The Dark Knight Anybody think Joker vs Batman was a little one sided?

[metalhead_dave]

If it has been done before, please move this into the said existing thread...

But anybody think that the Joker was pretty much dominating the whole ongoing struggle between himself and Batman? I know Batman was able to stop him from killing Dent during the chase and save Racheal the first time. And I guess Batman's idealogy won out over Joker's when it came to the boats... but there was never actually a scene where he owned the Joker.

During the interagation scene, it was all Joker. Batman didn't get any good verbal jabs in that exchange. And when Batman tried to find the Joker using the fingerprint, it still was in vein because Joker caused enough chaos and "killed" Gordon.

It just felt like he was totally out done by Mr J. He could really beat the Joker at anything. Which is fine I guess because with a character like the Joker he can't be beaten, only stopped. But I kind of wish there was just once where Batman could have turned the tables on the Joker.

At least he got the Joker to admit he was incorruptable.

Anybody else feel this way?

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

If it has been done before, please move this into the said existing thread...

But anybody think that the Joker was pretty much dominating the whole ongoing struggle between himself and Batman? I know Batman was able to stop him from killing Dent during the chase and save Racheal the first time. And I guess Batman's idealogy won out over Joker's when it came to the boats... but there was never actually a scene where he owned the Joker.

During the interagation scene, it was all Joker. Batman didn't get any good verbal jabs in that exchange. And when Batman tried to find the Joker using the fingerprint, it still was in vein because Joker caused enough chaos and "killed" Gordon.

It just felt like he was totally out done by Mr J. He could really beat the Joker at anything. Which is fine I guess because with a character like the Joker he can't be beaten, only stopped. But I kind of wish there was just once where Batman could have turned the tables on the Joker.

At least he got the Joker to admit he was incorruptable.

Anybody else feel this way?

A bit. But maybe it was supposed to go this way. Remember Joker was supposed to come back in 3. Maybe in 3, we were supposed to get something like what you're describing. I'm predicting that BB3 have a much more aggressive and smarter Batman than even in TDK, and he was pretty damn smart and aggressive here.

 

[Ziggyman]

The Joker owned because Batman was chasing...Batman arguably never caught The Joker...Possibly the sonar scene but besides that...The Joker caught Batman, and kept him on a pretty long leash...

Batman's thinking is quite linear...The Joker on the other hand is all over the place...How can you catch a person like that without becoming him...That is why Batman couldn't own at anything, he didn't want to go to his level...

 

[MrWayne]

yea even Bruce said that he knows what he would have to become to stop a man like that..
but heres the funny thing.. had it been the other way around ppl would be thinking Joker didnt get enough play time lol and everyone wants to see the villain... plus maybe with Ledgers death they gave him more screen time... time will tell... lets let TDK calm down a bit.. which wont b happening anytime soon lol

 

[The Joker]

But I kind of wish there was just once where Batman could have turned the tables on the Joker.

I thought flipping Joker's truck over was pretty good pwnage

But I think the whole point of the Joker was to see how Batman would endure the escalation of Gotham's crime. To face a foe who doesn't have any rules.

You are right, though. Joker was one step ahead of Batman and everyone else all the time.

 

[Ziggyman]

A bit. But maybe it was supposed to go this way. Remember Joker was supposed to come back in 3. Maybe in 3, we were supposed to get something like what you're describing. I'm predicting that BB3 have a much more aggressive and smarter Batman than even in TDK, and he was pretty damn smart and aggressive here.

That is a possibility, especially with The Riddler...

...With The Riddler...Batman is forced to quit thinking so linear and tries to out-smart The Riddler...That's how you have to chase him...Because The Riddler's way of thinking is one-dimensional...

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

That is a possibility, especially with The Riddler...

...With The Riddler...Batman is forced to quit thinking so linear and tries to out-smart The Riddler...That's how you have to chase him...Because The Riddler's way of thinking is one-dimensional...

Exactly. Joker never had plans, well according to him, while Riddler always has this singular existance to make people solve riddles.

 

[Ziggyman]

I thought flipping Joker's truck over was pretty good pwnage

But I think the whole point of the Joker was to see how Batman would endure the escalation of Gotham's crime. To face a foe who doesn't have any rules.

You are right, though. Joker was one step ahead of Batman and everyone else all the time.

Very true...A foe who couldn't be anymore like Batman while being quite the opposite at the very same time...If that makes any sense...

 

[metalhead_dave]

I thought flipping Joker's truck over was pretty good pwnage

But I think the whole point of the Joker was to see how Batman would endure the escalation of Gotham's crime. To face a foe who doesn't have any rules.

You are right, though. Joker was one step ahead of Batman and everyone else all the time.

That's true, he did do some good physical damage. Flipped the truck, used his gauntlet razors, socked the Joker while he was terrorizing Rachael.

I guess that's really the only kind of victories Batman can have on a character like the Joker... it's a little more like the comics then I thought. You can't actually beat him, only stop him. And kick his ass a little bit.

 

[El Payaso]

If it has been done before, please move this into the said existing thread...

But anybody think that the Joker was pretty much dominating the whole ongoing struggle between himself and Batman? I know Batman was able to stop him from killing Dent during the chase and save Racheal the first time. And I guess Batman's idealogy won out over Joker's when it came to the boats... but there was never actually a scene where he owned the Joker.

During the interagation scene, it was all Joker. Batman didn't get any good verbal jabs in that exchange. And when Batman tried to find the Joker using the fingerprint, it still was in vein because Joker caused enough chaos and "killed" Gordon.

It just felt like he was totally out done by Mr J. He could really beat the Joker at anything. Which is fine I guess because with a character like the Joker he can't be beaten, only stopped. But I kind of wish there was just once where Batman could have turned the tables on the Joker.

At least he got the Joker to admit he was incorruptable.

Anybody else feel this way?

Oh yes.

It was Nicholson's curse.

No, but seriously... oh yes.

Joker owned big time. But Jonah and Chris Nolan made a brilliant job presenting both sides of the fight. Simply brilliant. The moment I heard Joker's arguments I was agreeing withn him. Then Batman's argument were as convincing as Joker's. I just hate when the writers go all one-sided and one-dimentional presenting one of the postures as inherently "wrong." The only objectable thing that nevertheless I understood totally to be necessary was the passengers not being able to blow up the other boat. In real life, that would have happened. But it was nevertheless convincing and making a point.

But in the end Joker's posture convinced me more. Not only he had a better understanding of human nature, but in the end Batman was forced to lie. For me if you have to lie to make a point defending your posture, then it means that your posture is built on air, that have no real grounds.

Joker won, but Batman was unable to deal with it.

I thought flipping Joker's truck over was pretty good pwnage

But since Joker wanted to be arrested and as a result he created Two-Face (corruting Dent) and killed Rachel, Joker pretty much pwned back bigger time.

Exactly. Joker never had plans, well according to him,

Yeah, ********, Mister Joker. I don't plan my pants. If you go with the boats thing you had to be doing a little planning for a couple of hours first.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

If it has been done before, please move this into the said existing thread...

But anybody think that the Joker was pretty much dominating the whole ongoing struggle between himself and Batman? I know Batman was able to stop him from killing Dent during the chase and save Racheal the first time. And I guess Batman's idealogy won out over Joker's when it came to the boats... but there was never actually a scene where he owned the Joker.

During the interagation scene, it was all Joker. Batman didn't get any good verbal jabs in that exchange. And when Batman tried to find the Joker using the fingerprint, it still was in vein because Joker caused enough chaos and "killed" Gordon.

It just felt like he was totally out done by Mr J. He could really beat the Joker at anything. Which is fine I guess because with a character like the Joker he can't be beaten, only stopped. But I kind of wish there was just once where Batman could have turned the tables on the Joker.

At least he got the Joker to admit he was incorruptable.

Anybody else feel this way?

He told the Joker he had failed, people were still ready to believe in good, not everyone was as ugly as he was, and then shot blades at his face in response to his "scars" query after delivering a witty one liner.

He then proceeded to throw him off a building.

Even though the Joker technically wins..I got a huge sense of pwnage during that scene.

I got the sense that Joker was finished ..even with the Harvey Dent issue after..that was just the end of what the Joker had put into motion..the Joker was pretty much stopped and shown that not everyone was a primal psychopath.

 

[MrWayne]

i just loved how Joker laughed all the way down when Bats throw him over.. totally bad ass... not even afraid of plumetting to his death... how gangsta is that??

 

[El Payaso]

He told the Joker he had failed, people were still ready to believe in good, not everyone was as ugly as he was, and then shot blades at his face in response to his "scars" query after delivering a witty one liner.

He then proceeded to throw him off a building.

Even though the Joker technically wins..I got a huge sense of pwnage during that scene.

It was pwnage. But again just temporary. In the end the final triumph was all Joker. Right in the next scene.

I got the sense that Joker was finished ..even with the Harvey Dent issue after..that was just the end of what the Joker had put into motion..

Exactly. that's why Joker got the last laugh.

the Joker was pretty much stopped and shown that not everyone was a primal psychopath.

Joker didn't need everyone to be a psychopath. Batman, for example. Joker is just happy someone is like Batman.

And yes, he was stopped. But he had been stopped before. Thing is he can be stopped... but defeated?

 

[Deadshot59]

I really just saw it as Batman not knowing how to deal with Joker at all yet...


Through Bruces "criminals aren't complicated" line, you pretty much know that he has no idea what he's dealing with.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

It was pwnage. But again just temporary. In the end the final triumph was all Joker. Right in the next scene.



Exactly. that's why Joker got the last laugh.



Joker didn't need everyone to be a psychopath. Batman, for example. Joker is just happy someone is like Batman.

And yes, he was stopped. But he had been stopped before. Thing is he can be stopped... but defeated?

I agree with your points..yah the Joker won..I was just saying..there was a sense of Joker being owned in their last confrontation..but you cannot defeat Joker ultimately because all he is doing is peeling back the layers of human nature..he's ultimately right. In a sense the fact that Batman was "incorruptable" made the Joker happy that someone could be so far ahead of human nature, much like the Joker himself..he recognized them as opposing equals.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Batman seems alittle flat in the movie. The suit anoyed me as well along with him hanging around the police station and no longer being like a scary entity or a ninja using fear.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

I dont know..I see that as Batman recognizing that Gotham is facing a true psychopathic threat..he chooses to help and risk becoming vigilantic as opposed to the symbolic idea of Batman in BB in order to truly rid Gotham of the Joker.

It was one of the films main themes.

a little off topic btw.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

The Joker had the upper hand most of the film.

 

[.:TheDarkKnight]

... and no longer being like a scary entity or a ninja using fear.

Oh right, I forgot he didn't fly into a skyscraper, bust a couple people in the face, sneak around behind the rest, drop them in seconds, then make an escape by shooting up into thin air.


And although he can't really scare the Joker, he hid behind him the entire time in the interrogation room.

 

[Cunning Stunts]

I thought it was supposed to go this way, for a number of reasons:

1. It showed The Joker's power over chaos.

2. And then showed the power of chaos over the minds of people.

3. It was all built up to the point where numerous people had to die and Harvey Dent would be scarred. Not only that, but he attacked Batman's/Bruce's heart as well- Rachel.

4. Which brought around the ending conflict- who would be blamed for the murders, Dent or Batman?

5. Probably the most important, it had to show how parallel Joker and Batman are, but that, in the end, Batman could not only outdo The Joker, but himself as well... As he had given up the mantle of Batman, pushed himself past the loss of Rachel, and was attacked relentlessly by The Joker and his crew, yet he managed to bring himself around and defeat The Joker at the last possible second.

 

[TheDreamMaster]

I dunno, I think Batman cutting him off, quite literally, with the razors during the ending scar scene was a good jab. Not a joke of course, but damn good anyway.

 

[Juha]

As a whole, I was dissappointed with the way they handled the entire Batman/Joker relationship. It didn't feel as iconic and as personal as I had hoped.

I felt that Batman lost his cool too easily in the interrogation scene. I mean he is suppose to be this brilliant man but still he had nothing against The Joker when it came to mind games. He just came off as this violent idiot and really gave The Joker the upperhand.

But I do think that they handled the final fight pretty nicely although the entire thing with the cell phones and sonar flashes wasn't cool at all. But Batman clearly got the upperhand when he said that not everyone are as ugly as The Joker. I really liked that lline. There was this brief moment when The Joker realized that he had failed and Batman had won. And obviously when Batman didn't allow The Joker to die. That sealed the deal. Although the speech The Joker gave when Batman pulled him up...that felt forced and just iffy. But that pretty much sums the whole movie up for me. There were all these brilliant moments but there were also all these "meh" moments and even bad moments. I felt the movie was extremely uneven and I most definitely prefer Batman Begins.

 

[MessyPandas]

I think this was done deliberately to show, in a way, how amateurish Batman was whilst competing in Jokers league. One of the heavy themes in this film was showing that Batman was useless against a criminal with no discernable weaknesses, weaknesses (like fear) he could exploit.

For example during the movie Bruce discovers the flat on Randolph street he truly believes himself to have the upper hand. But this was a trap, Joker predicted he would track him down and set the events (the timer and the scope) that would kill him. We have to remember that this is Batmans first exposure to such an unpredictable threat, it would be some time before he could turn the tables.

 

[November Rain]

Bats was completely overwhelmed with the joker.

Even the boat scenario was ultimately the people of gotham winning over the joker and not bats.

He was completely out of his depth and taking the fall for dent was purely damage limitation at best.

They were by no means equals and opposites...not yet

 

[chamber-music]

I think people are forgetting this is still Batman early in his career. I'm not entirely sure how long the timeline is between Bruce becoming Batman and the events of TDK but I 'm guessing its no more than 2 years tops.

This is still rookie Batman and his gonna make mistakes.