The Dark Knight Why getting tone and feel right is more important than detail accuracy...

Agreed. Joker is creepy and psychotic. Now, for the sport of it, lets say there are those of us who are NOT responding to this particular image as being creepy and psychotic?

Like the picture I just posted, to me he just looks like a "nu metal" bratty idiot into body modification. Yes, "Hot Topic" could describe itself in it's corporate blurb as creepy and psychotic. Is it really? Hardly.
But this is just the point I'm at in my life right now. This opinion will probably all change. But c'mon. You don't think its maybe a little Insane Clown Posse?

And I can really see this working in Nolans world anyway.
It's just not my dream visual for Mr. Kerr.

The joker didn't look creep and psychotic (In other words, deformed and ugly) until this picture came out. Before that, everyone was arguing he should look like those hundreds of manips of ledger when people were desperately trying to make him look like the comic joker which basically ended up resembling this more than the comic version

joker_minifig.jpg
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Because Ledger's face doesn't lend itself well to much more than a lego block.
 
These looks get their inspiration from horror movies, so this "nu metal" or "emo" doesn´t apply more than it does to other horror movie characters. Now every guy who´s pale and has weird eyes is ripping off Marylin Manson?

Bottomline for me is, if I saw a guy looking like this in an empty street at night, I´d run like hell, and probably so would you.

I would dance like I was catching invisible butterfly's with zippers on my pants while Combichrist blasted out of some speaker. You're right, not everyone with white face is ripping Manson. And I admit, I wear white make-up frequently and hang out with fetishy weirdos, so my opinion is slanted. I just dont think we are splitting hairs when talking about wraith-like, whiteface fashion. To me, as a "goth", I think there is a very wide birth for interpretation of the pastey psycho look. In fact, it is something I find very attractive when done right in all it's subleties. That said, if I saw this character come walking up to me in an ally I would first feel embaressed for him. He looks like one of the metal kids that shows up to the goth club trying to fit in only to hook up with a hot goth girl but is just getting it all horribly wrong.

I want to see a Joker that even has all the freaks into rubber and suffocation going "wow, now THAT is lovely".
 
it sucks to be you in 2008 :wow:

Not really.

It sucks to be all those fanboys who were jumping around celebrating how "comic accurate" Batman begins was that's for sure though.
 
The joker didn't look creep and psychotic (In other words, deformed and ugly) until this picture came out. Before that, everyone was arguing he should look like those hundreds of manips of ledger when people were desperately trying to make him look like the comic joker which basically ended up resembling this more than the comic version

I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to start trouble anymore. The Joker didn't look creepy before this? Really? Are we to the point where people will say anything, even obvious bull****, just to disagree with the decisions around a comic book movie?
 
I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to start trouble anymore. The Joker didn't look creepy before this? Really? Are we to the point where people will say anything, even obvious bull****, just to disagree with the decisions around a comic book movie?

I'm the devil and I'm here to destroy you all! boo! be afraid!

No, I'm dead serious. People will say ANYTHING to defend Nolan, they're that crazy.

I'm in "wait and see mode" myself though.
 
I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or just trying to start trouble anymore. The Joker didn't look creepy before this? Really? Are we to the point where people will say anything, even obvious bull****, just to disagree with the decisions around a comic book movie?
Yeah, you can say anything about "Nolan sheep", but we never said something this preposterous. Now all of a sudden Joker is supposed to look like, I dunno, a jolly lovely clown or something. Anyone who says the character in the art of Bob Kane, Neal Adams, Marshall Rogers, Brian Bolland, etc. doesn´t look creepy and psychotic is in urgent need of psychiatric counseling.
 
Raise of hands, who wanted Joker to look like this before the picture came out!
 
Now all of a sudden Joker is supposed to look like, I dunno, a jolly lovely clown or something. Anyone who says the character in the art of Bob Kane, Neal Adams, Marshall Rogers, Brian Bolland, etc. doesn´t look creepy and psychotic is in urgent need of psychiatric counseling.

Actually, The Joker has always been able to alternate between the two. That's the whole point, and that is something that The Joke obviously can't do.
 
I'm the devil and I'm here to destroy you all! boo! be afraid!

No, I'm dead serious. People will say ANYTHING to defend Nolan, they're that crazy.

I'm in "wait and see mode" myself though.

I'm not a "Nolan defender", but are you honestly saying that this picture is the first time the Joker has looked creepy? Because that doesn't sound like "wait and see", that sounds like utter insanity.
 
See above: The Joker should be able to look creepy, but he should also be able to look comical. With a mouth like Cherie Blair after a glass eating contest, Heath won't be able to do that.
 
He will, you'll see ;)

I dunno, this all seems like the Daniel Craig casting. Where's acutsmileisnotjoker.com !? LOL... *rolls eyes*
 
I'm not a "Nolan defender", but are you honestly saying that this picture is the first time the Joker has looked creepy? Because that doesn't sound like "wait and see", that sounds like utter insanity.

The fact is that every villain ever made is drawn like a creepy psychotic. That doesn't mean they should all be given scars in the movies.

My post was focused not on the literal interpretation of this being the first time he's ever been creepy or psychotic, but I know that's all you read into it so why bother explain myself. I doubt you care to be open to my views. But what the hell, life is short. So what I'm really saying is that in light of this image's existence people who are nolan worshippers are focusing exclusively on how Joker's appeared close to the image in question, whereas before that Joker merely looked like typical comic joker without any special definition of his overall essence. views of the Joker seem to be Narrowing down now for obvious reasons. Make sense?
 
He will, you'll see ;)

I dunno, this all seems like the Daniel Craig casting. Where's acutsmileisnotjoker.com !? LOL... *rolls eyes*

I don't think so. It would be comparable if we all blasted Heath as soon as he was cast, but I at least did not. The best analogy I can project backwards onto Casino Royale is if the first image of Craig as Bond showed him with a tattoo covering his face.
 
See above: The Joker should be able to look creepy, but he should also be able to look comical. With a mouth like Cherie Blair after a glass eating contest, Heath won't be able to do that.

He will have his laughter, he even said he´s been practicing it, but even the comical aspect of Joker comes off as creepy.
 
Actually, The Joker has always been able to alternate between the two. That's the whole point, and that is something that The Joke obviously can't do.

Actually no, the Joker THINKS he´s funny, but his sense of humor comes off as creepy, not funny.
 
Actually no, The Joker frequently makes rather astute and irreverant jokes that are genuinely amusing, and are clearly intended to be.
 
edit.

well he did make batman smirk a little.
 
Actually no, the Joker THINKS he´s funny, but his sense of humor comes off as creepy, not funny.

Really it depends whose writing. It's nice when writers can create conflicting chills and laughs at the same time eg recent Dini issue. Of course it's not supposed to be funny for anyone actually in the room with him, if that's what you mean.
 
I'm still trying to figure out why psychotic and creepy are the words used to describe Joker when I know he would think himself above being a common psycho or street creep in the subway. He's just the Joker.

981109-1.jpg
 
Really it depends whose writing. It's nice when writers can create conflicting chills and laughs at the same time eg recent Dini issue. Of course it's not supposed to be funny for anyone actually in the room with him, if that's what you mean.

That´s what I mean, his sense of humor can be funny in a black humor kinda way, but even so that humor makes him even creepier. You may laugh, but the targets of the joke are screaming in horror.
 
The Joker is definatley funny to the reader. I find myself smiling when I read most of his stuff. Like when he shot Barbara Gordon, all of those libararian puns. I chuckled.

His recent Detective Comics appearance was also great. Books like those are how he should be characterized.
 
One of the things that sometimes annoys me with part of the comics fandom is how much people tend to obssess with accuracy to details. They want things to be EXACTLY like the comics, even given that it´s impossible to begin with. That´s especially true to characters´ looks, and sometimes even relatively small changes - am I the only one who sees that the Superman Returns suit is still 90% an accurate to comics Superman suit? - can cause quite a stir. That comes with some distortions of priorities, such as people giving more value to details accuracy than the look giving you the right tone and feel of the character.

Let´s see a look that can be considered pretty "accurate". In theory, Cesar Romero´s Joker is not only pretty accurate to the comics of his period, but even close to the modern comics look: the bright red lips are there, the chalk-white skin, the green hair, it could even be said it´s closer than Jack Nicholson´s look - hey, it has no perma-smile! But could a modern interpretation of Joker look just like Romero and still work? No. Because in spirte of those details, what Romero´s Joker gives you is a campy clown, which of course is what Joker was back in the day, but is totally inconsistent with the psychotic Joker of Bill Finger and Bob Kane, Dennis O´Neil and Neal Adams, Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers, Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, etc.

We don´t even need to go that far: In theory, Two-Face´s makeup in Batman Forever is accurate. Yeah, if you look you can even find pinkish versions of the acid-burned half in comics. What was the real problem with Two-Face? He was portrayed as a cackling, jumpy, campy villain instead of the dark and tragic character from the comics.

Now, I´m sure if there was Internet back in 89, a lot of fans would have made tons of noise against Batman wearing black instead of blue and gray: he had been wearing light blue and gray suit for decades in comics, even in the darker O´Neil/Englehart ones - and I´m not even gonna get into the rubber armor thing or the absence of briefs, etc. If you wanna really nitpick it, even Joker´s look wasn´t 100% right. Nicholson was chubby while comics Joker is notoriously skinny, not to mention the perennial smile. Accurate it wasn´t. But in the end of the day, it worked, why? Cuz the tone and feel were right. Batman is supposed to look dark, creepy, stealthy, mysterious. And Joker, while still with a good deal of camp in him, was also the homicidal maniac from comics. It´s the purpose of the look, not the details.

People´s initial reaction to the new Joker isn´t too different from what it´d have been, there was Internet in 89, to Batman´s black suit - hey, in theory it´s a more radical change than anything done to Superman´s suit in SR! And it´s also not too different from what the recent reaction was to, say, The Tumbler in Batman Begins, not the traditional sports car with fins from most comics incarnations.

And that´s why I´m not shaken by all those negative comments against Joker´s look. The look may not be "comics-accurate" - or it is, you just have to look at the right comics -, but the tone is right. The Joker I love from comics looks like a creepy psychotic distortion of a clown´s look, and that´s the concept here as well, details aside. Okay, it´d have probably helped if he was smiling in the picture, but I remember the first pics we saw of The Tumbler and Batman´s suit in BB didn´t exactly do them justice either. The clever, anarchic and unusual way that the image was revealed to us, however, was brilliantly Joker-like. They know the character. There will be plenty of time for people to see that there´s much more to The Joker than clean white makeup and neat red lips, and Nolan and his people know it.


What i'm wondering is...why couldnt we have...I dunno...just throwing this out there...both a joker that is actually faithful to the comics and something that looks scary?

Thats the problem with many people on both sides...you act like its either or.

what you hit on earlier with ceaser and tom lee jones...you realize that, they too fit their respective tones perfectly? Of course no one's gonna use Romero's Joker today....Romero's Joker only works because the TV show purposely made the characters look like jokes....which is probably why they let romero keep his mustache on even with the white paint on him. O Neil, Engleheart, etc all took the classic look and fit them into their tones. They didnt need Joker looking like some Edward Scissorhands reject to make their own mark on the clown prince of crime.

Most didnt have a problem with Jack Nicholson as Joker because...he actually looked like the joker, short and fatness aside. The face from the comics was translated to screen, even with the perma laugh. They managed to fit burtons tone of a screwball world and the comics at the same time. Same with Batman's outfit. With the molded rubber, its essentially the neal adams costume except in all black. I dont agree that fans wouldve freaked out...at least not in the way you think. Hearing about a black suit, yes...but seeing it...like many did when WB released that teaser...people wouldve shut up immediately, because the suit looks like the comics and fit the tone of the movie.

People didnt like the SR suit because it took the bright, shiny colors of Superman, and made them muddled and dark, and they looked horrible put together. At least Batmans a dark character...you understood why his suit was made darker. With Superman, it seemed very unnecessary, and frankly, the suit looked horrible in the first picture.

Sorry, but people dont like this pic because they crapped all over the joker look. Even though nolan disappointed the hell out of me with Scarecrow, at least he had some semblance of the comics, especially at the end of the movie. At least Movie Ra's Al Ghul looked somewhat like the comic Ras Al Ghul. But Joker? He looks like one the comic joker's sick lackey's that joker would throw in a vat of acid for no reason.

Now, I know many Nolanites are, as they usually do, completely spit on the comics and praise whatever the hell nolan does, but realize that fitting the tone and being actually faithful to the over all look of the character are not mutually exclusive ideas. If Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Chris Reeve's superman could do it, so can joker.
 
Yes the reader finds the words and pictures on the page funny. Thats because we're all sick twisted *****s. Everyone in Gotham will quickly know who he is and therefore the idea of him luring people in with a perceived innocence doesn't jive. Naive children may fall for Joker, and that happens repeatedly in the comic, but in the movie it wouldn't make sense if adults cozied up to him after seeing his murders morning, noon, and night on the news. I think its a very specific, reasonably extraneous thing, that can be represented just as effectively in other ways. Although I understand you obviously don't.

As it seems to be understood, there is a period in the film before this scarring. We're going to get a good character arc I believe. In the beginning, thats when you might get pretty boy Joker getting some cashier all hot under the collar by getting up close and using his charm. That would happen right before he slits, shoots, punches, or gases her. This would be true to the character in my opinion while his look for the given situation would be different. Still drawing them in with the charm of a Las Vegas showman, and still dispensing them with the carelessness of a madman.
 
Great poster Ultimatefan! Very good points.


Right now I'm with Wes in the "wait and see mode"
 
This whole debate is like banging your head against a wall.

On one hand, you have the pro-Joker group saying Nolan is going for realism. And on the other hand, you have the anti-Joker group saying Nolan has abandoned any sense of faithfulness to the comics. Why exactly have these become two such diverse, alien ideas?

Did anybody here actually SEE "Batman Begins"?

This was a movie that - when it came to surface details - made a lot of changes to the comics, both in appearance and in terms of story points. But the important thing was that it captured the essence, the heart of Batman. Something that most recognised as being far more important than the details.

And now we're onto the sequel, and so many have forgotten this. We're back to step one, with everyone arguing over DETAILS! "Oh, Joker's got scars on his face, so that means that Nolan all of a sudden has contempt for the Batman mythos and all its fans, we'll just pretend Batman Begins never happened."

You all claim to be the TRUE fans of The Joker for being so quick to reject his movie counterpart. But I say that those who do this are selling the character short. Yes, the details are different, but by rejecting the character and the film completely based on the image - like not all, but many of you are doing - you are basically saying that you're happy to set aside all the great Joker stories, all the aspects of Joker's persona that make him memorable, and a great villain. That's all worthless. Joker is a set of lips, nothing more.

It's just like the people who wrote off Tobey Maguire's performance because he had organic webshooters. "That's not the Spider-Man I know!", they all defiantly screamed, long after the movie was released. Again, obsession with details. An obsession that forced them to overlook how the movie made us care for Peter as a character, and how the heart of Spider-Man was perfectly captured. And now, the obsession with details is stopping people from looking at the whole - the marketing campaign, the snippets of dialogue - and see that the heart, the essence of The Joker appears for now to be very much intact.
 

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