Ahh, no, you misunderstand me. I was only referring to dropping the specific part where I keep saying "Correct" and you keep saying "Incorrect." I was saying we should just concede that each one of us is going to keep saying that over and over and we should drop that particular part cause it would get kinda tedious just repeating the same words over and over.
Well with all due respect there are several elements to this discussion that are being repeated over and over. That is just one of several. If it is getting tedious to you then you're free to drop any of those elements of the discussion you're finding tedious.
Yes, me also. I'm enjoying the conversation very much. It's nice to have a level-headed chat with someone. I hate it when people get emotional and start name-calling or just being childish.
Thank you. I quite agree.
But the person that died in the fire did need Peter to have his powers. That is what I was getting at...his powers come back when he needs them i.e. MJ in danger, but not when other people need him.
But Peter was unaware someone else was in there. He was only aware there was a child in there:
Peter: "Is anyone in that building?"
Black man: "We think there's a kid stuck on the second floor"
He did not learn about the unfortunate person who died until afterwards when the firemen had put out the blaze and found their body.
People in the bank or those on street were potentially in danger. It's quite possible people could have been injured or worse from Ock thrashing around. Go back to your previous post where you said "Ock was attacking the bank and endangering lives."
Potentially in danger from dying from Ock throwing a bag of coins at Spider-Man? Because that was the only time during the entire fight sequence where they failed him. And only for a moment.
According to your previous argument, his powers would return when someone was in danger. A man being beaten up by two other men classifies as someone in danger, imo. Peter's failure to act is an entirely different story. I'll cover that one in a bit again though.
I stand by that argument. Peter did not try to act so you cannot say with any certainty that his powers would not have returned if he tried to take on those muggers to save that man. You're just making a baseless assumption.
Or maybe since there were two of them and the person being mugged was a smaller guy in stature, they'd rather just beat the crap outta him instead of pulling a weapon on him. I'm sure Peter could think of a few times where he was being bullied because of his stature or whatever. The point about them possibly being armed in some fashion is a smart assumption. In my experience and education I will tell you that you should always assume someone is carrying. It's a standard in the line of safety. You'd be unwise to assume differently.
That's bullying you're talking about, not mugging. Muggers don't rely on fisticuffs unless they have to. Especially if there's two of them. Usually muggers mug in pairs because they don't have a weapon to threaten with so they use brute force to force someone to hand over their valuables. Logically it's safe to assume that's what was happening in this instance.
There is no sense in going to all the effort of trying to beat someone up for their money when you can get off them quicker and easier by simply brandishing a knife or gun.
Let me make this clear since it's coming across "jaded." I understand the point the movie is attempting to make with Peter and feeling guilty about his lack of responsibility. It's attempting to paint a picture of Peter acting in a selfish manner. I totally get that. I...just...don't think it was executed well. At all. In fact, for me, it had the reverse effect. His error was one of complete gross negligence and it wasn't just him being irresponsible or selfish, he was ignoring the now totally cemented mantra of GPcGR. This is essentially the exact same scenario in which Ben died. A man wanted to take something from Ben and he said No. Ben was killed. Only difference here is that Peter is witnessing the event as it is happening and he could actually step in and make a difference. That's the whole basis for why he became Spider-Man in the first place--to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen to anyone else. And he's standing right in front of it! But he does nothing. Erroneous. I get what they were going for with Peter but imo this was a truly terrible way to show it.
Once again that is the point. Peter is turning his back on his responsibility. Of course Peter could step in and do something. But he doesn't. You're right it is negligent and selfish. The movie is not implying otherwise. That's why Peter looks so guilty and upset when he turns away.
That is not a terrible way to show Peter has turned his back and is being irresponsible. That was the lesson of the character, and it was mirrored with Doc Ock's conceptually. Both of them were being irresponsible to get their dreams, in Peter's case a happy carefree life. The movie doesn't make Doc Ock's evil actions seem any more righteous than it does to Peter's selfish ones like the one we're discussing.
I'm not sure, man. I'm no writer. I am only able to judge what I see in the final product.
Given how passionate you are on this point I felt sure you'd have had some idea on how it should have been done.
Never mind. I was just curious on what you wanted to see.
If you remember during the dream sequence with Uncle Ben, Peter makes no mention of all the things that are ailing him and the supposed reasons for him quitting being Spider-Man. The first thing he says it that he is in love with MJ. That's his reason for wanting a normal life.
Yes because the power loss was covered in the doctor's scene just before the Uncle Ben scene. The doctor suggested he's not meant to be Spider-Man and that's why he keeps falling. The scene ends with Peter saying he has a choice, then the Uncle Ben scenes picks up with Uncle Ben saying all the things he's been thinking about make him sad, that he's been given a gift, and with great power comes great responsibility. To which Peter replies no he's just Peter Parker now. He's Spider-Man no more.
I understand the movie was not condoning his actions. It's just the actions themselves that I take an issue with and the fact that his powers only seem to come back when MJ is in danger. When they should have returned when others were in danger or when he was consciously willing them back. But they didn't. If they depicted Peter's guilt in another manner, I probably wouldn't have such a problem with it.
But that is where you're wrong. His powers always come back when he needs them. They did not fail him when saving Aunt May. They did not fail him at Ock's demonstration. They did not fail him when he saved the train. They came back when Ock came back and took MJ because he could not possibly have saved her without them. That's common sense.
Peter asking Ock once was all that was needed. We didn't need to hear him ask over and over again. We know the basis for why they are fighting. The audience understands at this point that Spidey needs to subdue Ock in order to get the info he needs. Ock has no intention of giving it up willfully. I guess we could also say this is yet another example of how Tobey's Spider-Man is labeled a mute.
Well if you agree he only needed to ask once then why would you think he was fighting him to try to get him to talk? He already asked Ock when they met, and Ock didn't tell him.
Supposing you were right and he was trying to get Ock to talk, why did he not pursue Ock when he abandoned the train after ripping out the brakes since this was in your mind all about MJ?
He saved those people like he saved the others that Ock threw from the train moments beforehand. It's like a game of chess and Ock has Peter's king on the run. Ock gained the upperhand cause he found Peter's weakness. Peter did the right thing here, thankfully but his powers being intact had resurfaced because of MJ, not because of the people in danger on the train.
That is more foolishness. There was nothing chess like about saving civilians Ock threw off the train. It was Spider-Man doing what he always does. Saving lives.
Going by your argument saving these civilians wouldn't have helped him get any closer to saving MJ. So why did he do it? It's because that's what he does. He's a hero. It was not about MJ.
It would have been better realized had it gone like this. The fight is proceeding as normal and at some point, suddenly, Peter's powers begin to fade for a moment. Maybe he fires some webbing but it doesn't go off or maybe he starts to get that vertigo feeling again. Then, Ock dismantles the train's controls and jumps off. At that moment, Peter is like NO and then jumps to the front of the train his powers now stronger than ever. Because he sees the people in danger. IMO, that would have worked out much better and I think the audience would have a greater appreciation for Peter in that instance.
Why would that have been better? He had already consciously decided to be Spider-Man several scenes earlier. As previously demonstrated his powers do not fail him when he is saving lives. They didn't fail at Ock's demonstration. They didn't fail when he saved Aunt May. They didn't fail when he saved the train.
The only time the glitch is when he himself is in any physical danger like when he fell out of the sky, or when Ock was throwing bags of coins at him.
I feel like we're going in circles. Someone died in the burning building yet his powers did not come back for them. A guy was getting mugged and that didn't bring back his powers, someone needed him then too. The only time his powers came back when someone needed him was when MJ was in danger. I'd argue Aunt May too but his powers at the bank faltered long before her involvement. It was just a glitch, but it's still there.
He was unaware there was someone else in the burning building. He did not act to save the guy from the muggers so there's no basis to say his powers would have failed him if he had decided to act.
The only time his powers ever failed him was he himself was in physical peril. Never when others were and needed him.
I disagree. The point was being made but it was poorly executed.
I still do not see how it was poorly executed.
But the people on the train didn't come until much later. The reason his powers were there and stayed there is because MJ was in danger. Even when those people on the train were in danger, MJ's still in danger. That's his whole reasons for getting his powers back. Now, if something happened like I stated above, I think it would have worked out better to showcase how his powers may go but they'll come back when people need him.
This makes no sense. The people on the train had nothing to do with MJ. He could have left them and pursued Ock to find out where she is because wearing himself out into exhaustion and unconsciousness saving those people would not bring him to MJ.
This is where your argument collapses. If the train rescue was somehow connected to MJ I would agree with you, but it wasn't.
No it's about his powers returning when they're needed.
If his powers came back, again, like I said, he would have made that jump. He could have used his webs. It was luck that saved him. The clothesline slowed his fall and when he did fall he was still injured enough that he could barely walk upright. If he'd landed on his head, it would have been a different story. It would have been Peter Parker No More. lol. People have fallen from heigths like this and walked away without any broken bones. It is a possibility. But his powers did not come back in that instance. They never showed it happening.
Did you see him make any attempt to shoot any webbing when he was falling? I did not. No amount of luck could save someone from falling of a building that high and walking away with nothing more than a back ache. His powers saved him, just like they saved him when he fell out of the sky and landed on those metal pipes on the roof.
Ok, but he apparently doesn't get his powers back until she is kidnapped. He consciously decides to take up the mantle again to be Spider-Man and his powers don't return. Why not?
His powers did return. If he had been powerless he would have been a blood splat on the street when he made that roof jump.
C'mon man, seriously? All three of the Raimi movies are totally centered around Peter and his desire for MJ. "It's all about a girl." It's the biggest reason for him losing his powers. That's what he tells Uncle Ben. You can't possibly be ignoring this fact...the entire Raimi trilogy has everything to do with how much Peter wants to be with MJ. The final scene of SM3 proves that--their relationship is headed towards reconciliation.
You are ignoring that he also told Uncle Ben that he wants a life of his own. It was not just about wanting to be with MJ. Of course that is part of it. But it is not what it is all about. In fact what are the things you see him do once he throws his Spider-Man costume away? Living a normal life. Going to college, studying, fixing his bicycle, doing normal things like strolling down the street and buying hot dogs. He doesn't attempt a reconciliation with MJ until later.
Disagree. I mean, sure, all the Spider-Man movies have some flawed writing to certain degrees. ASM2 included. There's plenty to find at fault here in ASM2 with the writing but not this part. It was done well imo. I guess different strokes and all that.
If Peter had legitimate reason to feel guilt, like he did with Uncle Ben's death, I would say it was done well. But Peter had no reason for guilt. Gwen chose her own fate. Once again I must stress that she even said that to the audience by telling Peter very clearly she's there because it's her choice.
My loved one has just died. You don't think it's acceptable to have these types of thoughts or feelings?? The five stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. There's no timetable to any of them nor is there any specific order with the exception of Acceptance. Though you can repeat the stages at any time. I was just playing along with your made-up scenario.
Acceptable to have feelings of grief? Of course. To spend months punishing himself for something that was clearly not his fault, while the city suffers because of his absence, that is not acceptable. Next to breaking Captain Stacy's promise it's the most selfish act ever done by Spider-Man on screen post Uncle Ben's death.
In Peter's scenario, it isn't a random act here. He's a crime fighter. He already has his own worries about Gwen getting hurt and of course the words/warning from Capt Stacy. And rightly so, cause him being Spider-Man already puts his loved ones in danger. There's reason to worry. But he decides to ignore all of that and say I love you and stops her from going to England, well, at least temporarily anyway. I'm sure they were probably gonna catch a later flight or something. But now she's in NY with him when the danger happens.
He had no worries about Gwen getting hurt at this stage since he had chosen to be with her and go to England with her. According to him breaking promises like the one to Captain Stacy are the best kind of promises to break.
If him being Spider-Man is such a danger to his loved ones then why doesn't he leave Aunt May, and just isolate himself from having any friends and family. Why is it that it's only a girlfriend he can't have? Is his Aunt, the woman who raised him, somehow less important?
Foolish? Yeah, maybe. A part of the grieving process? Absolutely.
The difference here again is I am not a crime fighter. I am not a superhero who regularly is out stopping bad guys. So yeah and act at the theater would not necessarily put the blame on me, unless of course I was the one who persisted on going there in the first place. I would have feelings of guilt about that for sure. I understand that I couldn't have predicted it but that wouldn't stop me from having those thoughts and feelings. It's a process.
Being a crime fighter or not doesn't make a difference. Like if you were a Police Officer on your night off, and you went to the theatre and that happened. Your job doesn't make you capable of predicting when danger will strike.
Peter being Spider-Man doesn't make him capable of predicting the future. So he has no reason to feel that stopping Gwen from going to England makes him responsible for her death. That's nonsense. There's no direct correlation there. It was silly false guilt they made him wallow in for months just so they could have that cheesy heroic comeback.
I feel this is compounded even further by the fact that Peter tried to stop Gwen from getting involved, too. His conscience is clear.
Yeah and look how that turned out.
That is not the point. You mentioned him breaking that promise like it was new development in TASM-2. He and Gwen had apparently decided that they were not going to allow her father to dictate how they live their lives. But then Peter kept messing her around breaking up with her and then getting back together because according to her he had done that to her so many times, until she had enough and said she was breaking up with him.
I'm not in agreement. I think it's understandable that he took time off from his role as Spider-Man. He's grieveing, and, that makes sense to me. I understand why you say it doesn't to you--I get it. IMO this part of the movie was done well. He comes back for the right reasons and he comes to an even greater understanding of how much the city needs him. Even in the face of such a tremendous loss, he's got to keep on going.
I understand why they had him do it, it's that his basis for it is weak. It wasn't the grief, it was the guilt. He showed more grief and guilt for her death than he did for Uncle Ben's.
Unlike with Uncle Ben's death he had no reason to be feeling guilty. As for the grief, Peter Parker, no matter how much grief he's under would not wallow in self pity for months and leave the city to suffer in his absence.
Marc Webb has a poor handle on who Peter Parker is, and it's things like this which show it.
People are gonna have debates about certain topics, it's to be expected. 
Stalemate? 
(<--- haha get it? Chess reference. Sorry, that was my best attempt at a quip). 
