The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed?

[RocketsNutz]

I think the books are important for her to get a handle on what the old Jedi knew of the Force, their mission, their philosophy, etc.

But if one can indulge a somewhat lengthy digression...

[YT]Rme4HrOL8vw[/YT]

"When gone am I... The Last Of The Jedi will you be... Pass on what you have learned..."

Yoda in TLJ showed that he had learned the lessons of the Jedi Order's failures that led to the rise of the Empire and the corruption of Anakin Skywalker. In light of the Episode VIII and it's arc for Luke I think that the idea of Luke passing on what he had learned was about much more than what ever technique or philosophy he had acquired. What he passed to Rey was what he had learned in life itself. The hard won wisdom born of triumphs and failures that is never going to be in a book, even a book full of Jedi knowledge, which Luke himself knew was not capable of being transmitted in it's entirety to Rey in any single or even multiple lessons. He could only start her down the path as a guide, having traveled such a path himself.

What Luke and her experiences in TLJ have given Rey is the ability to see the heavenly glory and not the finger.

That is my take.

Interesting take. I need to get off my ass and see the movie again and better parse Luke's dialog. The one thing that is bugging me is that he's obviously come to a better understanding of the Force, as did Yoda in the last season of TCW, and as Lucasfilm across media (TCW, Rebels, etc) have been hinting/moving towards (ie the concept that The Force is not just a Jedi/Sith thing).

What doesn't add up to me, is if he's come to that realization, why turn himself off from the Force? From Jedi dogma... yeah I get that, but not from the Force.

And also... not related to the above, but was I the only one who was feeling like the map in TFA was setup somehow to be part of Luke's plan or something?

For me I felt like they were setting things up that when Kylo turned/Temple burned, that he realized he needed more knowledge to help deal with the threat/problem at play... hence taking off to find the first temple. And leaving a bit of a breadcrumb with the map, putting R2 in stasis until the map was found... and at the point the map gets found, it'd be a 'will of the force'-type thing and it was time for the next steps (much like like Obi-wan coming across Luke and the droids in ANH). I guess now I'm wondering why was there a map left behind? It's just another one of those 'it feels TLJ undoes/renders unimportant something from TFA' things.

 

[danoyse]

Regarding R2 and that missing piece of the map...it's kind of a morbid thought, but Luke would have needed an astromech droid to fly his X-wing to Ahch-To, and we saw he'd sunk his X-wing. Is is possible he drowned the droid as well? And that's why he didn't take R2?

Maybe R2 had the map, and was expecting to go with Luke when they left, and shut down to low-power mode when he realized Luke left him behind. R2 was at the Jedi Temple when everything wrong with Ben too, maybe that and Luke leaving without him had been too much even for R2-D2.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Interesting take. I need to get off my ass and see the movie again and better parse Luke's dialog. The one thing that is bugging me is that he's obviously come to a better understanding of the Force, as did Yoda in the last season of TCW, and as Lucasfilm across media (TCW, Rebels, etc) have been hinting/moving towards (ie the concept that The Force is not just a Jedi/Sith thing).

What doesn't add up to me, is if he's come to that realization, why turn himself off from the Force? From Jedi dogma... yeah I get that, but not from the Force.

And also... not related to the above, but was I the only one who was feeling like the map in TFA was setup somehow to be part of Luke's plan or something?

For me I felt like they were setting things up that when Kylo turned/Temple burned, that he realized he needed more knowledge to help deal with the threat/problem at play... hence taking off to find the first temple. And leaving a bit of a breadcrumb with the map, putting R2 in stasis until the map was found... and at the point the map gets found, it'd be a 'will of the force'-type thing and it was time for the next steps (much like like Obi-wan coming across Luke and the droids in ANH). I guess now I'm wondering why was there a map left behind? It's just another one of those 'it feels TLJ undoes/renders unimportant something from TFA' things.

I think Luke had a journey, and yeah, unfortunately for us fans, we didn't see it. But him being the only "Jedi Master" when the order was extinguished again was a big hit to his psyche. I think the cutting off from the Force wasn't an instant thing. It was a gradual thing perhaps. As his doubt and guilt festered he either came to the decision to "walk away" some time after the betrayal by his nephew or it simply built up over time as he spiraled into his depression. Maybe he did start out looking for the first Temple of the Jedi as a way to recover? Yeah, he said he came there to die but that again may have been a conclusion he made after the fact. However it came about it fits into the classic end of the hero's journey stuff where once again the aged protagonist is called to enter the fray and just as before the hero refuses the call at first. I know some find this aspect of Luke to be troubling... It's supposed to be. It's supposed to mirror real people's lives. I wish life got tied up in a neat bow with a "happily ever after" but that's just not the case. Luke is still an example, a heroic one even in my mind in TLJ but it's not as the idealized youth with no experience of the world. This is one where the character has scars, painful ones which are as relateable in their own ways as the wistful longing of the young man looking out at the twin sunsets of a desert world. That has resonance when we are young. But life doesn't stay in that phase, and while Lucas wanted these tales to be fun experiences SW was also seen as modern mythology. If it's just comfort food for the soul it would lack the resonance George was going for. Myth and folklore doesn't just comfort, it confronts and thus helps us to confront. Luke's journey had him dealing with great, GREAT tradgedy, from the start. His aunt and uncle are brutally murdered. That's in the first film.

Luke might have had a clearer picture of the Force than before but that was not enough to help him heal. That he saw beyond a mere binary view that had acrued to the Jedi wasn't enough to help him through his own issues of guilt, and lack of confidence. Even at his age, as a "Jedi Master" he still had lessons to learn, and personal obstacles to overcome.

Which isn't to say that your points about the setup in TFA don't have some validity to them. I too thought there was a chance that Luke was preparing for something but they went a different way. Also the various setups in TFA are actually vague enough to go almost any direction really when you look at it and I think that's on purpose to lead into TLJ. I suspect that having a second film in the trilogy that seems to turn so much fan expectations on it's ears was not just the result of Johnson's druthers but planned out by the Lucasfilm story group. No matter who was going to direct and write the second chapter probably had a mandate to not follow the path of least resistance story wise.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Regarding R2 and that missing piece of the map...it's kind of a morbid thought, but Luke would have needed an astromech droid to fly his X-wing to Ahch-To, and we saw he'd sunk his X-wing. Is is possible he drowned the droid as well? And that's why he didn't take R2?

Maybe R2 had the map, and was expecting to go with Luke when they left, and shut down to low-power mode when he realized Luke left him behind. R2 was at the Jedi Temple when everything wrong with Ben too, maybe that and Luke leaving without him had been too much even for R2-D2.

I left that out of my above response but that's kind of been my thoughts too. R2 was Luke's companion through so much. Luke's tragedy affected not just him but those around him as well. Leia, Han and yes, even R2.

 

[danoyse]

I left that out of my above response but that's kind of been my thoughts too. R2 was Luke's companion through so much. Luke's tragedy affected not just him but those around him as well. Leia, Han and yes, even R2.

Yep. People are upset by Luke being so defeated in TLJ, but Han really wasn't much better in TFA. Yeah, he had some funny lines, but...he wasn't together with Leia anymore. Who would have predicted 'space divorce' after the original trilogy ended?

His way of helping Rey, Finn and BB-8 was to find them a ship to take them to the Resistance. He didn't want to face Leia. Maz wouldn't help him because she told him he had to quit messing around and get back to the fight.

He seemed brokenhearted over losing Ben. Even before he died, even after Ben fatally injured him, he still reached for him before he fell.

When Luke was first mentioned, it seemed there was a lot unsaid between them that had never been resolved. Everyone was a mess.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I left that out of my above response but that's kind of been my thoughts too. R2 was Luke's companion through so much. Luke's tragedy affected not just him but those around him as well. Leia, Han and yes, even R2.

My throat lumped up when he called R2 "old friend". Hamill really was the MVP in TLJ.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

My throat lumped up when he called R2 "old friend". Hamill really was the MVP in TLJ.

He really was. It was great to see.

 

[RocketsNutz]

A few other thoughts...

1) VERY curious what extra nuggets we'll get in the Novelization of the movie.

2) Seems odd to me that Luke wouldn't have gotten a little 'help from beyond' going through all that initially. Not that we would have seen it onscreen or anything. I guess I'm just one of those that's a little more frustrated on the macro view of things (ie how things got to the point they did, with Ben, with TFO, with everything) and the lack of onscreen explanation. I'm fan enough to go and read the books, but I just haven't had time.

3) I do admit that they still have another film that might end up presenting things in a way that just blows us away. Granted I felt like after TFA that 'maybe the next one will make it better'.

4) Kinda annoyed thinking about how all the other LF materials, since just before, and definitely after TFA have had this theme of Jedi/Sith relics and stuff... basically seems like there's been all this chatter about that stuff, that it was leading up to something, and yet.... bagel nothing yet. And from that perspective, as a fan it's another thing making me lose faith in what they are doing on the whole.

5) Back to the whole Luke's POV, arc. Whole movie (from several angles), 'jedi must end', 'let the past die', they were morons, let it go, bury it, yadda yadda yadda.... end of movie "oh, i'm not the last jedi"... Such freaking bipolar messaging.

 

[danoyse]

My throat lumped up when he called R2 "old friend". Hamill really was the MVP in TLJ.

I love how Luke, miserable as he was, actually lit up when he saw R2.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Eh... I think life is one big bipolar message.

 

[RocketsNutz]

Eh... I think life is one big bipolar message.

Word. But seriously... am I the only one who thought it was a little incongruent? Haven't had a chance to talk to my buds about it too much since we saw it.

 

[markjoedelonge]

He really was. It was great to see.

I love how Luke, miserable as he was, actually lit up when he saw R2.

Also loved how he winked at Threepio and the way Threepio said "Master Luke...." with such admiration, respect and love. Of all the OT characters, Luke was probably the only one who treated him like a real person.

 

[danoyse]

Word. But seriously... am I the only one who thought it was a little incongruent? Haven't had a chance to talk to my buds about it too much since we saw it.

When they played that "it's time for the Jedi to end" line in the trailer and people freaked out over it, I thought it actually made sense a little. I mean, they'd been wiped out at least twice now. My thinking was that it meant that the Jedi Order, as we knew it, would need to end. It was time for all of it to become something else.

And in the movie, it's really what everyone had to learn. In the end, Luke realized that he didn't need to be the last Jedi, that it could and would live on past him.

 

[jmc]

I get what you are saying, because loss is often used for character growth. I do feel the loss of Han as a potential father figure was certainly felt by the character when Kylo killed him and that continued on into TLJ.

However, I think Rey's journey is meant to be something else. She told Luke she wanted to know her place in everything. This whole lack of identity is a personal struggle for her, so despite any victories that she might achieve to the wider world, she is still lacking what she needs personally: that sense of belonging, of discovery who she is and what this all means for her.

How could her loss of Luke as another father figure resonate in the next film? Will she be affected by the weight of responsibility as the last Jedi? OR maybe more personally, what feelings might she have about Finn and Rose finding one another. Personally I think this is where we see Rey's "losses", as her personal life is affected by the circumstances, as her need for identity and/or family eludes her. She is overcoming them little by little in each film and that is where she is experiencing growth.

Can you not see how your description of her in your second paragraph is so vague for a heroes journey though? There's nothing wrong with personal journeys but there still need to be something more than just searching for ones self. It's too vague for a hero. Personal journeys need to be about some type of actual goal, not just will she cope with the situation.

Look at Rocky Balboa, what did he want to do? He just wanted to go the distance for 12 rounds against Apollo. Batman's goal was to clean up Gotham City, Indiana Jones' goal was to prevent Nazi from stealing the Arc of the Covenant, Sarah Conner's goal was to stop Judgement Day, The Bride's goal was to exact revenge against those who killed her child, Jyn Erso's goal was to steal the Death Star plans, Luke's goal was to become a Jedi and fight against the Empire. If Rey's journey was to be about self discovery and to become something more than what she was it needed to be her choosing to make the change, not just have things happen to her which is kinda what happens in these two films.

As for the father figures thing, I just can't see how that's believable given how little time she spent with both Han and Luke. Again, we're talking days here across both films where she's spent very little time getting to know everyone. I can't see how anyone can see that as anything close to being the family she always wanted, an idea that I think should have been the backbone for her arc, but ultimately wasted.

 

[Flemm]

Can you not see how your description of her in your second paragraph is so vague for a heroes journey though?

It hasn't been handled well.

Rey was set up to be a protagonist-type character, albeit as part of the "mystery box" atmosphere of the first movie.

In The Last Jedi, though, she is essentially switched out for Luke, who is the true protagonist of the movie. One can tell because he has the real substantive struggle, with his own demons and mistakes, and eventually with Kylo, his wayward apprentice. He also has the strongest arc by far of any character in the film (it's a redemption arc).

The Luke material is fantastic, albeit controversial for obvious reasons, but I think the choice did a disservice to Rey, and also to Poe and Finn, who should be more developed and central to the story by this time also. They should also have stronger relationships with each other.

That's my main issue with the movie. It's a new trilogy, it should primarily be about Finn, Rey and Poe, but this movie was not really interested.

Other than Luke, the heroic character who stands out is Holdo.

 

[writer0327]

Can you not see how your description of her in your second paragraph is so vague for a heroes journey though? There's nothing wrong with personal journeys but there still need to be something more than just searching for ones self. It's too vague for a hero. Personal journeys need to be about some type of actual goal, not just will she cope with the situation.

Look at Rocky Balboa, what did he want to do? He just wanted to go the distance for 12 rounds against Apollo. Batman's goal was to clean up Gotham City, Indiana Jones' goal was to prevent Nazi from stealing the Arc of the Covenant, Sarah Conner's goal was to stop Judgement Day, The Bride's goal was to exact revenge against those who killed her child, Jyn Erso's goal was to steal the Death Star plans, Luke's goal was to become a Jedi and fight against the Empire. If Rey's journey was to be about self discovery and to become something more than what she was it needed to be her choosing to make the change, not just have things happen to her which is kinda what happens in these two films.

As for the father figures thing, I just can't see how that's believable given how little time she spent with both Han and Luke. Again, we're talking days here across both films where she's spent very little time getting to know everyone. I can't see how anyone can see that as anything close to being the family she always wanted, an idea that I think should have been the backbone for her arc, but ultimately wasted.

Exactly why I love Rey's journey....it is unique, because it doesn't follow the monomyth template that has been the standard of Star Wars forever. Listen, I don't disagree with anything you're saying insofar as what the hero's journey is and how it normally goes, but it goes back to what I feel Star Wars needs. Different stories, different points of view on storytelling, introspective heroes and villains. Stretching more than just the story elements, but also the narrative style.

It feels jarring, I know, but it is a step in the right direction to allow filmmakers to extend the franchise outside of the SW box. Otherwise if we are only going to continue just to repeat the same exact story style, character types, and narrative rhythms again and again, because it's "Star Wars" and its the only way SW fandom will accept this universe, well then just stop making these films, as nothing is ever going to be good as what's already gone before and there is no room for growth for the franchise. It would be only rinsing and repeating the same stuff over and over, just with new faces and plot points.

But to your position, one of the reasons why I feel Rey's journey is important to the franchise, within the narrative, as well as outside of the story, is because hers is one of self-discovery. And by the way, you said Rey needed to choose to make changes. I think the choice not to go back to Jakku, a place she was trying to get back to all movie, but to go onward to Ahch-To to find Luke, as well as the choice to leave Ahch-To to confront Kylo Ren in TLJ...these are the moves you are looking for. Things aren't just happening to Rey and she's going with the flow. She is making choices.

As far as her feelings about Han and Luke, I'm reminded of how Luke took Obi-Wan's death. Some will argue Luke was close to Obi-Wan, but he hardly knew him...he was just a friendly old hermit, so I don't think there was any deep relationship between them at all. So I think it's reasonable for Rey to feel something at least similar for the loss of Han and Luke. Both galactic legends and presumably Rey grew up hearing stories of their adventures, so there's probably some hero worship going on already. Not only that, they got into an adventure of their own and had to get out of a couple of scrapes together. Also, Rey and Han hit it off right away, to the point that Han was already offering her a job after what appeared to be a short amount of time. I bet that resonated powerfully in a person like Rey, who's been alone her whole life, a scavenger or a junk planet, to have someone like Han offer her a job. Han and Rey spent a similar amount of time together as Luke and Obi-Wan in ANH, so I'd argue that if Luke can hurt from the loss of Obi-Wan, so can she. But beside the feeling a kinship and closeness to Han, she is desperately is looking for a sense of belonging to something, and finally she had that. So when she reacted to his death in TFA, I totally bought it.

 

[Flemm]

it is unique, because it doesn't follow the monomyth template that has been the standard of Star Wars forever.

I think it's worth noting that a protagonist having a goal, some type of central conflict, obstacles to overcome... none of that is derived from the "monomyth."

The monomyth is just one influential, but highly debatable, and even potentially very misleading, attempt to distill the essence of heroic stories.

It's not a pre-existing thing upon which heroic stories are mostly based, except in the case of a few modern stories that refer to it directly (like Star Wars).

The idea that some type of core challenge or conflict is essential to character development does not come from the monomyth.

It comes from storytelling and related traditions that are far older than that relatively new concept.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think it's worth noting that a protagonist having a goal, some type of central conflict, obstacles to overcome... none of that is derived from the "monomyth."

The monomyth is just one influential, but highly debatable, and even potentially very misleading, attempt to distill the essence of heroic stories.

It's not a pre-existing thing upon which heroic stories are mostly based, except in the case of a few modern stories that refer to it directly (like Star Wars).

The idea that some type of core challenge or conflict is essential to character development does not come from the monomyth.

It comes from storytelling and related traditions that are far older than that relatively new concept.

Uh... The ancient storytelling and related traditions are the basis of said concept though.

 

[Brother Jack]

The Luke material is fantastic, albeit controversial for obvious reasons, but I think the choice did a disservice to Rey, and also to Poe and Finn, who should be more developed and central to the story by this time also. They should also have stronger relationships with each other.

That's my main issue with the movie. It's a new trilogy, it should primarily be about Finn, Rey and Poe, but this movie was not really interested.

I would disagree with that because the role of the OT characters has been to service the new characters. Han was there to mentor Rey, Finn, and provide a turning point for Kylo; Leia all but relinquishes her leadership role to Poe by the end of TLJ; and though Luke does have a very pronounced arc, he ultimately has to be what Rey (and Kylo) "grow beyond". It's why I think him dying works for the story, and is actually kind of necessary. It's the passing of the torch, being lessons the new characters have to learn.

 

[Flemm]

Uh... The ancient storytelling and related traditions are the basis of said concept though.

Yeah, but people talk as if the monomyth were the basis for heroic stories, which it is not.

It has influenced a few modern heroic stories, but it would be a mistake to assume that modern heroic stories all refer directly to it. Many do not. Many simply refer to the existing traditions and source material that are completely independent of the monomyth.

The monomyth concept itself was based on a very limited sample of existing heroic stories, and it is just a highly debatable (though influential) interpretation of those stories.

Just to take an example for illustrative purposes, characters like Hamlet and Othello aren't based around a core conflict because the monomyth said that it should work like that. The monomyth didn't even exist as an idea until the late 19th-century, I think it was.

They are based around a core conflict because that is a very effective way to develop characters.

Same thing for Don Quixote, although that is a parody. Or Odysseus, who needs to get back to Ithaca.

By not building a character around a core struggle or conflict, it's entirely possible that you may not really be deconstructing the monomyth, but simply failing to develop the character properly.

Something to consider

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Yeah, but people talk as if the monomyth were the basis for heroic stories, which it is not.

It has influenced a few modern heroic stories, but it would be a mistake to assume that modern heroic stories all refer directly to it. Many do not. Many simply refer to the existing traditions and source material that are completely independent of the monomyth.

The monomyth concept itself was based on a very limited sample of existing heroic stories, and it is just a highly debatable (though influential) interpretation of those stories.

Just to take an example for illustrative purposes, characters like Hamlet and Othello aren't based around a core conflict because the monomyth said that it should work like that. The monomyth didn't even exist as an idea until the late 19th-century, I think it was.

They are based around a core conflict because that is a very effective way to develop characters.

Same thing for Don Quixote, although that is a parody. Or Odysseus, who needs to get back to Ithaca.

By not building a character around a core struggle or conflict, it's entirely possible that you may not really be deconstructing the monomyth, but simply failing to develop the character properly.

Something to consider

I honestly fail to see your point at all. The monomyth concept is descriptive in my mind, not proscriptive. It's analytical not a blueprint per se.

 

[Flemm]

I honestly fail to see your point at all. The monomyth concept is descriptive in my mind, not proscriptive. It's analytical not a blueprint per se.

Let me go back to the original points I was responding to:

Can you not see how your description of her in your second paragraph is so vague for a heroes journey though? There's nothing wrong with personal journeys but there still need to be something more than just searching for ones self. It's too vague for a hero. Personal journeys need to be about some type of actual goal, not just will she cope with the situation.

Exactly why I love Rey's journey....it is unique, because it doesn't follow the monomyth template that has been the standard of Star Wars forever.

So, to answer your question, the point is that Rey's story not following the monomyth template is not a good justification for the lack of a clear struggle or core conflict.

The need for that type of conflict or struggle has nothing to do with the monomyth template.

It has to do with basic issues of character development that are completely independent of that concept.

 

[jmc]

Exactly why I love Rey's journey....it is unique, because it doesn't follow the monomyth template that has been the standard of Star Wars forever. Listen, I don't disagree with anything you're saying insofar as what the hero's journey is and how it normally goes, but it goes back to what I feel Star Wars needs. Different stories, different points of view on storytelling, introspective heroes and villains. Stretching more than just the story elements, but also the narrative style.

It feels jarring, I know, but it is a step in the right direction to allow filmmakers to extend the franchise outside of the SW box. Otherwise if we are only going to continue just to repeat the same exact story style, character types, and narrative rhythms again and again, because it's "Star Wars" and its the only way SW fandom will accept this universe, well then just stop making these films, as nothing is ever going to be good as what's already gone before and there is no room for growth for the franchise. It would be only rinsing and repeating the same stuff over and over, just with new faces and plot points.

But to your position, one of the reasons why I feel Rey's journey is important to the franchise, within the narrative, as well as outside of the story, is because hers is one of self-discovery. And by the way, you said Rey needed to choose to make changes. I think the choice not to go back to Jakku, a place she was trying to get back to all movie, but to go onward to Ahch-To to find Luke, as well as the choice to leave Ahch-To to confront Kylo Ren in TLJ...these are the moves you are looking for. Things aren't just happening to Rey and she's going with the flow. She is making choices.

As far as her feelings about Han and Luke, I'm reminded of how Luke took Obi-Wan's death. Some will argue Luke was close to Obi-Wan, but he hardly knew him...he was just a friendly old hermit, so I don't think there was any deep relationship between them at all. So I think it's reasonable for Rey to feel something at least similar for the loss of Han and Luke. Both galactic legends and presumably Rey grew up hearing stories of their adventures, so there's probably some hero worship going on already. Not only that, they got into an adventure of their own and had to get out of a couple of scrapes together. Also, Rey and Han hit it off right away, to the point that Han was already offering her a job after what appeared to be a short amount of time. I bet that resonated powerfully in a person like Rey, who's been alone her whole life, a scavenger or a junk planet, to have someone like Han offer her a job. Han and Rey spent a similar amount of time together as Luke and Obi-Wan in ANH, so I'd argue that if Luke can hurt from the loss of Obi-Wan, so can she. But beside the feeling a kinship and closeness to Han, she is desperately is looking for a sense of belonging to something, and finally she had that. So when she reacted to his death in TFA, I totally bought it.

You're argument about the need top step in a new direction I feel is flawed because it insinuates the heroes journey isn't good enough for Star Wars anymore. It's subversion of a template for the sake of it not because it makes sense. The examples of heroes journeys I listed are as different as you can get, but they all share the same element, obstacles and an end goal. Rey unfortunately has had few real goals and set backs, and the choices she makes doesn't amount to much in terms of character development. The issue now is there's really nowhere for her to go as a character other than to teach others what little she knows about the force and the Jedi, which brings up its own set of questions that fly in the face of canon.

In the end it's got nothing to do with Star Wars, it's got everything to do with giving the character an end goal. A heroes journey has to have a goal, other wise it's not a heroes journey. It's not much of anything, in fact I'd go so far as to say it's bordering on being an abstract concept. Thing is even films about self discovery give the protagonist challenges they have to overcome. Physical or emotional. And this is what's missing from Rey and why there's a lack of growth.

If you break her down as a character she was able to wield a lightsaber very quickly, beat a former storm trooper easily, start using the force, withstood the dark side, defeat two far more experienced force users, able to lift massive boulders with ease, and found out who her parents were within one and a half movies, with almost no help from anyone. All those challenges that you normally would have to overcome in a story are simply given to her. At no point is she made to fall flat on her face or made to do the heavy lifting. You need that otherwise you're just left with a concept not a character, and sadly that's what I feel Rey has become - a concept.

 

[Flemm]

To put it another way, heroes and protagonists don't generally face adversity, overcome obstacles, go on a journey, have a goal that is difficult to attain, etc. because of somebody's very dubious theory of comparative mythology.

They have that because *people* have that: adversity, obstacles to overcome, an internal struggle, a search for meaning.

That's not something that can be deconstructed. It always going to be an essential part of what it means to create compelling characters.

 

[writer0327]

You're argument about the need top step in a new direction I feel is flawed because it insinuates the heroes journey isn't good enough for Star Wars anymore. It's subversion of a template for the sake of it not because it makes sense.

My feeling is that if they are going to continue to make SW a yearly film franchise, and they want to avoid making carbon copies of ANH, ESB, etc, etc, et al, they will need to start doing things like TLJ. One of the things that made SW such a phenomenon was its rarity, but if you play the same notes and beats over and over, it's like listening to a hit song for the 80th time....it just doesn't have the same luster. It's played out.

So yes, subverting the template for the sake of it. Sometimes it will work and sometimes it won't. I feel this was a genuine attempt to take the SW material and do something else with it. This came in the form of a personal journey for Rey, and while it is up for debate whether it worked or not, I think that is the only way Disney gets its money's worth over the long haul.

The examples of heroes journeys I listed are as different as you can get, but they all share the same element, obstacles and an end goal. Rey unfortunately has had few real goals and set backs, and the choices she makes doesn't amount to much in terms of character development.

You are saying this as though a character cannot have a personal, internal journey and internal struggle. I saw TFA as being Rey's intro, and there was a lot to chew on, but not from a "physical" standpoint, not from learning a skill or defeating an enemy, it was overcoming something in her past that was unspoken. It was interesting that Maz hit upon this in the scene at the Castle. It was glossed over by most SW fans because it isn't light sabers and the Force and the Jedi and good vs evil, which is what SW has always been about. The look on her face when Maz said there was nothing back on Jakku for her.....that was something deep and personal, not surface level or even galaxy-impacting. That was Rey's story, and I don't see why a SW story can't be something like that.

The issue now is there's really nowhere for her to go as a character other than to teach others what little she knows about the force and the Jedi, which brings up its own set of questions that fly in the face of canon.

At this point they have to fly in the face of canon, challenge the canon, expand the canon, break the mold and break new ground. Star Wars needs creators to actually "create". Otherwise, as I said early, if we cannot do that with Star Wars, then what is the point? If we cannot challenge and expand what has come before, if there is no growth, I'd might as well throw on the OT and just enjoy that.

In the end it's got nothing to do with Star Wars, it's got everything to do with giving the character an end goal. A heroes journey has to have a goal, other wise it's not a heroes journey. It's not much of anything, in fact I'd go so far as to say it's bordering on being an abstract concept. Thing is even films about self discovery give the protagonist challenges they have to overcome. Physical or emotional. And this is what's missing from Rey and why there's a lack of growth.

I like Rey's character growth in TLJ. I feel she had a clear goal and she clearly stated it in plain language to Luke. But that's also part of the problem, a character like this has never really been injected into Star Wars in quite this way. I think many are attempting to understand Rey in light of what has come before, and I admit, it is hard to see this character outside of the SW scope and history (because....Star Wars!), but maybe this is why we need to get away from the physical and into the personal and psychological challenges, because that's Rey's story.

If you break her down as a character she was able to wield a lightsaber very quickly, beat a former storm trooper easily, start using the force, withstood the dark side, defeat two far more experienced force users, able to lift massive boulders with ease, and found out who her parents were within one and a half movies, with almost no help from anyone. All those challenges that you normally would have to overcome in a story are simply given to her. At no point is she made to fall flat on her face or made to do the heavy lifting. You need that otherwise you're just left with a concept not a character, and sadly that's what I feel Rey has become - a concept.

I agree with all of the "ease" of Rey's physical obstacles, but what of her mental challenges? Is she fully formed and whole? Is she completely adapted and perfectly whole psychologically and emotionally? I don't think so, not at this point. And a lot of the hero's journey/monomyth storytelling involves characters who learn something from their physical/tangible challenges. I will argue they are attempting to change the dichotomy of the template from a tangible challenge to something more internal. Rey will grow and learn something about herself from this mental and psychological and almost spiritual journey.