Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[mothy]

Both movies give me , but I still re-watch Begins twice as many time compared to whenever I re-watch The Dark Knight.

when the dark knight came out, i basically forgot about batman begins. i was watching the dark knight that much. but, i've started to watch it again lately, and it really is a great film. it truly honours batman.

 

[El Payaso]

Batman Begins was very good. The story and their interpretation of fear was much better than TDK,

I'm sorry but nothing in BB was scarier than Joker in TDK. If anything the word "fear" was said far more often and there was much more 'talking' about it in BB, but as for real exploration/interpretation TDK takes the cookie.

 

[Avengers-Report]

I'm just saying TDK gets too much credit, Begins is right behind it in terms of quality.

 

[returntovoid]

And maybe its because Goyer didnt help write TDK that it was so serious.

That's exactly along the lines of something that I said a couple of pages back on this thread.

Maybe he would have added some "comicbookiness" to TDK if he was on board.

I agree.

It seems Goyer will be on board to write BB3:

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2010/02/0...lan-but-what-about-ghost-rider-and-super-max/

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I absolutely loved parts of Batman Begins: his training sessions with Ra's, his first appearance as Batman, his first confrontation with Ra's as Batman and the very tail end of the fight when he glides off of the train. . . and the very end. Those were the most redeeming parts of this film. They worked through-and-through. Unfortunately as a whole BB is littered with cliches ("ignorance is bliss, my friend" / "so we can pick ourselves back up"), mediocre acting from too many in the cast, distracting oddities (the woman at the party introducing Bruce to decoy Ra's. . . and then awkwardly disappearing), cheesiness that's incongruent with the rest of the film (Falcone's reaction to Scarecrow's fear gas was horrible), and a fixation on pointless details.

Good movie. Far below great.

 

[Door Noob]

Boy, you're picky

 

[El Payaso]

I absolutely loved parts of Batman Begins: his training sessions with Ra's, his first appearance as Batman, his first confrontation with Ra's as Batman and the very tail end of the fight when he glides off of the train. . . and the very end. Those were the most redeeming parts of this film. They worked through-and-through. Unfortunately as a whole BB is littered with cliches ("ignorance is bliss, my friend" / "so we can pick ourselves back up"), mediocre acting from too many in the cast, distracting oddities (the woman at the party introducing Bruce to decoy Ra's. . . and then awkwardly disappearing), cheesiness that's incongruent with the rest of the film (Falcone's reaction to Scarecrow's fear gas was horrible), and a fixation on pointless details.

Good movie. Far below great.

I'd add the Flass interrogation as one of the best scenes, and best scenes in a Batman movie ever (even when Flass was nothing like Flass). But the cheesey one-liners, the hollow speeches and moral lessons ruined the core for me. Even so, you can see that BB was the seed of a new way to make superhero movies that bloomed with TDK.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I believe the Flass interrogation was meant to be mildly comedic. I smiled at it. The cool part was Batman suddenly vanishing when he was finished. Reminded me of BTAS.

 

[Travesty]

I believe the Flass interrogation was meant to be mildly comedic.

 

[El Payaso]

I believe the Flass interrogation was meant to be mildly comedic. I smiled at it.

I smiled at it because it was good to see the corrupt cop sweating bullets.

Mildly or puzzlingly comedic was the ending of the Scarecrow or the Nice Coat line.

The cool part was Batman suddenly vanishing when he was finished. Reminded me of BTAS.

Or Batman 89.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Flass was pretty much pissing his pants and Batman was being so over-the-top.

Or Batman 89.

Agreed, Batman jumping off the roof into nowhere was classic.

 

[returntovoid]

I could go as far as saying that Batman Begins, Batman 89 and Batman Returns are way better than The Dark Knight just because I think those those three had more Batman, felt more like a Batman film, more iconic scenes involving Batman and gave a more intimidating presence to Batman.

IMO, Gotham City should look Gothicly spooky/crime-infested/hell on earth but in The Dark Knight, it at times looked too clean with modernized building as opposed to something more like art deco or just old looking architecture and other times it looked like a depressing film that is Oscar worthy material due to the blue-ish tone.

The Tim Burton films had the perfect Gotham that looked Gothicly spooky/crime-infested/hell on earth, it was like Batman's playground, it complimented the Danny Elfman's musical score perfectly and overall Anton Furst did a great job with the set design.

The Gotham in Batman Begins was not exactly like in the Tim Burton films but I thought it came pretty close, it was not Gothicly spooky but the heavy use of smokey fog/at times heavy rain made it spooky enough, it had a crime-infested/unclean feeling and the buildings looked old enough to be compared similar to the art deco buildings in the Tim Burton films and BTAS.

 

[Brother Jack]

I could go as far as saying that Batman Begins, Batman 89 and Batman Returns are way better than The Dark Knight just because I think those those three had more Batman, felt more like a Batman film, more iconic scenes involving Batman and gave a more intimidating presence to Batman.

Batman and Batman Returns had more Batman in it than TDK? Are you serious? Those films are notorious for focusing too much on the villains and not enough on the hero. Not only that but TDK had more Batman in it than even Batman Begins because most of that movie was on Bruce Wayne (actually, nearly all of it). Not a valid argument.

 

[Travesty]

Batman and Batman Returns had more Batman in it than TDK? Are you serious? Those films are notorious for focusing too much on the villains and not enough on the hero. Not only that but TDK had more Batman in it than even Batman Begins because most of that movie was on Bruce Wayne (actually, nearly all of it). Not a valid argument.

I think he means, when we actually see Batman on screen, his presence is felt more in those movies.

 

[The Joker]

Batman and Batman Returns had more Batman in it than TDK? Are you serious? Those films are notorious for focusing too much on the villains and not enough on the hero. Not only that but TDK had more Batman in it than even Batman Begins because most of that movie was on Bruce Wayne (actually, nearly all of it). Not a valid argument.

Stop making so much sense

 

[elgaz]

Definitely TDK for me.

Batman Begins is a fantastic film, but it's very much an origin story and in some ways it was hampered by that. Time constraints and story constraints were imposed by the sheer fact that they had to explain Batman's origin. Of course, we all know Nolan did this in a great way and set up a great foundation for TDK.

The difference with TDK is that they had the entire length of the film to explore the complex storyline involving Joker and Harvey Dent. The film had a fantastic cast, great performances, plenty of action, plenty of character progression, plenty of gadgets, etc ................... it really is the film that has everything.

I look forward to seeing if Nolan can top it with Batman 3. Traditionally, when it comes to a trilogy of films, the middle film (in this case, TDK) is usually the weakest as it lacks the drama of the introduction or the climatic elements of the end - it's very much filler. However, in the case of the Batman trilogy, TDK may very well end up being the best of them.

 

[Travesty]

Batman and Batman Returns had more Batman in it than TDK? Are you serious? Those films are notorious for focusing too much on the villains and not enough on the hero. Not only that but TDK had more Batman in it than even Batman Begins because most of that movie was on Bruce Wayne (actually, nearly all of it). Not a valid argument.

Stop making so much sense

Well, I've heard this same debate many of times, and quit frankly, I'm curious to see which movie has the most "Bat-time" compared to the other, so we can put this silly debate, that people use as ammo, to rest. Without further ado, the Nolan Vs Burton Bat-screen time:

Now, let me just explain how I did this, and the rules I applied, as one movie(*cough* TDK *cough*)was harder to record then the others. I simply recorded with a stopwatch that I have on my iphone. Anytime Batman had, or shared screen time, then I recorded it. An example would be when Batman and Lucius were talking about the sonar devices, and how it would cut between Lucius and Batman periodically, I kept the clock running, as Batman was apart of the scene, even though we saw more of Lucius. But, if for example(again, from TDK, which is why it was harder to record), we watched the ending Joker battle, and it would continuously go from Batman, to Joker, to Gordon, to Ferry1, to Ferry2, so on a so forth, within a few seconds, I started and stopped ONLY when Batman was on screen, or the person who was involved, was directly involved with Batman. Get it? I'm only recording when 'ol Batsy is on screen, or the person he is with, is involved DIRECTLY with him. I didn't record if Batman was controlling the Batmobile remotely, but I did record if we saw the outside of The Batmobile/Tumbler, while Batman was in it. Again, get it? Just talking about Batman screen time/presence in the movies.

Also, I would like to add, that I made a percentage of screen times. As we should know, most of the movies have a different running time, and it's only fair to add the total Bat-time, and then divide it with the running screentime, to get the percentage of how much Bat-percentage we have per movie. I say this is fair, because there could be a 4 hour long Batman movie, and it could only have 5 extra minutes to the others, but overall, the percentage of screen time would be MUCH lower. Get it? Got it. Good!

Batman '89: total running time of 126 minutes.

-(rooftop scene) 1:33
-(Axis) 3:12
-(Dinner/Batmobile drive to cave) 9:21
-(suit-up/staring at Joker in helicopter) 0:31
-(parade/batwing) 4:01
-(Church/Joker fight) 8:45
-(Ending scene on building) 0:08

Total:26:51 min/126= .210 or 21% of bat screen time


Batman Returns: Total running time of 126 minutes.

-(Batman to the rescue) 2:21
-(Patrolling Gotham in Batmobile) 0:46
-(Batman fights clown gang in streets) 1:42
-(Batman talks to Penguin) 1:31
-(Batman/Catwomen fight) 2:17
-(Suiting-up) 0:17
-(Investigating Ice-Princess) 4:39
-(Batmobile takeover) 3:35
-(Saving 1st born sons) 0:08
-(Infiltrating Penguin's lair) 3:33
-{Max Shrek/Catwomen fight) 3:48

Total:22:37/126= .1775 or 17%-18% of Bat screen time


Batman Begins: Total running time of 140 minutes.

-(Docks) 0:52
-(Monorail station/saving Rachel from thugs) 0:33
-(Perched on skyscraper) 0:15
-(Gordon's porch scene) 0:38
-(Flask interrogation scene) 0:47
-(Narrows/Apartment investigation) 3:01
-(Arkham) 4:16
-(Tumbler/Batcave scene) 6:07
-(Narrows feargas/destruction scene) 6:19
-(Ending rooftop scene) 1:26

Total: 22:54/140= .161 or 16% of Bat screen time


The Dark Knight: Total running time of 152 minutes.

-(Opening/BB-suit scene) 1:14
-(Bank vault) 0:36
-(Rooftop meeting) 0:50
-(Hong Kong) 2:15
-(Dinner Party) 1:17
-(Crime scene) 0:50
-(Gordon's porch) 0:04
-(Night club) 1:19
-(Thomas Shift scene) 0:46
-(Tumbler) 3:40
-(Joker interrogation) 3:31
-(Saving Dent from building) 0:45
-(Rubble/Hospital scenes) 0:14
-(Batman and Lucius scene) 1:08
-(Locating Joker/Building scene) 4:57
-(Two-face/ending) 4:10

Total: 24:56/152= .161 or 16% of Bat screen time



So after timing everything, I have found that TDK and BB share the EXACT same Bat-screen time of 16%, while Returns is at 17-18%, and B89 tops out at 21%. Who's the king? B89!

 

[redfirebird2008]

The best aspect of Batman Begins is when he's not even Batman yet. How much of that first hour features Bruce Wayne? Most of it...hell, practically all of it. A more relevant comparison would be total screentime for Bruce/Batman. Bruce is every bit as important as Batman, at least for me.

 

[Travesty]

The best aspect of Batman Begins is when he's not even Batman yet. How much of that first hour features Bruce Wayne? Most of it...hell, practically all of it. A more relevant comparison would be total screentime for Bruce/Batman. Bruce is every bit as important as Batman, at least for me.

Oh yeah, this screen time had NOTHIGN to do with Bruce Wayne, or when Bruce was doing detective work. Just Batsy! When Bruce was working on The Batmobile in Returns, I didn't record, or when he was framing Penguin in the Bat-cave, I didn't record, ONLY when he was full frontal Batman. And if that was the case, then Begins would win in a LAND SLIDE.

Well, I just put in some hours into this, and it's already getting dismissed.

Oh well, I tried....

 

[redfirebird2008]

Oh yeah, this screen time had NOTHIGN to do with Bruce Wayne, or when Bruce was doing detective work. Just Batsy! When Bruce was working on The Batmobile in Returns, I didn't record, or when he was framing Penguin in the Bat-cave, I didn't record, ONLY when he was full frontal Batman. And if that was the case, then Begins would win in a LAND SLIDE.

Well, I just put in some hours into this, and it's already getting dismissed.

Oh well, I tried....

I'm not outright dismissing it. Just saying that it's a bit misleading. I do appreciate the effort. I liked your comment on how tough it was to time TDK's moments. The editing was insane on that movie. Lots of quick back and forth shots from one scene to another (usually while they're going on at the same time). It seems like Nolan let things play out more with BB than he did with TDK. Interrogation scene in TDK is amazing but it could have been 5-10 minutes longer. Hell, it probably SHOULD have been.

 

[onDgrind]

BB all the way for me. I could watch BB over and over again, but not TDK. They both good movies, but BB is my favourite.

 

[lzzy]

Oh yeah, this screen time had NOTHIGN to do with Bruce Wayne, or when Bruce was doing detective work. Just Batsy! When Bruce was working on The Batmobile in Returns, I didn't record, or when he was framing Penguin in the Bat-cave, I didn't record, ONLY when he was full frontal Batman. And if that was the case, then Begins would win in a LAND SLIDE.

Well, I just put in some hours into this, and it's already getting dismissed.

Oh well, I tried....

I appreciate the effort, it was interesting to see, thanks man

 

[david icke]

I'm not outright dismissing it. Just saying that it's a bit misleading. I do appreciate the effort. I liked your comment on how tough it was to time TDK's moments. The editing was insane on that movie. Lots of quick back and forth shots from one scene to another (usually while they're going on at the same time). It seems like Nolan let things play out more with BB than he did with TDK. Interrogation scene in TDK is amazing but it could have been 5-10 minutes longer. Hell, it probably SHOULD have been.

No, the interrogation scene was *tight*, it was perfect as it was, if it had went on any longer Batman and the Joker would have been breaking out a deck of cards.
It had go from calm to storm in that time frame, if it had been left to explode any longer, the impact would have been less, same deal if the storm had gone on any longer between them. It was one of those truly perfect moments in cinema, like the Joe Pesci 'You think I'm a funny guy?' scene,, any more, any less, and it would not have been so perfect, that is of course why it is perfect, and why the word perfect is perfect for this perfect scene, as you can see, something can go on far too long and suffer from overuse and is no longer...trying to think of a word for something that could not be better...ah yes, the betterest.

 

[Brother Jack]

I agree, the interrogation scene is perfect the way it is. The genius of it is how it condenses so many elements, themes, and character pathos into one relatively small package. And besides, compared to most scenes in the movie it's actually fairly long.

 

[Green Ghoul]

I just watched both back to back for the first time yesterday. I can't really say I like one over the other. Both were great films. Batman's origin in Begins was epic as far as I'm concerned. TDK on the other hand had a better villain and seemed more tragic.