Why Can't DC Get it right?

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

If you want to fanrage about something you could start by getting the name of the character correct.

Then again, that could be the ultimate disrespect to a character... I always thought Nathan Summyrs was a boring character.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

If you want to fanrage about something you could start by getting the name of the character correct.

I wouldn't exactly consider it not knowing the name, just not knowing "how to spell" the name

difference

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I think Hal has personality not as much as Guy or Kyle but he isnt some stiff. Or least he hasnt been since his return

No... he's just been turned into a Mary Sue who is the most awesome, bad ass and heroic character in the entire DCU. The whole thing with him going mental back in the day was totally unique and interesting. It was never before seen that a superhero actually failed to save his city, then went rogue to get enough power to reverse what happened. But oh no it was retconned so it wasn't his fault! He was possessed by some yellow bug!

IMO his treatment recently is just professional fan fiction.

 

[MadVillainy]

...ok
1. You didn't say what was wrong with Hal's personality in that post
2. All the things that you stated were about his character arc. And while I do agree that The bug Parallax is lame it doesnt have to do with how he is an "uncharismatic, less likable version of Maverick from Top Gun."
3. Isn't any storyline made by another writer after the creator's original stories technically "professional fan fiction"?

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think he means that Johns has the mentality of a fangirl and it just so happens to love his Silver Age heroes. So much that he brought Hal back from the dead and banished Kyle away from earth. Then, when DC asked him to bring Barry back (i heard they wanted to do this for a long time now) he was happy to oblige, and guess what, Barry even became a ****ing lantern during Blackest Night!

I mean, its one thing to kill Bruce or Clark, but the GLs and Flashes are more of team heroes, its not a mantle tied to just one man. Both Hal and Barry were replaced for years now and people loved their replacements. But nooooo... Lets bring those relics back and banish the new guys cause we got some more stories to tell about them. Are people tired of Kyle? Fine, bring some other guy in. Dont bring Hal back and make him a Mary Sue.

As for Parallax, i love the emotional spectrum and all the entities, but maybe they shouldnt have changed what happened to Hal. In other words i like Parallax, but i'd rather it shouldnt have been the reason behind Hal's madness.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Bringing back Hal and Barry were safer bets for DC, since there's already a following for the both of them. It wouldn't surprise me if DC wanted Johns to make them "bigger" to bring in new readers for not only those two characters, but the titles altogether, since they've never been as big as Superman and Batman. Both Rebirths were big events, and even if some people who read them and didn't like the Silver Age heroes, they could grow interest in the other characters who held the name Flash and Green Lantern.

 

[Docker2.0]

Well the reason Hal came back was because of the movie, no question. The same reason you saw Spidey back in black for that weak reason in the 616, the same reason you see the big 3 back together in the 616, and the same reason Bruce Wayne will be back in the cowl before Batman3..........money and movie tie ins=$$$.

 

[MadVillainy]

I think he means that Johns has the mentality of a fangirl and it just so happens to love his Silver Age heroes. So much that he brought Hal back from the dead and banished Kyle away from earth. Then, when DC asked him to bring Barry back (i heard they wanted to do this for a long time now) he was happy to oblige, and guess what, Barry even became a ****ing lantern during Blackest Night!

Don't get me started on Barry. What makes him so interesting to people is beyond me. Basically his story is: Nothing really bad happened to me except I was late alot and then I got struck by lightning and now I became a hero. Oh wait I forgot because of the retcon his dad killed his mom (until it was revealed that it was really Prof. Zoom), which is funny because Geoff Johns already used that same angle with Hunter Zolomon.

I mean, its one thing to kill Bruce or Clark, but the GLs and Flashes are more of team heroes, its not a mantle tied to just one man. Both Hal and Barry were replaced for years now and people loved their replacements. But nooooo... Lets bring those relics back and banish the new guys cause we got some more stories to tell about them. Are people tired of Kyle? Fine, bring some other guy in. Dont bring Hal back and make him a Mary Sue.

As for Parallax, i love the emotional spectrum and all the entities, but maybe they shouldnt have changed what happened to Hal. In other words i like Parallax, but i'd rather it shouldnt have been the reason behind Hal's madness.

I do agree that other characters have been riding Barry and Hal hard. Wally I can understand because he grew up loving those guys, but Garrick saying "Barry Allen made me Flash" and other characters treating Barry/Hal like their gods is ridiculous. I do prefer Hal to Kyle just because I like his story arc/supporting characters more, but it is messed up how they curbed Kyle being his own man with his own supporting characters and lumped him with other GLs. I'm afraid they're going to do that with Wally/Bart too.
And I agree about Parallax

Well the reason Hal came back was because of the movie, no question.

I'm not so sure. Rebirth happened 04/early 05. According to sources Corey Reynolds was working on a GL film starring John Stewart. ANd also around that time wasnt JL:M being worked with Stewart as the GL?
I'm not saying it's 100% true that they didn't bring Hal back for the movie that could have factored in it to but I think it was also just because of the Silver Age love from Johns and DiDio or maybe it was the sales of the GL book at the time. But I really don't think (especially given WB/DC track record with non Batman/Superman movies) that they brought Hal back in 04/05 for a movie that didn't start being written until 07

 

[The Batman]

I like how Mr Earle completely failed to mention that several characters, including lex luthor and wonder woman, were turned into ring bearers during blackest night. But then, why say the whole truth while you're trying to prove a point?

I also like how all these Kyle fanboys are the ones talking about how making Hal parallax is a good idea, when they were probably the ones who whined about when it happened to Kyle too. Fact is, making Hal evil was a crappy idea, and completely out of character, not to mention a slap in the face. People talk about writers doing fan fiction? The whole thing was "ooooh, lets write the heroic hal jordan as a villain, then replace him with the cool new awesome guy I just made up!"

The reason why the "Relics" are back is because DC decided they actually wanted Flash and GL comics to sell. Kyle's GL book was mid level at best, especially when the shock of Hal's departure finally wore off. Wally was ruined after Infinite Crisis, after they tried to replace him with bart, and after Wally's return under mark waid flopped. Kyle and Wally became damaged goods, and it was easier to bring back iconic characters....and the sales prove this.

I mean, it should tell you something that a GL movie finally got the greenlight after Hal's return....and I wouldnt be surprised if The Flash got on the fasttrack after the success of the new Barry book. It's like Blitzkrieg said...bringing back old characters and making them relevant is a better sell.

 

[MadVillainy]

And since I don't want to get really off topic like with the whole Green Arrow thing. I'm going to try and tie my Flash comments in with the actual topic


Back in 2004 they had a Wally West Flash film in the works and at the same time the JL cartoon w/Wally West was still going on*. Around that time they had a less popular probably not as expensive Ryan Reynolds expressing interests in the role. Fans also seemed to like Reynolds for the role. This was the perfect time to release a Flash movie. Flash was on TV and was one of the stand out characters due to his humor, they had an up and coming star interested, and they had a script that featured Barry and Wally. Of course 3 years later Goyer left and the project fell through

Now they're putting Barry in the film and Wally will be lucky to be introduced not to mention Jay or Bart. And we're going to miss out on the whole family aspect of the Flash. And we're getting a character who in all honestly isn't bringing anything new to the superhero film genre besides a power that hasnt really been explored. People are always complaining about how their isnt enough originality in Hollywood and everyone priased the first Iron Man for being new, different, etc. and we're going to get a generic origin film.
Clark is shy, reserved, from a humble upbringing, and IMO the most normal. Bruce feels the need to hide who he truly is from people. Diana and John feel out of place. Hal is angry. Ollie pays more attention to blue collar problems than other heroes. What does Barry bring? Not much. He's the same in the costume as he is out, he's reserved I don't see how that is so interesting



*And that's another thing about this rant: WB/DC dropped the ball by not releasing any non Batman/Superman solo films when JL/JLU was on the air and interests in them was higher.

The reason why the "Relics" are back is because DC decided they actually wanted Flash and GL comics to sell. Kyle's GL book was mid level at best, especially when the shock of Hal's departure finally wore off. Wally was ruined after Infinite Crisis, after they tried to replace him with bart, and after Wally's return under mark waid flopped. Kyle and Wally became damaged goods, and it was easier to bring back iconic characters....and the sales prove this.

I mean, it should tell you something that a GL movie finally got the greenlight after Hal's return....and I wouldnt be surprised if The Flash got on the fasttrack after the success of the new Barry book. It's like Blitzkrieg said...bringing back old characters and making them relevant is a better sell.

1. So your saying if Barry or Hal's book ever dip in sales they should bring back iconic characters like say Jay Garrick and Alan Scott to headline?
2. I dont see how bringing back old characters is helping the film. Besides Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne the GA barely knows that there are multiple Green Lanterns and Flashes. D you hear GA film goers going "Hey Barry and Hal are back that means we can get a proper Flash and GL film. Isn't it swell!" In fact most my friends (who are GA) have complained that the GL in the film isnt John Stewart...but thats just because they watched JL

 

[Docker2.0]

Agreed BM! Say what you want to say, but I'd prefer a world's finest over a GL movie at that time. Now I'm all for GL.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I love Barry because of the fact he doesn't have a tragic origin. He's one of those few guys who started fighting crime just because it was the right thing to do. Compare him to Peter Parker, who only wanted to use his powers originally for fame, and Pete seems a real selfish jerk. It wasn't until Uncle Ben got shot where Peter put things in perspective.

Barry eats humble pie for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Being a superhero to him is just like having a second job. Again, he just does it because he has a strong belief in right and wrong, and that the guilty should be punished. But the city loves him so much they built a museum in his honor, what irony. Even Superman doesn't have his own museum erected in his honor.

1. So your saying if Barry or Hal's book ever dip in sales they should bring back iconic characters like say Jay Garrick and Alan Scott to headline?

I imagine they'll do a reversal and bring back Wally and Kyle. But that may not be seen for a while, due to the possible success of the movies.

2. I dont see how bringing back old characters is helping the film.

It's because sales are up. Issue number 1 of both Rebirths had 4 printings. Johns has had a huge run with Green Lantern, and his Flash is just starting up. It's clear WB will want to play catch up with Marvel, and the more interest in their characters means that they'll want to strike while the iron is hot. It's not so much that the old characters resurgences are helping it out, it's the money they're making off of them.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I like how Mr Earle completely failed to mention that several characters, including lex luthor and wonder woman, were turned into ring bearers during blackest night. But then, why say the whole truth while you're trying to prove a point?

I also like how all these Kyle fanboys are the ones talking about how making Hal parallax is a good idea, when they were probably the ones who whined about when it happened to Kyle too. Fact is, making Hal evil was a crappy idea, and completely out of character, not to mention a slap in the face. People talk about writers doing fan fiction? The whole thing was "ooooh, lets write the heroic hal jordan as a villain, then replace him with the cool new awesome guy I just made up!"

The reason why the "Relics" are back is because DC decided they actually wanted Flash and GL comics to sell. Kyle's GL book was mid level at best, especially when the shock of Hal's departure finally wore off. Wally was ruined after Infinite Crisis, after they tried to replace him with bart, and after Wally's return under mark waid flopped. Kyle and Wally became damaged goods, and it was easier to bring back iconic characters....and the sales prove this.

I mean, it should tell you something that a GL movie finally got the greenlight after Hal's return....and I wouldnt be surprised if The Flash got on the fasttrack after the success of the new Barry book. It's like Blitzkrieg said...bringing back old characters and making them relevant is a better sell.

I'm not a Kyle fan. It's funny how fans of Hal automatically assume haters of Hal hate him simply because he came back and it led to Kyle getting shat on.

I dislike Hal because he is a crap character IMO. Like i've said a billion times before... you take away his GL ring and the awesome GL mythos and give him some generic power like superstrength... he'd be nothing. Why? Because he is the very personification of "powers over personality".

And Hal didn't go evil in Emerald Twilight. He went insane, there is a difference.

It was out of character, but that was the point. It showed that this great, great hero, whose biggest strength is his willpower, can still be brought to his knees, can still snap after a truly traumatic event. I mean, having this great power such as the GL ring, but not being able to stop your entire home city beiing destroyed along with friends and family, that has gotta mess with your mind. It was a completely unique and bold storyline and actually came close to giving Hal Jordan a unique character other than the cardboard cut out/cookie cutter superhero cliche character he had before it.

 

[Drz]

And Hal didn't go evil in Emerald Twilight. He went insane, there is a difference.

Because killing the entire GLC while being insane, sure doesn't reek of evil.

 

[Docker2.0]

Ace is right. Huge difference between going insane and going evil. Going insane just kinda happened.

 

[Hound55]

Because killing the entire GLC while being insane, sure doesn't reek of evil.

Ah, so crazy people are evil now..? That's good to know...

Its little wonder you side with Johns and that whole arc leaves a bad taste in your mouth...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

No it reeks of being insane and misguided. He didn't kill them simply because he felt like it. He killed them to get their rings so he could amass enough power to alter reality, so he could bring back Coast City and his loved ones.

Really, he thought it was for a noble cause. He thought he was doing the right thing. That proves he was insane. Insane people don't think they are doing anything wrong.

And like i said, i can understand why he snapped. I mean, he just witnessed his entire home city being destroyed. He just witnessed everyone he ever cared for be destroyed. A traumatic event like that can change anyone. Basically, Hal Jordan had a serious case of post traumatic stress syndrome.

The event could of been used to make him even stronger and show that his willpower is unwavering through anything... but they decided not to go that route because it would of been cliche and nothing new. They had the balls to do something totally unique and relevent to the idea of soldiers/people going mad after being put through traumatic experiences.

The people who don't like that storyline don't like it simply because they don't like that he was shown to be human and fallable. The argument against it of it being against his character is a weak one. Because i'm sure a honorable soldier going nuts and killing some civilians is against his character... but he obviously went through a terrible, horrific experience which changed his character.

 

[Rumpy Bulge Dubz]

No it reeks of being insane and misguided. He didn't kill them simply because he felt like it. He killed them to get their rings so he could amass enough power to alter reality, so he could bring back Coast City and his loved ones.

Really, he thought it was for a noble cause. He thought he was doing the right thing. That proves he was insane. Insane people don't think they are doing anything wrong.

truth

 

[Hound55]

No it reeks of being insane and misguided. He didn't kill them simply because he felt like it. He killed them to get their rings so he could amass enough power to alter reality, so he could bring back Coast City and his loved ones.

Really, he thought it was for a noble cause. He thought he was doing the right thing. That proves he was insane. Insane people don't think they are doing anything wrong.

I would say its no less insane than the heroes who sided with f***ing with Dr Light's head after he raped Sue Dibny...

Anyone he killed and anything he damaged he would have felt he could return and restore when and if he succeeded in harnassing ultimate power over the rings...

He felt the ends justified the means.

As I said in the other topic... his will wasn't broken, his motivations were twisted.

 

[Hound55]

The people who don't like that storyline don't like it simply because they don't like that he was shown to be human and fallable.

BING!

And they justify it as being out of character when its really nothing of the sort...

 

[Drz]

Ah, so crazy people are evil now..? That's good to know...

Are you telling me people such as Arkham Inmates are good people? Can you name a single DC character who is confirmed to be crazy and is a good guy? Batman is determined, but he hasn't been shown as crazy since what? Very early 90s comics where writers tried to copy TDKR+Killing Joke? You know? The badly written grimdark comics of the 90s.

 

[Hound55]

Considering its full name is the Elizabeth Arkham Asylum for the Criminally Insane do you really think that that is the best and fairest example for drawing connections between insanity and evil?

 

[Mr. Earle]

Don't get me started on Barry. What makes him so interesting to people is beyond me. Basically his story is: Nothing really bad happened to me except I was late alot and then I got struck by lightning and now I became a hero.

A hero doesnt have to be born of tragedy. Its a huge cliche. However from the little i know about him i concur that he's boring.

Garrick saying "Barry Allen made me Flash" and other characters treating Barry/Hal like their gods is ridiculous.

You mean Scott said that and yes, its not just ridiculous, its rage inducing to the point of Atrocitus inviting you to his corps.

I like how Mr Earle completely failed to mention that several characters, including lex luthor and wonder woman, were turned into ring bearers during blackest night. But then, why say the whole truth while you're trying to prove a point?

I didnt hide the truth intentionally. It was a stupid concept to begin with and even stupider that Barry was instantly a huge player in both FC and BN. You'd think that he'd need some time getting used to things, but he was all "hey Wally, follow me and let me show you how its done because Johns love me better!"

I also like how all these Kyle fanboys are the ones talking about how making Hal parallax is a good idea, when they were probably the ones who whined about when it happened to Kyle too.

With Kyle it was only a matter of days and he didnt murder the whole universe, whereas it was a HUGE event in Hal's life. Of course if Kyle can get rid of the parasite in a matter of days, Hal is teh bestest so he can do it in minutes in BN. Take that Kyle!

/sarcasm for Johns

Fact is, making Hal evil was a crappy idea, and completely out of character, not to mention a slap in the face.

Of course, losing your mind and becoming a deranged murderous psychopath is out of character. If people kept their character traits after going psycho, they wouldnt have gone mad to begin with.

The reason why the "Relics" are back is because DC decided they actually wanted Flash and GL comics to sell. Kyle's GL book was mid level at best, especially when the shock of Hal's departure finally wore off. Wally was ruined after Infinite Crisis, after they tried to replace him with bart, and after Wally's return under mark waid flopped. Kyle and Wally became damaged goods, and it was easier to bring back iconic characters....and the sales prove this.

The fact of the matter is that GL sells so well because of Blackest Night and the introduction of the Power Rang... em... Emotional Spectrum. I doubt it had anything to do with Hal.

 

[Drz]

Considering its full name is the Elizabeth Arkham Asylum for the Criminally Insane do you really think that that is the best and fairest example for drawing connections between insanity and evil?

Hal Jordan would fit right into a space Arkham Asylum if he was to be captured during the 90s. I mean what Hal did was wrong and evil, are you telling me Joker's reasons for mass murder are justified because he had 1 bad day? Like Hal Jordan did?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Who said Joker had one bad day? For all we know he was making that tragic origin up just to **** with Gordon, Batmans and our minds. He even hints at it.