The Dark Knight Anybody think Joker vs Batman was a little one sided?

[Goodfellas]

Physically Batman was beating on the Joker pretty bad i think

First time he came out of nowere and hit Joker so hard he flew back and than he hit joker lke once or twice again in the stomach

And in the interagation scene i mean Batma was punching him and slammed his head against the window and againts the table...Its just Joker was never bleeding so it didnt show

And at the end Batman got screwed over by that sonar because it went all crazy and he couldnt see ****

I dont know i dont think Batman got beatn by Joker at all

 

[Doc Samson]

I think people are forgetting this is still Batman early in his career. I'm not entirely sure how long the timeline is between Bruce becoming Batman and the events of TDK but I 'm guessing its no more than 2 years tops.

This is still rookie Batman and his gonna make mistakes.

Exactly, which was the whole point of the Joker in the first place. Batman was made, initially, to deal with the mob and regular crooks, the Falcone's and Maroni's of Gotham. The Joker is the embodiment of everything Gordon warned against at the end of BB, Batman should'nt have been prepared, which is why I say that by the end of the next film, his transformation into Batman should be complete, and he becomes the Dark Knight we all know and love from the comics, the one who is prepared and equipped for almost anything.

The Joker said it best, Batman has nothing to threaten him with and nothing to do with all his strength. The Joker doesn't fear death, and wants Batman to kill him to prove his point. He doesn't fear jail, and he isn't after anything other than Batman's own destruction, psychologically. All these reasons are why he is the greatest villain of all time, and why Batman vs the Joker is the most compelling matchup in almost any media, outside of lightsabers. It's a purely mental match, which was captured completely for the first time in a film. Burton touched on it, but not deeply enough, and I also think the way TDK handled it is even better, or at least on par, with the actual comics as well.

It's not about Batman having something to do with the Joker's origin or him falling into chemicals. Batman is responsible for the Joker simply because he doesn't kill him. Bruce's moral code is stronger than anyone the Joker has ever encountered, which intrigues him. Even Frank Miller, who interprets Batman as a Clint Eastwood-style outlaw couldn't allow him to kill the Joker, and I suspect in a weird way, without the Joker, Bruce may become unnecessary, and forced to regain the part of his humanity that died with his parents, something Bruce hasn't tackled since. Batman isn't just some kind of symbol, its Bruce's escape from finally dealing with his demons and moving on with his life. The man is almost obsessive compulsive, without the Joker to chase, how long would he honestly need to be out there every night? The other criminals are after something and in someway, can be brought down. The Joker can never be, he's as unreachable as Batman is incorruptible, and in eachother, however small, they see a glimmer of what they could have become had things gone a little differently

 

[GregComicFan]

I disagree with the original poster...

First, of all the Batman interpretations I've seen (animated series, movies, and current comics)... Batman is not that much of a talker with the villains he faces. He doesnt really explain or try to defend his philosophy or do-gooder ways.... so I think Batman acted like Batman during the interrogation scene. Batman, at the end, does ask Joker "What did you want? To prove that in the end everyone is as ugly as you?" as a jab to the Joker when the Ferrys don't blow each other up, so there's one jab. Batman believes in Gotham, believes in good people, and he basically sticks up for those ideals throughout.

Plus, from a dramatic point of view, the Joker needs to have the upper-hand or else he wouldnt be a compelling villain.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Physically Batman was beating on the Joker pretty bad i think

First time he came out of nowere and hit Joker so hard he flew back and than he hit joker lke once or twice again in the stomach

And in the interagation scene i mean Batma was punching him and slammed his head against the window and againts the table...Its just Joker was never bleeding so it didnt show

And at the end Batman got screwed over by that sonar because it went all crazy and he couldnt see ****

I dont know i dont think Batman got beatn by Joker at all

Physically Batman can piss all over Joker, but that doesn't mean nothing because Joker can't be defeated by physical pain. Joker very much beat Batman in this movie. He lost the love of his life, he destroyed Harvey Dent and more importantly he is ultimatly responsible for Batman becoming the thing he hates most, a murderer

 

[The Batman]

if joker/batman was one sided in this movie, then its been pretty one sided in the comics too...so whats the problem here, exactly?

 

[El Payaso]

if joker/batman was one sided in this movie, then its been pretty one sided in the comics too...so whats the problem here, exactly?

I haven't reead every Batman coimic, but has he felt forced to lie to everybody so to try and cover Joker's ideological triumph?

Don't get me wrong, I loved TDK's ending, but it was quite controversial. I mean, Batman's lie - for the ones who know about it - only re-inforced the solid Joker triumph. Even in The Killing Joke, Joker couldn't prove his point, but in TDK he did.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Thats what makes it a better movie IMO El Payaso. I'm sick and tired of seeing the hero win all the time, TDK has broken the mould by making Batman the loser. And theres nothing worse for Batman than being thought of as a murderer. I'm glad Joker won.

 

[El Payaso]

Thats what makes it a better movie IMO El Payaso. I'm sick and tired of seeing the hero win all the time, TDK has broken the mould by making Batman the loser. And theres nothing worse for Batman than being thought of as a murderer. I'm glad Joker won.

Oh I agree with your post man.

 

[The Batman]

I haven't reead every Batman coimic, but has he felt forced to lie to everybody so to try and cover Joker's ideological triumph?

Don't get me wrong, I loved TDK's ending, but it was quite controversial. I mean, Batman's lie - for the ones who know about it - only re-inforced the solid Joker triumph. Even in The Killing Joke, Joker couldn't prove his point, but in TDK he did.

Why do people forget the ferry incident?

Joker's plot was to corrupt Gotham as a whole...hence all the murders of public offcials, hence the idea of killing reese, hence the idea of corrupting harvey.

Joker corrupts harvey in a last ditch attempt to break gotham...thats why he's the "ace in the hole" after he's proven wrong in the ferry incident.

Batman, however, prevents this by covering up dents corruption. therefore, Batman gives gotham hope, which has been his mission all along.

If Gotham dosent know about dent, then joker fails.

Yeah, you can say "but dent was corrupted!" all you want, and thats true...but joker didnt win anything. This fight was a stalement at best, pure and simple. "The unstoppable force meets an immovable object". But, of course, this board probably only sees things in black and white, but the movie was shades of gray.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Why do people forget the ferry incident?

Joker's plot was to corrupt Gotham as a whole...hence all the murders of public offcials, hence the idea of killing reese, hence the idea of corrupting harvey.

Joker corrupts harvey in a last ditch attempt to break gotham...thats why he's the "ace in the hole" after he's proven wrong in the ferry incident.

Batman, however, prevents this by covering up dents corruption. therefore, Batman gives gotham hope, which has been his mission all along.

If Gotham dosent know about dent, then joker fails.

Yeah, you can say "but dent was corrupted!" all you want, and thats true...but joker didnt win anything. This fight was a stalement at best, pure and simple. "The unstoppable force meets an immovable object". But, of course, this board probably only sees things in black and white, but the movie was shades of gray.

Yea the ferries didn't blow up, no one will know Dent was a killer your right in that part. But Joker got the greatest victory of them all, making the public perceive Batman has become like him. That is why Joker won, Batman is now a murderer in the eyes of Gotham.

 

[SimpleHero82]

Dude that trap wasnt for batman. it was just a distraction so he could get a shot off at the mayor

I think this was done deliberately to show, in a way, how amateurish Batman was whilst competing in Jokers league. One of the heavy themes in this film was showing that Batman was useless against a criminal with no discernable weaknesses, weaknesses (like fear) he could exploit.

For example during the movie Bruce discovers the flat on Randolph street he truly believes himself to have the upper hand. But this was a trap, Joker predicted he would track him down and set the events (the timer and the scope) that would kill him. We have to remember that this is Batmans first exposure to such an unpredictable threat, it would be some time before he could turn the tables.

 

[ronny]

Of course Batman was dominated. he was fighting a complete loonie. A man he cannot predict or figure out. But rather than detract from the character it highlighted his heroic nature, even if you're destined to lose there's still honour in fighting anyway.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea thats like the English mentality, as long as you fight it doesn't matter if you lose. "You stand your ground and FIGHT!!"

 

[secretsquirrely]

I'd say that, no, the Joker did not win. The Joker's objectives when it comes to Batman has nothing to do with the public's eye. He could care less what the public thinks of Batman as much as Batman could care less. What made Batman win this was how he proved to the Joker that he was true and incorruptible. I think that every test that Batman was put through was a way for the Joker to try and push him over the edge. I mean, most everyone will say "he managed to corrupt Dent, Gotham's white knight. Therefore, he won". I think this was actually not even intended. He intended to kill Harvey in that explosion and just kind of went with it. I think that it was obvious from the beginning that Harvey was a very human soul, making him corruptible. The big game Joker was playing was trying to make Batman corruptible, trying to make him break his "one rule". So, he goes off and tortures the mind of Gotham's biggest hope. The result I think Joker was going for was to: a) have Batman kill Harvey out of anger, b)have Batman kill him(joker) out of the rage in him, in turn, making Joker a martyr for his point. But, with Batman taking the fall for Dent's murders and the whole lot he proved to the Joker that, "when the chips are down" he is civilized and his beliefs are still there. Batman truly believes in a better Gotham, and he'll do anything to have it..even be the villain.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Joker would care about Batman being perceived as a murderer, he was trying to get Batman to kill him throughout the whole film. Jokers aim is to get people to break their rules, it worked on Dent, but Batman covered it up and took the blame for himself. So Batman in the eyes of Gotham has killed, a major victory for Joker.
He didn't intend for Harvey to die in the hospital explosion, he released his straps and gave him the gun. Joker very much wanted Harvey to be a killer, the same as Batman, even if it meant that he himself is killed by either one of them.

 

[secretsquirrely]

Joker would care about Batman being perceived as a murderer, he was trying to get Batman to kill him throughout the whole film. Jokers aim is to get people to break their rules, it worked on Dent, but Batman covered it up and took the blame for himself. So Batman in the eyes of Gotham has killed, a major victory for Joker.
He didn't intend for Harvey to die in the hospital explosion, he released his straps and gave him the gun. Joker very much wanted Harvey to be a killer, the same as Batman, even if it meant that he himself is killed by either one of them.

the explosion I was referring to was the first one actually. Before he was scarred. He had no way of knowing that Harvey would be scarred and covered in gasoline, that was an unfortunate accident that just sort of played in his favor.

But I do think that in Joker's eyes he won a bit with the people of Gotham hating Batman. However, I still believe that Batman truly won in not changing his outlook on life. He remained strong through adversity and though it was a hard decision, he did the right thing. Also, keep in mind that Batman was the one who offered to take the blame for Harvey's murders. It wasn't a given that it was going to go that way, so Batman did not lose what so ever since he took on the task himself. Now if someone had seen him pushing or falling with Harvey, etc. then yeah I would consider that a loss on his part. But, Batman's just doing his duty to preserve hope in Harvey Dent.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I suppose you could say it was even stevens then. They both won in some way.

 

[The Batman]

Yea the ferries didn't blow up, no one will know Dent was a killer your right in that part. But Joker got the greatest victory of them all, making the public perceive Batman has become like him. That is why Joker won, Batman is now a murderer in the eyes of Gotham.

Thats not a great victory whatsoever...

Batman was hated by half of gotham anyway, and acknowledges many times that his role is NOT to be perceived as a flawless good guy like harvey dent.

As mentioned before, joker dosent care if the public sees batman as a killer...he only cared if Batman himself would actually cross the line

 

[Toxin72]

Thats not a great victory whatsoever...

Batman was hated by half of gotham anyway, and acknowledges many times that his role is NOT to be perceived as a flawless good guy like harvey dent.

As mentioned before, joker dosent care if the public sees batman as a killer...he only cared if Batman himself would actually cross the line

Batman whether intentionally or not did cross that line though. He tackled harvey off the building to his death. Even if it wasn't intentional he was directly responsible. So in that sense the joker still won because he corrupted harvey who then forced batman to have to break his one rule.

 

[The Batman]

Batman whether intentionally or not did cross that line though. He tackled harvey off the building to his death. Even if it wasn't intentional he was directly responsible. So in that sense the joker still won because he corrupted harvey who then forced batman to have to break his one rule.

what batman did was for the sake of heroism. Joker wanted Batman to be as bad as everyone else...you can say batman broke the rule, but even then that event showcases how incorruptable batman is.

It's still, at best, a stalemate.

 

[Toxin72]

what batman did was for the sake of heroism. Joker wanted Batman to be as bad as everyone else...you can say batman broke the rule, but even then that event showcases how incorruptable batman is.

It's still, at best, a stalemate.

Wouldn't killing joker be for the sake of heroism as well? Killing is killing no matter what the reason and he did just as the joker said he would which was breaking his one rule.

 

[TheDarkJoker]

But if Batman doesn't kill Joker, he has to live with the blame for the crimes that Joker eventually will commit.

 

[metalhead_dave]

I take back what I said originally. I just saw most of the final act(thanks youtube). Most of you were right. For the most part, Joker had Batman beat because Batman didn't know how to face the Joker, he didn't understand the Joker.

By the time the final act hit, Batman used the sonic device to track down the Joker and Batman was able to figure out that the Joker swaped his goons for the hostages and Batman's actions prevented deaths of the Swat and the Hostages alike.

So by the end, he does have a good handle on the Joker. I feel they were equals by the time the movie ended.