The Dark Knight Why getting tone and feel right is more important than detail accuracy...

[Tally Man]

I think the reason why Begins did so well was it found an balance between having the original details of the Batman comics in it as well as some new additions by film makers as well as finding the right tone for the movie. For every scene they added in to pay homage to the comics there was another scene with a fat detective flass instead of the big blond guy he was in the comics. So it clearly has its own mix of unique aspects along with the original comic facets.

The biggest plus for me about Begins was that campy aspects of the movies that had come before were replaced with a movie that took itself seriously. The tone of the movie was much more accurate then the details in many respects. Which is why I think people liked it more. Instead of a campy batman with bat niples and cheesy villains we had a film that was dark and full of complex and interesting characters. If Nolan does the same with the second movie I think it will be fine.

I just don't get what all the *****in is about. We haven't even gotten a teaser trailer and people are going crazy on both sides about 1 picture of a character. Wait for some actual film to hit the net before everyone cries the sky is falling or claiming this will be the best batman film ever.

 

[JTIZZLEVILLE]

Well said to everyone. I love the new Joker. And I also loved the Joker from B89. I know that Ledger will show us a performance totally different from Nicolson, but I also know that he will stay true to the Joker character.

I will be the first to say that if Nolan had drastically changed the look of the Joker, I would have been pissed. But he didn't. Joker still has the white face. The green hair. The red lips. And i know he will have the menacing laugh. So Nolan added some cuts on the side? Who cares? It's not like it won't be explained in the movie.

Why get so mad? Why scream out in rage? Do you honestly think that your ranting will accomplish anything (other than making me loose respect for you)? Nolan has already chosen this design and the movie is already filming. Either learn to deal with it and move on or pout about it.

You know what, if it bothers you that much, then boycott the movie. To every person who is fuming over the Joker's new look, I challenge you to boycott the movie. But...you won't. Because it is Batman. And it is Joker.

And you will love every minute of it.

 

[breyfogle_rules]

I challenge you to boycott the movie. But...you won't. Because it is Batman. And it is Joker.

And you will love every minute of it.

Lovin' every minute of it!

 

[Infinity9999x]

When it comes down to it, there are so many more things about this movie I stay concerned about besides the Joker's look.

Mostly, the plot. I hope it's not another destroy the city/kill everyone story, we just saw that.

Then, acting. Anyone who wasn't in BB. Heath, Aaron, David Banner, whoever.

Script. let's face it, there were plot holes and some dodgy dialog in Begins. They can always to better. If the characters aren't written correctly, who the hell cares what they look like. (venom)

Joker's look is important, but not as much when you put it into perspective.

That is a good point. I still liked Harry in SM3 because I thought he played a great villian, but his costume was horrible. Likewise, Ghostrider was pretty much 100% comic accurate in terms of looks....but the plot for that movie was horrid.

 

[Doc Samson]

I think what people are overlooking here, is that fact that it's very plausible
The Joker in the beginning of the film will appear much closer to his comic book roots than this picture suggests. From what we already know, he's the Joker from the very beginning, minus any scarring. I think what we'll get is a much more faithful representation in the beginning, while he slowly gets more insane during the course of the movie keeping in tune with the theme of escalation. I don't think he'll be smearing his lipstick across his face like that before he gets scarred. Either way, I think this new look is just another point of view, but his characteristics will be spot on no doubt about it. I think he'll be much more of a cunning, trickster type who matches wits with Batman, rather than someone who sporadically causes mayhem.

Oh yeah, salutations everyone...

 

[The Kid]

Well I was never one of those kinds of fanboys who got all flustered over shirtless pics of bale so I'm not going to bat an eyelash about scars except to say I'm more worried heath Ledger will just be a lame joker. Hopefully he surprises me.

 

[Batman FREAK]

^ Yeah that looks pretty terrible for real...

 

[regwec]

It is also a very weak pillar upon which to rest the argument for a comicbook pedigree for Nolan's revision. The comic was a short story that was itself clearly revisionist. It may have been excecuted specifically to give precedent to what was to come in the movie. It doesn't look much like Nolan's Joker anyway. And it has already been retconned.

 

[Keyser Soze]

For the record, I like Nolan's Joker better than The Joker that appeared in "The Clown At Midnight". Both had facial scars, but the comic version's was so extreme that it resulted in a fixed grin, preventing him from even talking properly.

The picture alone makes it clear that Ledger's Joker won't have a fixed grin. He is able to frown, despite the scars. And this, I assume, would mean he can talk properly too. Already better than Morrison's version then.

 

[ultimatefan]

But Joker has an element of camp to him,it comes with the theatricality of the character,to me it's not so much opposite it's just horrible execution of the character visually IMO

Those were pre movie issues,afterwards there was more "INWT" sigs than i care to remember and that was b/c while some may have had issue with some choices the fact was it was a 100% improvement over the prior Batman movie and thus has garnered him a "Can do no wrong" pass in many eyes on this board.

Well you may think it's understandable and thats fine with me but personally i go back to what i said earlier "If it ain't broke don't fix it" and to me the Joker wasn't broken

Like I said, we only saw one picture, and the viral marketing clearly had the "fun" or "campy" element of Joker.

And I bet with you it will be the case again. Anyway, this Joker look issue is post-Begins, so it really isn´t THAT much of a free pass.

I don´t look at it as "fix it" as to me it´s kind of a jazz improvisation approach, you go into a variation, but the basic motif remains the same. I can understand that some people would prefer that they stick to the traditional look they feel attached to, just not that it´s some major betrayal of everything The Joker represents, like some seem to think. It feels a lot to me like the organic webs debate on Spider-Man, where people blow the level of change way out of proportion.

 

[ultimatefan]

How many times are we going to get the anti-fanboy rant? Some details are important to me, other's I couldn't give a damn about, but that I do care about some doesn't make them less important.

I never said details don´t matter at all, just that some people sort of obssess with them and become intolerant to different approaches, even if they keep in line with basic themes and motifs of the characters.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Like I said, we only saw one picture, and the viral marketing clearly had the "fun" or "campy" element of Joker.

And I bet with you it will be the case again. Anyway, this Joker look issue is post-Begins, so it really isn´t THAT much of a free pass.

I don´t look at it as "fix it" as to me it´s kind of a jazz improvisation approach, you go into a variation, but the basic motif remains the same. I can understand that some people would prefer that they stick to the traditional look they feel attached to, just not that it´s some major betrayal of everything The Joker represents, like some seem to think. It feels a lot to me like the organic webs debate on Spider-Man, where people blow the level of change way out of proportion.

As i also said i will give the chance for this Joker to be seen,i think he will turn out much like Burton's Penguin

I would say The Joker was the one thing even the most hardened Nolan supporter would not give him a free pass on,example Rynan and if you notice those of us not happy with the look are those that never gave him free ride to begin with

Well as i said if you see it that way that is fine but to me it was a completely unnecessary and disappointing creative choice visually for an icon....I really don't see many saying it ruins everything that Joker represents just that it is a horrible translation of the character

 

[Keyser Soze]

As i also said i will give the chance for this Joker to be seen,i think he will turn out much like Burton's Penguin

I would say The Joker was the one thing even the most hardened Nolan supporter would not give him a free pass on,example Rynan and if you notice those of us not happy with the look are those that never gave him free ride to begin with

Well as i said if you see it that way that is fine but to me it was a completely unnecessary and disappointing creative choice visually for an icon....I really don't see many saying it ruins everything that Joker represents just that it is a horrible translation of the character

Erm....I loved Burton's Penguin.

As a literal translation of the comic character, it didn't work, but as a film character in his own right, Burton's Penguin is one of the director's finest, most haunting creations.

But I'll stop dipping into my "In Defense Of Batman Returns..." files to get back on-topic. Hunter rider, you have certainly been civil in explaining your dislike for the character, and people like regwec have said they genuinely hope to have their worries silenced when they see the film. But you do have some who have actually said that - as a result of this picture - they won't be going to see the film anymore. And I think it's an extreme reaction, also a saddening one. That these people - clearly devoted fans - would deprive themselves of what could be a great Batman movie all to make a stand against one visual detail.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Erm....I loved Burton's Penguin.

As a literal translation of the comic character, it didn't work, but as a film character in his own right, Burton's Penguin is one of the director's finest, most haunting creations.

But I'll stop dipping into my "In Defense Of Batman Returns..." files to get back on-topic. Hunter rider, you have certainly been civil in explaining your dislike for the character, and people like regwec have said they genuinely hope to have their worries silenced when they see the film. But you do have some who have actually said that - as a result of this picture - they won't be going to see the film anymore. And I think it's an extreme reaction, also a saddening one. That these people - clearly devoted fans - would deprive themselves of what could be a great Batman movie all to make a stand against one visual detail.

Oh i like Returns as well,it's one of my favourite Elseworlds tales,that's what i was meaning when i said that,i think this Joker can still be a good screen character,i highly doubt The Nolan's would write a bad character,just visually he will be more mutated than i had hoped

I also find that a somewhat melodramatic approach,i can respect disappointment but like with anything more info is needed
I look at this whole reveal as running the length of the pitch with the ball and then dropping it 2 yards from the endzone....By that i don't mean that ppl shouldn't like the image but if they'd revealed and image of him smiling and where you could also see his green hair i believe a lot of the complaints would be more muted as the execution of the reveal was classic Joker

 

[ultimatefan]

As i also said i will give the chance for this Joker to be seen,i think he will turn out much like Burton's Penguin

I would say The Joker was the one thing even the most hardened Nolan supporter would not give him a free pass on,example Rynan and if you notice those of us not happy with the look are those that never gave him free ride to begin with

Well as i said if you see it that way that is fine but to me it was a completely unnecessary and disappointing creative choice visually for an icon....I really don't see many saying it ruins everything that Joker represents just that it is a horrible translation of the character

Again, let´s see more of it before making a final judgement. Again, I think "horrible" is too strong a word, if they put something like a tomato nose on him I´d totally agree, but I don´t see the scars or the makeup around his eyes as something so terrible.

BTW, can you make me an avvy with that image? Right after the image, I´d like a black background and white letters saying "I believe in Heath Ledger",t:

 

[Hunter Rider]

Again, let´s see more of it before making a final judgement. Again, I think "horrible" is too strong a word, if they put something like a tomato nose on him I´d totally agree, but I don´t see the scars or the makeup around his eyes as something so terrible.

BTW, can you make me an avvy with that image? Right after the image, I´d like a black background and white letters saying "I believe in Heath Ledger",t:

Well i have said all along i will wait to make a final judgment,my comments thus far are based on the pic,ive not said the Joker or movie are ruined.
While you may see it as to strong it is the word that describes my feelings towards a scarred smile and batered ****e make up......and yes i am copyrighting that

Blasphemy!!!t: Sure I'll PM you it

 

[regwec]

While those of you who urge us to restrain or judgement until the final film are broadly right, it should be noted that most of us "detractors" have expressed contempt for the appearance of the image alone.

 

[deathfromabove]

raybia has yet to make a comment about the Joker's appearance.

And you know what? I am withholding my comments at this time.

Why?

Because all that I have seen is merely 1 photo that doesn't completely reveal his actual appearance. Also this photo as not be confirmed by WB as legit (though all indications point that it is). In addition, if the photo is real, then its even possible that its not the final look of Ledger's Joker.

With all of that said, even if the look was spot on or a weak visual interpretation, Nolan's characterization and Ledger's performance will make or break whether or not this is Classic Joker.

So in simple terms, Its way too early for me to get overly excited or panicky.

In the meanwhile I'll just chill and take the news as it comes and trust the Nolan boys until I see the trailer in December.

good man. also i like your current signature very much.

 

[Ming]

While tone and feel have their place, they do not or will not justify "the joke".

I work in the fine arts field and am a student of the arts. During my studies, I have viewed my fair share of projects executed by people who lack determination, skill, talent, and focus. Often, when questioned about it, they believe that an explanation will some-how redeem their work and make it better in the process. However, no matter how extraneous or emotional the description, it does not detract from the fact that crappy art is crappy art.

Thus, from my experience, I doubt that any form of explanation, be it dramatic or spectacle, will ever make this seem reasonable.

 

[deathfromabove]

Erm....I loved Burton's Penguin.

As a literal translation of the comic character, it didn't work, but as a film character in his own right, Burton's Penguin is one of the director's finest, most haunting creations.

But I'll stop dipping into my "In Defense Of Batman Returns..." files to get back on-topic. Hunter rider, you have certainly been civil in explaining your dislike for the character, and people like regwec have said they genuinely hope to have their worries silenced when they see the film. But you do have some who have actually said that - as a result of this picture - they won't be going to see the film anymore. And I think it's an extreme reaction, also a saddening one. That these people - clearly devoted fans - would deprive themselves of what could be a great Batman movie all to make a stand against one visual detail.

despite whatever it is they claim, if they are indeed true batman (and joker) fans, they will be there to see for themselves. anyone who would let one visual prevent them from seeing a movie is irrational and obviously not as big a fan of the character as they claim. i knew batman and robin was going to suck but it still didnt stop from being there on opening night (if only to yell at the screen and literally throw food at it).

just as jack's joker ignored certain elements of the character and exaggerated others (like his weight ) ledger and nolan's joker will be only one interpretation, focusing on certain elements they feel are important to the story and character. personally, im hoping they do put there own stamp on the character as opposed to trying to please everyone with an amalgam watered down version that panders to expectations. as long as he retains enough of his core essentials im not going to second guess every creative and artistic decision made. if anything, nolan has proven himself more of an artist than craftsman and he has given me no reason to doubt him thus far. besides i am one of those who prefer film adaptations to have there own take and distance themselves slightly from the source material. movies are not comics and comics are not film.

 

[Ming]

anyone who would let one visual prevent them from seeing a movie is irrational and obviously not as big a fan of the character as they claim.

No, thats blind obedience. I envy you and your lack of scruples.

A picture paints a thousand words. They have unconscious messages within them that tells their viewer volumes. I look upon "the joke", and it sings to me a bedlam of unsettling sounds that send doubt into my heart and rage unto my fists.

 

[ultimatefan]

While those of you who urge us to restrain or judgement until the final film are broadly right, it should be noted that most of us "detractors" have expressed contempt for the appearance of the image alone.

That´s fair enough, just some people seem to be trying to call on the absence of different Joker character nuances that can´t really be captured in a single picture.

 

[regwec]

Okay, but it is not unreasonable to speculate on some of those. I.e- slap-dash makeup rather erodes the case for a vain and conceited personality.

 

[ultimatefan]

Okay, but it is not unreasonable to speculate on some of those. I.e- slap-dash makeup rather erodes the case for a vain and conceited personality.

And so does perennial chalk white skin, if you ask me.

 

[ultimatefan]

Well i have said all along i will wait to make a final judgment,my comments thus far are based on the pic,ive not said the Joker or movie are ruined.
While you may see it as to strong it is the word that describes my feelings towards a scarred smile and batered ****e make up......and yes i am copyrighting that

Blasphemy!!!t: Sure I'll PM you it

Well, some writers seem to think Joker is a bit of a ****e... But that´s another story...t:

And thanks again for the avvy!