Did the Ultimate Universe lose it's vision?

[Darthphere]

When I was like, 12, I had a yin/yang necklace. I thought I was badass.

It was still the eighties right? You probably were. But only if you had a denim jacket too.

 

[PhotoJones]

I'm not that old. It was 1995 when I was 12. I also had overall shorts that I only buckled (fastened?) one of the straps. 'Cause, you know, I was badass.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Whatever happened to Whirlysplat, anyway? The last time I saw him around, he was using a dummy account (Dexterfan, or something) to agree with his points.

It's sort of funny. I notice if I go away, he comes around very frequently, and when I come back, he all but dissapears.


Do you think that sort of obsession is healthy?


And that denim jacket best have been ripped, yo. *Is learning slang. n.n*

 

[Aristotle]

So does anyone want to tell me what I'm doing that's pissing everyone off, aside from taking a minority viewpoint on cherished sacred cows of comic book fandom?

 

[Harlekin]

When I was like, 12, I had a yin/yang necklace. I thought I was badass.

Same here, bro, same here, except I was 14!

 

[GL1]

In short the Ultimate Universe seemed to be a remake of the 616 universe. It made easier for me to jump back into 616. For example by reading the Ultimates it made it easier to get into the Avengers(which I wasn't very familiar with at the time)

Then everything, in my opinion went to crap. They brought time travel and alternate universes in for one. They started doing gimmicky things like making Cable future wolverine. The storylines became more outlandish...like the Clone Saga. I think you guys know what I'm getting at.

If you read the first few runs of Ultimate Spiderman, X-men, and Fantastic Four and compare them to their more recent runs you may see what I'm talking about. I stopped reading the Ultimate line all together so i don't know if the Ultimates is still good or not.

To me the Ultimate line was originally was a remake of 616 and a more streamlined more realistic approach to super hero comics. Now it just seems to be a parody of 616.

So anybody agree and if so know why it ended up like this?

I knew, honestly, that the Ultimate Universe was done for when they didn't make The Thing black. It showed that race was once again sacred and we weren't allowed to screw with it, even if it didn't change the silhouette of the characters. I knew that FF was going to not only going to lack a coherent theme (as they focus on the completely fantastic, and the UU is supposed to be mundaner than that), but there was going to be nothing to separate them from the 616 Four... that stories would be transferable...

And from that point, others would follow suit. And they did. Kirkman's done some RAPID regression back to "what works" 616-style, Spider-Man is rehash after rehash (are we still sticking with the trite and old-school villains-at-large scenarios here? After, what? 40 years???) and Ultimates, for all it's claim to fame of seriousness, for all it's taught balance between is Thor a god or not talk... it degenerated into Superheroes fighting the Injustice Gang followed by some big ugly other-dimensional demons.

Why did this happen? Success... anytime a bold new creator comes up with something that is successful, other, less talented and visionary folks come and gum up the works with their lack of imagination, diminishing the quality greatly and erasing what made it good in the first place by trying to 'secure their investment.' Success invites people who are scared of risk, and when that success is dependent on risk taking, you are heading headlong into failure.

Oh, that the Ultimate Universe could have stayed Ultimate. If only:

• All but Spider-Man's most enduring (Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Venom, Kingpin) had died, leaving room to turn second stringers into amazing, DEEP characters full of pathos.
• Peter Parker's social life continued to have the same drama and honus as it did in USM's early days.
• The Chitauri had not been downgraded back to "The Skrull" (DUMB DUMB DUMB) and they remained a lingering, however not a pertinent, threat.
• Ultimates 2 had actually fooled us, giving us Hawkeye as a traitor, or Tony Stark, hell, Captain America, rescuing our nation from it's own leaders.
• Ultimates 2 had had a more down-to-earth enemy, such as Ultron and his army of robots, leading to an introduction of a single VISION character. That's how you steal America, not by marching your super powers onto Capitol Hill. Ugh.
• Ultimate X-Men had stayed away from 616, forinstance, giving Cyclops and Jean PERMANENT alternate relationships would have gone a LOOONG way. Sending Nightcrawler over the edge was a nice touch, but a few more deaths would have cemented for everyone that this is serious business and the X-Men are completely unprepared for it. Kill off unkillable people. Like Iceman.
• Milk the terrorism thing to the bone. Mutant terrorism is a scary thing, and it's not something that would revolve around Magneto, really. It would spread rapidly.
• Move the school. let Cyclops get complete control of his powers. Let him actually get with Psylocke, or better, Storm or something, and be HAPPY. Let Jean and Logan get together and find out why they're not so perfect for each other after all! Do something that can't be done in 616!
• Fantastic Four... no space journeys... no alternate realities. Let them be like the X-Files, investigating craziness across the country and deducing it's origin, either human, robotic, mutant or what have you.
• Reverse them. Let Thing be able to change and Johnny NOT be able to change. Permanently. See? Intense.

They could have done so much, but now, it's just a 616 feeder, editorial realizes that it's not going to achieve it's former glory... I hope they realize that they're the ones that screwed it up.

 

[Aristotle]

For what it's worth, I'd rather have Ultimate Spidey's rehashes than the cluster**** that is 616 Spidey.

 

[PhotoJones]

It's sort of funny. I notice if I go away, he comes around very frequently, and when I come back, he all but dissapears.

Do you think that sort of obsession is healthy?

And that denim jacket best have been ripped, yo. *Is learning slang. n.n*

Pfft. My denim jackets are always ripped.

Same here, bro, same here, except I was 14!

Whoa. By the time I was 14, I was smoking behind the school and skipping class.

 

[Darthphere]

So does anyone want to tell me what I'm doing that's pissing everyone off, aside from taking a minority viewpoint on cherished sacred cows of comic book fandom?

You're arrogant, you have a very condescending attitude, and you really do think you're smarter than what you really are. Other than that, you're an ok dude.

 

[MattXG]

If you read the first few runs of Ultimate Spiderman, X-men, and Fantastic Four and compare them to their more recent runs you may see what I'm talking about. I stopped reading the Ultimate line all together so i don't know if the Ultimates is still good or not.

To me the Ultimate line was originally was a remake of 616 and a more streamlined more realistic approach to super hero comics. Now it just seems to be a parody of 616.

Actually, I think the Ultimate Universe is as good now as it ever was...

I like where UXM is going. I like where Ultimate Spider-Man is at now. I like Ultimates 3 (in fact I'm glad it isn't so political anymore). I've never been a steady reader of UFF so...

I recall them saying over and over Ultimate is a retelling of the 616 for the modern reader. I don't remember them saying Ultimate is going to be hyper-realistic. You do realize these are books with people that can fly and shoot laser beams out of their eyes right?

Its so hard being a fan of the Ultimate universe because everyone EXPECTS it to be something different. I don't understand why people can't stop EXPECTING it to be something and just accept what it is?

 

[Aristotle]

You're arrogant, you have a very condescending attitude, and you really do think you're smarter than what you really are. Other than that, you're an ok dude.

How does any of that separate me from you, PhotoJones, and BrianWilly? I don't even dislike you guys (although PhotoJones reacted REMARKABLY strongly to my rather tame Stan Lee remark.) It just seems that for certain people, arrogance, condescension, and an inflated ego are the marks of leadership, while for others they draw ire. That's a double standard.

For the record, and I'm sure you'll just write this off as more arrogance, I am pretty smart. I'm a National Merit scholar, based on PSATs and SATs that I never studied once for. I've studied European, American, and Middle Eastern history, theology, philosophy, psychology, and sociology, all somewhat extensively, along with a smattering of art and literature, which is why I bring them up in conversations. I bring them up because they apply, not because I'm trying to prove how smart I am.

When I want to show how smart I am, I get snide.

 

[Aristotle]

I like Ultimates 3 (in fact I'm glad it isn't so political anymore).

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the Ultimate books work when there's a POINT to them, an overarching theme or grand design. Ultimates 1 and 2 had a political point to make. Ultimate Spider-Man used to have a point, I think. Ultimate Fantastic Four, Ultimates 3, Ultimate Spidey nowadays? Not so much, and no one should be surprised in the least that they're suddenly not as fun to read.

Honestly, that could be extrapolated to any superhero book, really. Compare Robinson's Starman, Johns' Green Lantern, Sandman Mystery Theatre, JSA, Morrison's JLA, Waid's JLA, Aztek, Chronos, Resurrection Man, Anarky, etc., with the standard superhero comic-book fare, and you'll see the point. But it's especially true for the Ultimates, because there's literally no other reason for them to exist except to have a point.

Its so hard being a fan of the Ultimate universe because everyone EXPECTS it to be something different. I don't understand why people can't stop EXPECTING it to be something and just accept what it is?

People expect it to be different because it HAS to be different. There is NO reason to care about Ultimate Spidey inherently, because we're all so much more emotionally invested in 616 Spidey. ****, I HATE Spider-Man, and I'm emotionally invested in him, just because of the long shadow that he and his ilk have cast over comicdom. So I'm much more likely to care about One More Day, inherently, than I am to care about ANYTHING that EVER happens to Ultimate Spider-Man. You gotta give me a reason to care about some shoddy knockoff Spidey before I invest my time, my money, and myself into reading about it.

 

[Darthphere]

How does any of that separate me from you, PhotoJones, and BrianWilly? I don't even dislike you guys (although PhotoJones reacted REMARKABLY strongly to my rather tame Stan Lee remark.) It just seems that for certain people, arrogance, condescension, and an inflated ego are the marks of leadership, while for others they draw ire. That's a double standard.

For the record, and I'm sure you'll just write this off as more arrogance, I am pretty smart. I'm a National Merit scholar, based on PSATs and SATs that I never studied once for. I've studied European, American, and Middle Eastern history, theology, philosophy, psychology, and sociology, all somewhat extensively, along with a smattering of art and literature, which is why I bring them up in conversations. I bring them up because they apply, not because I'm trying to prove how smart I am.

When I want to show how smart I am, I get snide.

I was kidding.

 

[Aristotle]

I was kidding.

Ah, forgive me, I thought we could have an actual mature conversation to settle our differences.

 

[Darthphere]

Ah, forgive me, I thought we could have an actual mature conversation to settle our differences.

I already said you were an ok dude.

 

[Aristotle]

I already said you were an ok dude.

I thought you said you were kidding...? OK, I think I get what you meant now. Sorry. Misinterpreted. I think there's a lot of that going on. Even Batman's confused in your post.

 

[Darthphere]

I thought you said you were kidding...? OK, I think I get what you meant now. Sorry. Misinterpreted. I think there's a lot of that going on. Even Batman's confused in your post.

Confused in the way where he thinks he's straight but he's not?

 

[stillanerd]

The way I see it, the Ultimate line akin to sweet and sugary cereal that has lasted far past it's expiration date. Oh, sure, the early issues of Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men were pretty decent, and Ultimates under Mark Millar, political posturing not-withstanding, was a far better portrayal of the Avengers than what we were getting in 616.

However, I think it's quite apparent that the creators never intended for the Ultimate line to last as long as it has. Remember, at the time it was created back in 2000, two of Marvel's hottest properties--Spider-Man and X-Men--were floundering pretty badly after the wake of the 1990s and with new movies on the horizon, they needed something to revitalize interest in them. By marketing them as "21st Century takes on classic heroes," without the burden of continuity, with top-tier talent, a format more in line with the trade paperback market, and targeting younger readers (although that last part was certainly questionable) it was a winning formula and became quite popular even with older fans. There was even talk that the Ultimate line should replace the 616 it was that successful.

But then, Marvel got it's act together in 2002 by putting JMS and John Romita Jr. on Amazing Spider-Man, and giving Grant Morrison his own X-Men comic. Suddenly, people were focused on the "real" Marvel Universe again. Sure, there have been ups and downs, but the focus has generally shifted off the Ultimate universe and is focused squarely on 616. Also, the Ultimate line has become a victim of having a convoluted continuity of its own--which is bound to happen after 7 years. Ultimate Spider-Man, for example, is still the best of the Ultimate lines, but it's drifted away from the concept of a "modern version of Spider-Man" to essentially a version of "Marvel Team-Up staring Spider-Man," with far too many of its stories being entwined way too much in conspiracies involving S.H.I.E.L.D. and organized crime, and many of the supporting cast that is so essential to the Spidey mythos--especially J. Jonah Jameson and others at the Daily Bugle--are sidelined as a result, which has been the same exact problem that has been plaguing Spider-Man over in 616. Also, the Ultimate line was a showcase for particular creators own take on Marvel characters. Look what happened to Ultimate X-Men as soon as Mark Millar left the writing chores: it's never had quite the same success as it once did.

Sooner or later, I imagine that the Ultimate line is going to be gradually phased out. This will become obvious once we get the first crossover of the 616 Universe meeting their Ultimate counterparts, most likely as part of a "Crisis on Infinite Earths--Marvel style" event. After all, Marvel is going to favor its original universe over an alternate one any day of the week, but they're also going to make sure they're going to milk as much of it as they can before it eventually falls by the wayside.

 

[Themanofbat]

Hahahahahahaa.... five years ago, when I was talking about the Ultimate line being eliminated down the road, I was laughed at by every "comic book pro" at the Hype... and now everybody's doing it.

Face it... I'm 5 years ahead of my time...

 

[stillanerd]

Hahahahahahaa.... five years ago, when I was talking about the Ultimate line being eliminated down the road, I was laughed at by every "comic book pro" at the Hype... and now everybody's doing it.

Face it... I'm 5 years ahead of my time...

Well, you know that prophecy is only effective until after the fact.t:

But I know what you mean. I remember mentioning not so long ago (about a year ago as opposed to your five--I'm not so ahead of my time, it seems. ) that I thought the Ultimate line had, at the most, perhaps five years left to go before it would be shoved to the wayside in favor of the original 616 comics and I kept getting responses like how Marvel wouldn't be stupid enough to cancel a successful line because it was selling more than it's 616 counterparts--which was true when it first started but not now. And when I pointed out how the sales figures of Ultimate were declining, they dismissed it as "Well that's only monthly sales. What about the trade paperback market?" And like I said, Ultimate Marvel was created because, at the time, the regular Marvel Universe comics were in stagnation. I know I usually bash the current status quo at 616 Marvel, but I'm not blind enough to see that more folks are far more interested in what happens in 616 than are with regards to the Ultimate Marvel line. And the dirty little secret is, they've always have been.

 

[Cadetak]

I remember when people here use to talk about how The Ultimate Universe was going to replace 616 as the standard.

 

[Havok83]

X-men definetly has. WAY too many 616 similiarities now

 

[gildea]

When I want to show how smart I am, I get snide.

Snide = Intelligence?

Dear me that's silly.


Anyway with Jeph Loeb's ultimates it has officially jumped the shark.

Sure Ult FF is decent enough unfortunately no one cares.

Ult X is actually quite well written but still living in the shadow of BKV's run and that constant nagging feeling that it's just going through the motions.

Ult Spidey is STILL the best spidey book on the market thouugh.



So solution is simple. Cancel all titles but keep ult spidey going til issue 200 then retire gracefully into the night.

 

[Kitsune]

How does any of that separate me from you, PhotoJones, and BrianWilly? I don't even dislike you guys (although PhotoJones reacted REMARKABLY strongly to my rather tame Stan Lee remark.) It just seems that for certain people, arrogance, condescension, and an inflated ego are the marks of leadership, while for others they draw ire. That's a double standard.

For the record, and I'm sure you'll just write this off as more arrogance, I am pretty smart. I'm a National Merit scholar, based on PSATs and SATs that I never studied once for. I've studied European, American, and Middle Eastern history, theology, philosophy, psychology, and sociology, all somewhat extensively, along with a smattering of art and literature, which is why I bring them up in conversations. I bring them up because they apply, not because I'm trying to prove how smart I am.

When I want to show how smart I am, I get snide.

I was Academic All State and National Merit, and I've been a member of Mensa.... and I don't have the same attitude you do. We can whip out our IQs all day long, but we can only really judge you on what you post. While I have no doubt that I've have posted my share of boneheaded statements, I'd like to think that I'm not supercilious about it.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Whatever happened to Whirlysplat, anyway? The last time I saw him around, he was using a dummy account (Dexterfan, or something) to agree with his points.

That is shocking.He joined my own domain,but never used his account.Here is a link to a more recent Ultimate Universe thread,that i thought was pretty good.