TDK was dog ****. Looked so fake and static. People dropping before even getting hit, standing around visibly waiting for Batman to hit them.

The fights just didn't have that kinetic energy.

In BB they may have been a bit choppy. But the fight at the docks where you can't really see Bats was awesome IMO. It's like the POV of one the guys he is beating up. Really visceral and bone crunching.

Whereas the fights in TDK looked clearly staged.

Ehhh no, that's the Begins fight sequences. For example, the docks scene you keep going on about that's you hold in high esteem, we never saw Batman land a blow on anyone, except for Falcone at the end.

It was all shakey camera work, Batman appearing and disappearing, and sweeping cape gestures, with thugs doing random screaming and shouting.

In the TDK fights, we saw Batman actually fight, and land the blows on his opponents. There was some energy and life to them, and you can see what the hell is going on.

 

[Ipodman]

I think it'll be best if someone watches Begins first, then watch TDK. This way, they get the "full story".

 

[blackkeno]

Yea the Joker scenes were fun...in a morbid kind of way.

But with your talk about Dent and Gordon's scenes I don't think you are talking about fun.

Yea their roles were great...but what's "fun" about them? Nothing really.

See the best Batman moments of the two films for me where when Batman is at the docks and when he was creeping around in the shadows in the Arkham basement. Suddenly popping out, snatching someone and dragging them back off into the shadows whilst the other goons are like "What the **** was that!? Where is he?!" . That's Batman. Nothing in TDK came close to that.

I think BB and TDK are the two best comic book based live action movies ever. My personal favorite is BB. I think the two scenes at the docks and the Arkham basement are the best Batman fight scenes ever. The tumbler scenes were awesome. I loved the way they explained so much of batman's equipment. I liked the overall atmosphere of everything from the Temple, to the Narrows, to the Batcave. I thought both Ras and the Scarecrow were brilliant representations. I felt awed, inspired, and great throughout the movie and hoped it wouldn't end.

TDK was awesome too. I loved the Joker and Two face. I thought the HK scene was great. The movie felt heavy though. I didn't leave it feeling great like I did BB.

I watched each movie over 20 times and think BB fares better with multiple viewings too.

 

[returntovoid]

See, I think TDK sacrificed too much of that fun, comic book vibe.

Yea I know it was going for a crime thriller theme...but still, don't completely sacrifice the fun. TDK isn't a "fun" watch. For me anyway. I actually enjoy watching Begins more because yea it's serious, dark and broody, but it still retains that sense of fun and energy.

I agree, I actually like crime thrillers but I missed the more comic book vibe, atmoshphere, iconic scenes, more focus on Batman and hiding in the shadows to strikes fear into the hearts of criminals in Batman Begins.

I think it has something to with David Goyer not writing TDK although he did write the first draft which was re-written by the Nolan brothers and suggested that The Joker should be based off his first two comic book appearances.

David Goyer, is in fact a huge comic book fan.

That's being pretty nit picky I know. But TDK shouldn't escape from nit picking. It isn't the be all end all of comic book movies like some like to think.

Yeah, TDK is vastly overrated due to the hype and Heaths death that most people overlook Batman Begins.

I couldn't agree with you more. There was no real bat-mosphere in the entire movie. Bruce was just whining about he wanted to take off the cape and settle down with Rachel, Joker didn't really feel like Joker to me(Heath played a GOOD villain, but it just didn't have a true Joker vibe), Gotham was just Chicago, and a brightly lit Chicago at that, no Bat-cave, no batarangs, no lurking in the shadows, the score during the movie didn't pump me up or get the mood going at all, etc

I totally agree.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

****

 

[Ace of Knaves]

But TDK is still vastly overrated...

I'll be honest when I first saw TDK I was like "Best comic book movie evah!!!". I was a big defender of it whenever anyone said it was overrated.

But after multiple viewings I have changed my stance. It is overrated. IMO Iron Man is better. I can watch Iron Man over and over again and enjoy myself. TDK...not so much.

And just look at my user name. I'm a massive fan of Batman and Joker and his mythos.

 

[The Joker]

I think it'll be best if someone watches Begins first, then watch TDK. This way, they get the "full story".

Ya think?

But TDK is still vastly overrated...

That's a matter of opinion.

For most people it ranks as the best, and long may it stay that way, because it is the best, IMO. Nolan has big shoes to fill with the third movie.

I don't envy him with that task.

And just look at my user name. I'm a massive fan of Batman and Joker and his mythos.

We all are.

You just have different tastes in what you find entertaining. Really, looking at your complaints, they boil down to what you personally find entertaining. You preferred the horribly choreographed fight scenes, and mediocre action in Begins more.

Then there's the complaint that TDK wasn't as Batman focused as it was in Begins. If that happened, then you'd have a plethora of people *****ing that Joker, Dent, Gordon etc were neglected.

Someone is always going to be dissatisifed. But as far as comic book movies go, the complaints about TDK are kept down to a minimum. And that is miraculous in this day and age.

I wish the X-Men and Spider-Man movies were as well recieved.

 

[Two-Face]

But TDK is still vastly overrated...

I'll be honest when I first saw TDK I was like "Best comic book movie evah!!!". I was a big defender of it whenever anyone said it was overrated.

But after multiple viewings I have changed my stance. It is overrated. IMO Iron Man is better. I can watch Iron Man over and over again and enjoy myself. TDK...not so much.

And just look at my user name. I'm a massive fan of Batman and Joker and his mythos.

Really Ace? I'm disappointed in you.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ya think?



That's a matter of opinion.

For most people it ranks as the best, and long may it stay that way, because it is the best, IMO. Nolan has big shoes to fill with the third movie.

I don't envy him with that task.



We all are.

You just have different tastes in what you find entertaining. Really, looking at your complaints, they boil down to what you personally find entertaining. You preferred the horribly choreographed fight scenes, and mediocre action in Begins more.

Then there's the complaint that TDK wasn't as Batman focused as it was in Begins. If that happened, then you'd have a plethora of people *****ing that Joker, Dent, Gordon etc were neglected.

Someone is always going to be dissatisifed. But as far as comic book movies go, the complaints about TDK are kept down to a minimum. And that is miraculous in this day and age.

I wish the X-Men and Spider-Man movies were as well recieved.

Oh c'mon! Yea maybe the fights in BB were not perfect. But I don't see how ANYONE can defend the fight scenes in TDK. It doesn't come down to opinion.

The fights in TDK were atrocious. People reacting BEFORE they get hit. People standing there WAITING for Batman to hit them. Batmans entire repertoire being punch, elbow, punch, forearm smash, throw over shoulder, elbow, punch...

The fights looked fake, staged, blatantly choreographed. No kinetic energy about them.

And there was no Batman esque scenes where he swoops in from the shadows, grabs someone, then disappears again like there was in Begins. No Batarangs, no flash bangs/smoke bombs.

These are not opinions, these are facts that EVERYONE can see with their own two eyes.

 

[The Joker]

Really Ace? I'm disappointed in you.

Yeah, Iron Man was so generic, and average, and ticked all the cliche boxes. Downey Jr was the only real highlight in it.

Oh c'mon! Yea maybe the fights in BB were not perfect.

Understatement.

But I don't see how ANYONE can defend the fight scenes in TDK. It doesn't come down to opinion.

I've just lost a notch of respect for you, Ace. Of course it's opinion, and the fact you think otherwise makes you extremely ignorant.

The fights in TDK in comparison to Begins were leaps and bounds better. You could see what was going on, you saw Batman actually fight, instead of it looking like someone suffering from vertigo was holding the camera.

The fights looked fake, staged, blatantly choreographed. No kinetic energy about them.

Disagree completely. The fights were alot more vibrant, and brutal.

I particularly love that snapping sound when Batman twists one of Joker's thug's arms. Awesome.

Not to mention the stunt performers and co-ordinators were nominated for some awards, in fact it won the SAG award for it. If they were as bad as you say, they wouldn't have even been a contender. But then you have no room for anyone elses opinion on that score, right

And there was no Batman esque scenes where he swoops in from the shadows, grabs someone, then disappears again like there was in Begins. No Batarangs, no flash bangs/smoke bombs.

So what? The whole point in TDK was that the criminal element was "Wise to Batman's act". They know he's got rules. His terror tactics would have been ineffective, like they were with Maroni.

The attack in Hong Kong, dropping Maroni off the balcony etc were new, different, and not a repeat of what we'd seen him do in the previous movie.

These are not opinions, these are facts that EVERYONE can see with their own two eyes.

Oh dear, I'm going to find it very hard to take anything you say seriously again. Tsk tsk, shame on you, Ace.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Batman Begins is forgotten because it is an inferior film. If it was as good as TDK it would've been remembered like the Terminator.

 

[-Arya-]

Batman Begins is forgotten because it is an inferior film. If it was as good as TDK it would've been remembered like the Terminator.

What?

 

[Two-Face]

Nobody forgot Batman Begins but then I love the both the same.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yeah, Iron Man was so generic, and average, and ticked all the cliche boxes. Downey Jr was the only real highlight in it.



Understatement.



I've just lost a notch of respect for you, Ace. Of course it's opinion, and the fact you think otherwise makes you extremely ignorant.

The fights in TDK in comparison to Begins were leaps and bounds better. You could see what was going on, you saw Batman actually fight, instead of it looking like someone suffering from vertigo was holding the camera.



Disagree completely. The fights were alot more vibrant, and brutal.

I particularly love that snapping sound when Batman twists one of Joker's thug's arms. Awesome.

Not to mention the stunt performers and co-ordinators were nominated for some awards, in fact it won the SAG award for it. If they were as bad as you say, they wouldn't have even been a contender. But then you have no room for anyone elses opinion on that score, right



So what? The whole point in TDK was that the criminal element was "Wise to Batman's act". They know he's got rules. His terror tactics would have been ineffective, like they were with Maroni.

The attack in Hong Kong, dropping Maroni off the balcony etc were new, different, and not a repeat of what we'd seen him do in the previous movie.



Oh dear, I'm going to find it very hard to take anything you say seriously again. Tsk tsk, shame on you, Ace.

So wait, am I imagining things?

I'm imagining seeing goons react BEFORE getting hit? Notice this in the Hong Kong scene especially. Lau actually falls BEFORE getting hit. It is as clear as day, it cannot be denied.

I'm imagining seeing goons standing there WAITING for Batman to hit them?

I'm imagining seeing Batman throw a goons head into another goons gun as it goes off, putting people in grave danger from a ricocheting bullet? Yea that's right, watch the penthouse scene again. Batman pushes a guys head into another guys arm as he fires a shot. Who knows where that bullet went? That IS NOT something Batman would do in a area surrounded by dozens of civilians. That's is a stone wall FACT.

I'm imagining that a world class martial artists entire repertoire is elbow, punch, forearm smash, throw over shoulder? His repertoire was just so boring and static. I don't want to see Batman doing back flips and somersaults. But c'mon, at least have a sense of speed and energy about them.

Brutal? ONLY because of the added sound effects in post production. The fights were not bone crunching or visceral at all.

Well to be fair the fight in the nightclub was cool, but that's because of the lighting and it seemed sped up. But all the other fights were soooooooooooooo fake looking.

And the fights in Begins (especially the fight at the docks) was made to look like you are watching from the POV of one of the goons Batman is beating up. Maybe that's not to your taste. Fair enough. I'm not actually arguing that the fights in BB were better, but just that the fights in TDK were really, really, really, really, disappointing.

I honestly don't know how they got an award for choreography. I've seen better fights on fricking Power Rangers back in the day.

And I didn't mean my opinion is fact. I just meant the first things I mentioned were facts. Like people reacting before getting hit etc. Because those are facts, not opinions.

 

[The Joker]

So wait, am I imagining things?

Never said that. I am not saying the flaws you find with the fights are wrong. Just because I don't see them, or share that opinion, doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means we have different standards.

You said that it was not an opinion you were stating, it was a fact. I hate that attitude. And it's totally unlike you, Ace. Look I'm not going to make a mountain out of this mole hill with you. I like you too much, anyway, for that.

But yes, it's true they did get an SAG award for choreography. Personally I would agree with you that it wasn't really deserved. The fights were not award worthy. But the reason I brought it up is because you were stating an opinion as an absolute fact. Like I said, that's a with me when it comes to stuff like that.

Always respect another opinion, even if you think that person is off their flippin' rocker for thinking it.