The Dark Knight Who won?

[Closerframe]

Joker won, he proved that Gotham's White Knight could be corruptible. That was one of the twist at the end that all these things the Joker had been doing were just small games to get to the real target Harvey Dent.

Why Joker Won
-Killed Batman and Harvey's Love
-Played everyone for fools
-Turned Harvey against Batman and Gordan
-Basically forced Batman to become an even more outcast than he already was
-Made Gotham go crazy, trying to kill one man

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

The fans won, I'd say.

 

[Anita18]

Without the cover up Joker wins for ruining the reputation of Harvey Dent and the possibility of Batman breaking his one rule by killing him.

With the cover up, Joker still wins because now Batman is seen by the public as someone who broke his one rule.

The general public doesn't know Batman has the "no murder" rule. Gordon knows it, and the Joker knows it, but it's not a sure thing with regular citizens. As far as they know, Batman is perfectly capable of killing someone. He just hasn't done it yet.

The very fact that Batman and Gordon feel the need to cover up what Harvey did means that the Joker won, because his main goal was to prove he could break Dent.

 

[Anita18]

The fans won, I'd say.

Nolan and the studios won, too.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Everybody won I feel except for poor Heath.....

 

[Anita18]

Everybody won I feel except for poor Heath.....

Well, he did win in that he left this fantastic performance to cinematic posterity, and it's the best swan song any actor could hope for.

But yeah, I know what you mean.

Katie Holmes definitely lost, though.

 

[Ziggyman]

Well, he did win in that he left this fantastic performance to cinematic posterity, and it's the best swan song any actor could hope for.

But yeah, I know what you mean.

Katie Holmes definitely lost, though.

...I'm glad she did...t:

 

[jackjack924]

Katie Holmes definitely lost, though.

Yeaaaaaaaaah decline TDK for Mad Money...

epic fail.

 

[DACrowe]

The war is stalemated. Batman won the physical battle, but Joker won the philosophical debate he had with Batman by turning Harvey. Batman had to cover it up, because Joker won, but he still lost because Batman hid it.

 

[Jokerluv]

Batman won as he never broke the whole "no killing" rule.
Besides, for The Joker to "win" wouldn't he have to have a well defined plan? It seemed like he kept changing his mind. Kill Batman, he must take off his mask, I have no plan, I want to make Harvey insane, I want to show that people can be lowered to my level.
You can't win if you haven't got a goal.

Those were all games the Joker is notorious for playing. The only two people he was brutally honest with were Batman and Dent. He said in the hospital that he's not a schemer, he shows the schemers how pathetic their attempts are at trying to control their little worlds.

However, technically, yes he is a schemer because he planned on breaking Dent, but that was his one and only plan, to have Harvey fall. That's it, plain and simple.

 

[Eggyman]

Yeah. Poor Gordon, knowing he had a role in Dent's fall. You can tell he starts to realize how serious it is when Joker talks with him in the interrogation room. ("Who did YOU leave him with? Hmmm? YOUR men? Assuming that they are still your men, and not...Maroni's. Does it depress you, how alone you really are?")

Gordon did come away the most unscathed out of the three, though. I think that had a point - Dent was in the public spotlight the most, which is why Joker targeted him in particular. Batman was next, since his very existence is controversial. Gordon is just the guy in the background trying to do what's right.

Joker lost some battles (namely the ferry experiment), but I think he did win in the end, even if Batman and Gordon are trying to cover it up.

That's exactly what's happening

It wasn't very subtle either. They are covering up what happened - their loss - to save Gotham's spirit. The Joker was the orchestrator of pretty much all of it.

He had an ace in the hole

 

[wootbaby]

Joker won the battle. Batman won the war.

Joker did win small victories but his ultimate goal like Ra's, is to tear the city apart. Batman prevented Joker from doing that. So ultimately Batman won what actually matters, albeit with considerable loss. It's akin to saying, who won? Ra's or Batman? Ra's goal was to have Gotham tear itself apart... he DID succeed in part because the Narrows (which is defined as part of Gotham) did tear itself apart... but that wasn't Ra's major goal... just like turning Dent is a partial win for Joker but means **** if the city doesn't buy into it

Even in the ferries Joker wins the battle but loses the war. Even in the real world, given the choice there will be SOME people who say push the button. Joker's plan isnt for some of the people to agree to blow em up, or even the majority. His plan has to end with the buttons being pushed, people blowing up, and the good people of gotham having to live with the fact that their best people turned into murderers. It's not good enough for some people to turn evil, or even for Joker to be right about them... those ferries have to blow up or he loses. same thing with dent. some moral victory or I told you so means nothing in the end. as he tells batman, turning Dent was "easy." Dent is a pawn, a means to an end. he is not joker's ultimate plan, it has to end with the people of gotham in despair and Dent's image in shambles. NONE of that happened so he loses.

In a way Joker's winning the battles shows that he is the ultimate antagonist for the Batman, but also that he at the same time, ultimately inferior to Batman. Joker is arguably smarter, more insightful, maybe even understands the people Batman is trying to save than Batman himself. But in the end he will come up short to the Batman

Nolan purposefully plants this question in our minds... it shows there are no complete victories for Batman. and that makes him an even greater hero... he must walk that fine line but he never wavers and never crosses it. the fact that Batman can at the end of the movie do what lesser men would not be able to do... and something Joker could never anticipated paints Batman a greater hero than he ever was in complete victories in the Burton movies. the greatest twist of the entire movie is at the end when Batman singlehandedly turns utter defeat into a dark victory

 

[Anita18]

Joker won the battle. Batman won the war.

Joker did win small victories but his ultimate goal like Ra's, is to tear the city apart. Batman prevented Joker from doing that. So ultimately Batman won what actually matters, albeit with considerable loss. It's akin to saying, who won? Ra's or Batman? Ra's goal was to have Gotham tear itself apart... he DID succeed in part because the Narrows (which is defined as part of Gotham) did tear itself apart... but that wasn't Ra's major goal... just like turning Dent is a partial win for Joker but means **** if the city doesn't buy into it

Even in the ferries Joker wins the battle but loses the war. Even in the real world, given the choice there will be SOME people who say push the button. Joker's plan isnt for some of the people to agree to blow em up, or even the majority. His plan has to end with the buttons being pushed, people blowing up, and the good people of gotham having to live with the fact that their best people turned into murderers. It's not good enough for some people to turn evil, or even for Joker to be right about them... those ferries have to blow up or he loses. same thing with dent. some moral victory or I told you so means nothing in the end. as he tells batman, turning Dent was "easy." Dent is a pawn, a means to an end. he is not joker's ultimate plan, it has to end with the people of gotham in despair and Dent's image in shambles. NONE of that happened so he loses.

In a way Joker's winning the battles shows that he is the ultimate antagonist for the Batman, but also that he at the same time, ultimately inferior to Batman. Joker is arguably smarter, more insightful, maybe even understands the people Batman is trying to save than Batman himself. But in the end he will come up short to the Batman

Nolan purposefully plants this question in our minds... it shows there are no complete victories for Batman. and that makes him an even greater hero... he must walk that fine line but he never wavers and never crosses it. the fact that Batman can at the end of the movie do what lesser men would not be able to do... and something Joker could never anticipated paints Batman a greater hero than he ever was in complete victories in the Burton movies. the greatest twist of the entire movie is at the end when Batman singlehandedly turns utter defeat into a dark victory

Hmm, you do have really good points there.

It's a stalemate! As it should be. t:

 

[Eggyman]

Hmm, you do have really good points there.

It's a stalemate! As it should be. t:

Yeh, that's what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immoveable object

 

[The Batman]

Joker won the battle. Batman won the war.

Joker did win small victories but his ultimate goal like Ra's, is to tear the city apart. Batman prevented Joker from doing that. So ultimately Batman won what actually matters, albeit with considerable loss. It's akin to saying, who won? Ra's or Batman? Ra's goal was to have Gotham tear itself apart... he DID succeed in part because the Narrows (which is defined as part of Gotham) did tear itself apart... but that wasn't Ra's major goal... just like turning Dent is a partial win for Joker but means **** if the city doesn't buy into it

Even in the ferries Joker wins the battle but loses the war. Even in the real world, given the choice there will be SOME people who say push the button. Joker's plan isnt for some of the people to agree to blow em up, or even the majority. His plan has to end with the buttons being pushed, people blowing up, and the good people of gotham having to live with the fact that their best people turned into murderers. It's not good enough for some people to turn evil, or even for Joker to be right about them... those ferries have to blow up or he loses. same thing with dent. some moral victory or I told you so means nothing in the end. as he tells batman, turning Dent was "easy." Dent is a pawn, a means to an end. he is not joker's ultimate plan, it has to end with the people of gotham in despair and Dent's image in shambles. NONE of that happened so he loses.

In a way Joker's winning the battles shows that he is the ultimate antagonist for the Batman, but also that he at the same time, ultimately inferior to Batman. Joker is arguably smarter, more insightful, maybe even understands the people Batman is trying to save than Batman himself. But in the end he will come up short to the Batman

Nolan purposefully plants this question in our minds... it shows there are no complete victories for Batman. and that makes him an even greater hero... he must walk that fine line but he never wavers and never crosses it. the fact that Batman can at the end of the movie do what lesser men would not be able to do... and something Joker could never anticipated paints Batman a greater hero than he ever was in complete victories in the Burton movies. the greatest twist of the entire movie is at the end when Batman singlehandedly turns utter defeat into a dark victory

Agreed...I disagree with the idea that jokers main plan was harvey...his overall goal was to corrupt gotham, and as seen in the film, he went about it a many different ways. Manipulating Dent was just another opportunity...just like the ferries, just like getting the public to try and kill reese, just like demanding batman turn himself in so that the city could hate one of the few men holding gotham back from destruction

 

[Carnotaur3]

Batman won in a personal way in that he:

1. Didn't break his rule.
2. Took the fall for Dent, which completed his arc to becoming an actual hero and not just a vigilante. And it matters not that everyone hates him for it.

But I don't look at it in that, who actually won. It's just good enough that Joker lost. He only suceeded with Dent. But his main experiment was showing "Everyone was just like" him. And it failed. He wanted it to happen to:

1. Dampen the spirits of Gotham in showing their true colors.
2. Prove to Batman his crusade is a whole big JOKE.

Thank God Joker lost, because if he had won Batman would be no more.

 

[Harrygucha]

GUYS!! GIRLS!!! Grab your friends, family, pets, etc. AND GO SEE TDK TONIGHT!!!! According to Box Office Estimates, TDK just barely edged out The Mummy. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/ See TDK tonight with a bunch of people to secure the win! "I'm counting on it."

 

[Dr. Crane]

as of now... stalemate..

and as long as Gordon and Batman are able to cover up the true fall of Harvey.. and Gotham continues to think that Harvey was killed by the Joker in the Hospital's explosion.. Batman can win with redemption in the next film...

the only thing is... the games not over for the joker either... the public finding out about Two-Face would be a big blow to the city of Gotham.. seeing that their "white knight" actually became corrupted.. that hope that Gordon and Batman are trying to uphold could be lost...

 

[Malone]

I think we'll have to wait for the third movie to know for sure...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i still think the fact that batman now is thought of as even worse than before is a win for the joker. yea most people of gotham were calling for batmans head anyway, but think of all the people who truly had faith in batman, now that is destroyed by the fact that he has had to take the fall for dent. so joker has made batman into a baddie at least in the eyes of everyone except for the few people that know the truth.

 

[Afternoon]

I think for the Joker himself the most important thing was to break Batman, as to make him break his one rule. He is basicly cheering everytime when it seems that Batman is about to kill him and is honestly disappointed when he does not so.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea joker wouldnt mind death as long as it was Batman, Harvey or Gordon who do the deed.

 

[ct joker]

joker wins. he has gotham hating batman and thats why he is now on the run. dent couldve died a hero (in the warehouse) but batman saved him...and in doing that dent saw himself become the villian. with a lil push from the joker...but the joker got to even the most level headed and public servent do gooder in dent. dent killed all those people and batman only killed him...batman had to break his one rule..joker knew he would have no choice but to break it when he knew he would tell dent how gordon and the police were schemers you saw it in his face in the bed..that the joker was right about everything he was saying..thats why he did just kill joker coin flip or not..even though he was disfigued from the jokers actions dent was more hell bent on killing people who were wrong in his eyes. the third film should be interesting to see how the batman on the run thing works out....im sure some villain will present themselves and the public will cry for batman to come back...and im sure he will be back at wayne manor it should be rebulit by then...and he will be in his reinforced south side... and most likely the riddler will spill the beans via riddles to gotham about what dent really did and what the real truth was...thus prob turning gotham against gordon

 

[Fenrir]

Did anyone notice the connection between these lines?

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now"

"Don't talk like you're one of them, you're not. To them you're just a freak, like me, they need you now but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper"

"Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast. He can make the choices no one else could make. The right choice."

The ending is essentially a culmination of what both Alfred and The Joker said in the film. Batman made himself an outcast by choosing to take the blame for Harvey's crimes. He made the right choice by keeping the ray of hope alive for Gotham's citizens by giving them a martyr they can look up to, who would continue to inspire people to legally fight against crime and corruption in Gotham. Not to mention it would keep all the criminals Harvey prosecuted safely locked up, who would have otherwise walked away on the basis of the crimes Dent committed.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Did anyone notice the connection between these lines?

"Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now"

"Don't talk like you're one of them, you're not. To them you're just a freak, like me, they need you now but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper"

"Endure, Master Wayne. Take it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast. He can make the choices no one else could make. The right choice."

The ending is essentially a culmination of what both Alfred and The Joker said in the film. Batman made himself an outcast by choosing to take the blame for Harvey's crimes. He made the right choice by keeping the ray of hope alive for Gotham's citizens by giving them a martyr they can look up to, who would continue to inspire people to legally fight against crime and corruption in Gotham. Not to mention it would keep all the criminals Harvey prosecuted safely locked up, who would have otherwise walked away on the basis of the crimes Dent committed.

I think it proves Joker was right all along, Batman is being cast out "like a leper". I noticed in the interrogation room Batmans slowly coming to the realisation that Joker is right, you can see the rage slowly building on his face.