Who would be the villain

[The Joker]

I've heard all of the labored, nostalgia-blinded attempts to validate the show. It wasn't just a failed attempt to adapt the originally serious, darkly bizarre world of Bruce Wayne, it was a pathetic show on every level.

The show doesn't need validating. It's already validated, that's why it's stood the test of time for over 50 years, and still seeps it's way into Batman lore in every area; from movies, to animated shows, to comics, to video games.

It ain't going away. It'll still be doing it in another 50 years. Something as bad as you claim wouldn't have that kind of popularity and endurance.

It's no wonder that the general public thought comic books were drivel when this type of creative vomit was the highest profile "effort" for decades.

Comics had a childish/bad rep LONG before that show came along. Frederick Wertham also added fuel to that fire. It's also well documented that show saved the Batman comics. They were on the brink of cancellation until it came along and renewed interest in Batman.

Regardless of the reservations that I have about Affleck and WB, I have no doubt that any future Batman villains will be far superior to the offerings on that show.

If the DCEU's track record so far is anything to go by, that seems like a real stretch.

Anyway gone off topic here. This thread is supposed to be about villains for the next Batman movie, and I still say Penguin. Dapper, elegant, grandiose, ruthless Penguin;

I also want them to have a Penguin who likes to taunt Batman, and flaunt his superiority as a criminal;

 

[Lantern Venom]

I also wouldn't mind Onomonopoeia. He's grim enough to fit into the DCEU. I'm sure Kevin Smith wouldn't mind lending some ideas to his buddy, and it would be fitting to see Batman being hunted for being a hero since that was his mission in BvS.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I agree with that. The real turnaround would be to see Batman protecting his enemies, including the Joker (if possible), from the vengeful Jason Todd.

 

[Tg11]

Red Hood as the villain for Ben Affleck's solo film as Batman I wouldn't have a problem with that

 

[David H.]

Red Hood as the villain for Ben Affleck's solo film as Batman I wouldn't have a problem with that

Audience: "so… The Winter Soldier vs Batman?"

 

[Astro13Zombie]

Audience: "so… The Winter Soldier vs Batman?"

Nah

 

[David H.]

Audience: "so… The Winter Soldier vs Batman?"

Me: "yeah, pretty much."

 

[godisawesome]

Audience: "so… The Winter Soldier vs Batman?"

You do bring up a good point, which is why I think the best ways to cut off that comparison for a Batman solo if they bring in Jason is to do all the following:

-Remove any hints of brainwashing or personality erasure from Jason's character; if he's antagonistic (not necessarily villainous in comparison to the Joker et al.), then it should be clear that he is personally making the decisions that lead to the confrontation with Batman, and he should have that Robin sense of humor present throughout.
-Have Batman figure out who he is before the audience has it confirmed. This was one thing the UTRH cartoon movie got right; showcase Batman's detective skills and make it clear early on that he is already tormented by the fact that his son has gone "bad" but that it may be too late to "save" Jason.
-Bring in Dick and use him as a direct foil to both Bruce and Jason. To me, there needs to be multiple Robins in some shape or form; it's worked for literally every cartoon featuring the characters in the last 20 years, and you need that extra dimension of an actual family to wring out maximum drama. To me, the best idea would be to have all three men be autonomous vigilantes, but with Dick holding to a stricter no kill rule, Batman trying to get back towards that same rule, while Jason is full on "kill and replace" with the underworld. And Jason works better if he is opposed by both his "old man" and the "dutiful son" to his prodigal.
-Embrace a "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" set up with Jason as the Ugly side of the trifecta. Jason can't just be an antagonist alone; that fits the Winter Soldier theme too well. He needs to genuinely attempt to supplant and replace an "obsolete" Batman. Maybe even have him express pity towards Bruce and maybe even try and convince Bruce to retire at some point, all while both men try to take down some major villain.
-Give him agency in his death and return. This one I'm actually not so sure about, but I think it might help: have it revealed that Jason "deserted" Bruce intentionally before his death. This could just be him leaving Bats angry to go hunt the Joker, or it could be a mortally wounded Jason contacting Ra's to take up a resurrection offer after Batman apprehends the Joker- alive.

 

[Victarion]

A cyberpunk Riddler who, like the genre's heroes, does questionable things because he believes he's fighting a greater evil...that being the GPD and a system that looks the other way when it comes to the Batman.

We can have Penguin, Black Mask, and Poison Ivy appear in a capacity similar to Maroni, Gambol and the other bosses from TDK. Sowing the seeds for future movies.

 

[Rodrigo90]

So... really, the Riddler would be more of a hero than Batman

 

[Victarion]

Not really (I, for example, would disagree with Riddler's stance - I think the people that Batman killed had taken their lives into their own hands). His actions would still get a lot of people killed. Him screwing with mob profits and all. Riddler repaying what he believes is evil, with a greater evil. I'd like it to be more than "here's your designated hero, here's your designated villain - now fight!"

 

[Corysxj88]

We know we need more Joker... or at least I do. Hugo Strange would be awesome... I think Villains like Penguin and Riddler would be cool to have in the movie...but working together as a team.
I think Snyder is going to stay away from simple villains though...

Think we will ever seen Joker and Lex in the same move?

 

[Astro13Zombie]

I think Snyder is going to stay away from simple villains though...

Snyder isn't directing the batman solo.

 

[The Overlord]

The show doesn't need validating. It's already validated, that's why it's stood the test of time for over 50 years, and still seeps it's way into Batman lore in every area; from movies, to animated shows, to comics, to video games.

It ain't going away. It'll still be doing it in another 50 years. Something as bad as you claim wouldn't have that kind of popularity and endurance.



Comics had a childish/bad rep LONG before that show came along. Frederick Wertham also added fuel to that fire. It's also well documented that show saved the Batman comics. They were on the brink of cancellation until it came along and renewed interest in Batman.



If the DCEU's track record so far is anything to go by, that seems like a real stretch.

Anyway gone off topic here. This thread is supposed to be about villains for the next Batman movie, and I still say Penguin. Dapper, elegant, grandiose, ruthless Penguin;

I also want them to have a Penguin who likes to taunt Batman, and flaunt his superiority as a criminal;

But what kind of Penguin story would be epic enough to carry a movie? You don't want a movie that just feels like a 2 hour TV episode.

It seems like the most easy thing to do is to have a gang war story between Penguin and say Black Mask. Perhaps penguin can be the lesser of two evils in such a war, because Black Mask seems more psycho then Penguin is in the comics.

 

[BigSams50]

COurt of Owls would be awesome.

 

[regwec]

Penguin could be great. I think there are effectively a "big five" of antagonists:

- The Joker
- Two Face
- The Penguin
- Catwoman
- The Riddler

Within which Penguin fulfills an important role as the arch kleptocrat, hedonist and (in contrast to Catwoman) social insurgent. He was one of the most interesting members of the most interesting rogues gallery in comics.

 

[The Overlord]

Penguin could be great. I think there are effectively a "big five" of antagonists:

- The Joker
- Two Face
- The Penguin
- Catwoman
- The Riddler

Within which Penguin fulfills an important role as the arch kleptocrat, hedonist and (in contrast to Catwoman) social insurgent. He was one of the most interesting members of the most interesting rogues gallery in comics.

I disagree, Catwoman would not make for a compelling Big Bad of a film, Ra's Al Ghul or Bane would make for a better main villain then her. Catwoman is too small time to be a main villain for a movie, she is barely a villain in the comics.

And my question stands, how would have a Penguin epic story that is epic enough to carry a movie and not seem like a 2 hour TV episodes.

The best I can think of is have him as a mob boss and involved in a gang war with a rival like Black Mask or adapt aspects of the Earth One story line and make him the corrupt mayor of the city who is the main source of the city's corruption.

 

[regwec]

I did not, anywhere, say that Catwoman should be a "compelling Big Bad". In fact, I think "Big Bads" are rarely compelling.

 

[Newtski]

It makes too much sense for Hush to be the villain in this movie. The real Bruce Wayne is gone with the Justice League for a while, and an impostor Bruce masquerades around Gotham. And with the personal nature of Thomas "Tommy" Elliot and Bruce Wayne....wow.

I would love to see a serious Mr. Freeze, Riddler...The court of Owls story line is really interesting too. Regardless, I think the movie needs a classic villain to balance it out any villain unfamiliar to mass audience ( Hush,C..)

 

[The Overlord]

I did not, anywhere, say that Catwoman should be a "compelling Big Bad". In fact, I think "Big Bads" are rarely compelling.

What about Joker in Dark Knight? Big Bad just means the main villain of the story.

Catwoman can't carry a movie as a villain. But you are avoiding my main question, what Penguin stories are epic enough to be the basis of a movie?

 

[BlueLanternKal]

You do bring up a good point, which is why I think the best ways to cut off that comparison for a Batman solo if they bring in Jason is to do all the following:

-Remove any hints of brainwashing or personality erasure from Jason's character; if he's antagonistic (not necessarily villainous in comparison to the Joker et al.), then it should be clear that he is personally making the decisions that lead to the confrontation with Batman, and he should have that Robin sense of humor present throughout.
-Have Batman figure out who he is before the audience has it confirmed. This was one thing the UTRH cartoon movie got right; showcase Batman's detective skills and make it clear early on that he is already tormented by the fact that his son has gone "bad" but that it may be too late to "save" Jason.
-Bring in Dick and use him as a direct foil to both Bruce and Jason. To me, there needs to be multiple Robins in some shape or form; it's worked for literally every cartoon featuring the characters in the last 20 years, and you need that extra dimension of an actual family to wring out maximum drama. To me, the best idea would be to have all three men be autonomous vigilantes, but with Dick holding to a stricter no kill rule, Batman trying to get back towards that same rule, while Jason is full on "kill and replace" with the underworld. And Jason works better if he is opposed by both his "old man" and the "dutiful son" to his prodigal.
-Embrace a "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" set up with Jason as the Ugly side of the trifecta. Jason can't just be an antagonist alone; that fits the Winter Soldier theme too well. He needs to genuinely attempt to supplant and replace an "obsolete" Batman. Maybe even have him express pity towards Bruce and maybe even try and convince Bruce to retire at some point, all while both men try to take down some major villain.
-Give him agency in his death and return. This one I'm actually not so sure about, but I think it might help: have it revealed that Jason "deserted" Bruce intentionally before his death. This could just be him leaving Bats angry to go hunt the Joker, or it could be a mortally wounded Jason contacting Ra's to take up a resurrection offer after Batman apprehends the Joker- alive.

Damn, I almost like your Batman ideas as much as I like my Superman ideas. Props to you.

 

[regwec]

What about Joker in Dark Knight? Big Bad just means the main villain of the story.

Catwoman can't carry a movie as a villain. But you are avoiding my main question, what Penguin stories are epic enough to be the basis of a movie?

Are all movies epics?

 

[Victarion]

The only Penguin story I liked was in Batman Returns. If you want a mob war story, then Penguin works as one of the major players. Opposite Black Mask or another freak mobster.

 

[The Endless]

After Affleck spoke about bringing Batmans detective skills to the fore I'd like to see the Riddler done right.

 

[The Overlord]

Are all movies epics?

Well you need 3 acts and action and tension that builds towards a climax and all that has to fit in 2 hours, so yeah the movie has to be somewhat epic.

This shouldn't feel like a medoicre TV episode that is stretched to 2 hours. Penguin has to do something cinematic, not just engage in generic villainy for 2 hours and then Batman randomly stops him, that would be a bland movie.

That is why I suggested Penguin be involved with a gang war against Black Mask or have him be the mayor like in Earth One and be the source of Gotham's corruption, because it seems like the average Penguin story from the comics wouldn't make for a good movie, so you have to spice up his role a bit.