The Dark Knight Why TDK won't be next BR or another disappointment

[Cinemaman]

At first, lets look at movie like Batman Returns.

I can't understand why almost all fanboys started all this crap about BR as movie with very different formula to B89?

In BR I saw the same formula, but with only new vissual style and other Post-Production stuff. Everything another? Script had the same strategy, which was alos used in B89.

Just watch BR again. It was another superhero movie without anything new in storytelling.

What was changed?

1. BR was much darker movie than B89
2. Vissual Style
3. More action
4. Inntroducing figure like Catwoman
5. 3 villians

And thats all, nothing new. No new formula or storytelling. Everything is the same, just better action scenes and more animal stuff (Bat vs. Cat vs. Penguin).

And now lets look at sequels, which had REAL different formulas.

There are examples:
Godfather II, T2 and Aliens.

Godfather II. What was new?

1. The main character is Michael
2. New storytelling
3. Development of characters

So except all this Post-Production stuff, formula is different.

T2, what was new?

1. T-800 as good Terminator
2. New storytelling
3. From Sci-Fi movie (T1;there also were some horror-movie scenes) to huge summer blockbuster (T2)
4. The main character is John
5. Development of characters
6. Terminator vs. Terminator

Everything new, besides the main idea of the movie.

And, the last one is Aliens.

1. From Sci-Fi horror movie to Sci-Fi adventure movie
2. New storytelling and characters
3. Now there are aliens, not only one monster

Of course, there also were much more action scenes.

So, the final question is Why TDK won't suck?

1. Nolan had enough freedom, while he was working on BB, so there is no chance that he will turn into next Burton
2. Cast
3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie
4. It will be darker movie than BB, but not as dark as BR was, because I think everyone knows usual Nolan's vissual style (very dark, but not gothic)
5. There will be new psychological aspect
6. New characters and their development
7. I think Nolan knows about fans, who wanted to see a bit better action scenes in BB, so he will take it as advice working on the sequel
8. Nolan was always faithful to comics

So I think I proved my thoughts. Don't worry, everything is going to be GREAT

BTW, Ledger will be the best Joker, believe me. He looks and can act like Joker.

 

[El Payaso]

Bascally every movie is not BR except for BR. That said, I doubt TDK will be BR. So there.

 

[Fenrir]

Was this thread really necessary?

 

[Cinemaman]

Was this thread really necessary?

Yeah, I know it is based on my opinion and this sucks.

But I just wanted posters to finally read what I think about all this BR crap.

I wa trying to get attention posting it in other threads (but there were only parts of my full opinion), but it didn't work.

So I got tired and made this thread.

Sorry again, but it was necessary for me to finally say this.

 

[The Kid]

I like batman returns so if it is, I'm good.

 

[Superman4ever!]

I like batman returns so if it is, I'm good.

yes i loved Batman Returns, and i actually loved Forever! ( jett from Bof)hates returns and Loves Forever, and i guess i enjoyed batman & robin in a different way then other people see it, i thought of it as an homage to the Adam west series, and the next installment would be Serious again.

 

[kenellard]

So, the final question is Why TDK won't suck?

1. Nolan had enough freedom, while he was working on BB, so there is no chance that he will turn into next Burton
2. Cast
3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie
4. It will be darker movie than BB, but not as dark as BR was, because I think everyone knows usual Nolan's vissual style (very dark, but not gothic)
5. There will be new psychological aspect
6. New characters and their development
7. I think Nolan knows about fans, who wanted to see a bit better action scenes in BB, so he will take it as advice working on the sequel
8. Nolan was always faithful to comics

So I think I proved my thoughts. Don't worry, everything is going to be GREAT

BTW, Ledger will be the best Joker, believe me. He looks and can act like Joker.

I'd love it if you could elabourate on how exactly you know any of this, because saying all that with no evidence to back up any of those claims is pretty ridiculous, sounds like a load of crap quite frankly

 

[StorminNorman]

^
1. Nolan has said many times that he had basically the freedom to make the movie he wanted to make - that is from his own words.

2. The Cast is all top quality as shown in Batman Begins. Heath Ledger is one of the greatest young actors in Hollywood today.

3. Goyer wrote the Treatment.

4. Nolan has said in recent interviews (and I believe Bale mentioned this too) that the film will be darker and something we have not seen before.

5. Nolan has said that a lot of the Joker story has come from the original Joker comic stories - that were based around the Joker playing games with the city by calling out his murders before he executed them.

6. Harvey Dent, Joker, etc - New Character. Goyer said we will see the development (and fall) of Harvey Dent.

7. No proof at all - all speculation

8. There were scenes in BB that were ripped from the comics, period.

 

[Cinemaman]

So, the final question is Why TDK won't suck?

1. Nolan had enough freedom, while he was working on BB, so there is no chance that he will turn into next Burton
2. Cast
3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie
4. It will be darker movie than BB, but not as dark as BR was, because I think everyone knows usual Nolan's vissual style (very dark, but not gothic)
5. There will be new psychological aspect
6. New characters and their development
7. I think Nolan knows about fans, who wanted to see a bit better action scenes in BB, so he will take it as advice working on the sequel
8. Nolan was always faithful to comics

So I think I proved my thoughts. Don't worry, everything is going to be GREAT

BTW, Ledger will be the best Joker, believe me. He looks and can act like Joker.

I'd love it if you could elabourate on how exactly you know any of this, because saying all that with no evidence to back up any of those claims is pretty ridiculous, sounds like a load of crap quite frankly

Nolan had $150m budget (high numbers) and he made the whole movie like he wanted.

Cast is still one of the strongest aspects of this movie.

Goyer is comic book nerd.

I've already explained my thoughts about "darker movie".

I doubt Nolan won't use new psychological aspect, because if he goes with new formula for TDk, there will be new psychological aspects (not only fear).

Dent, Joker and others.

Just my thoughts, I also used "I think" to prove this.

Nolan asked Goyer to write script for BB and treatments for sequels, also there will be Joker's creator to help Nolan better understand this character (as I think).

 

[kenellard]

^
1. Nolan has said many times that he had basically the freedom to make the movie he wanted to make - that is from his own words.

2. The Cast is all top quality as shown in Batman Begins. Heath Ledger is one of the greatest young actors in Hollywood today.

3. Goyer wrote the Treatment.

4. Nolan has said in recent interviews (and I believe Bale mentioned this too) that the film will be darker and something we have not seen before.

5. Nolan has said that a lot of the Joker story has come from the original Joker comic stories - that were based around the Joker playing games with the city by calling out his murders before he executed them.

6. Harvey Dent, Joker, etc - New Character. Goyer said we will see the development (and fall) of Harvey Dent.

7. No proof at all - all speculation

8. There were scenes in BB that were ripped from the comics, period.

A lot of what you're saying is true, but cinemaman was talking in absolutes, which is just plain wrong for a film that hasn't been made yet. As someone who wasn't (and still isn't) totally blown away by begins I'm wary of putting a movie that doesn't exist yet up on a pedistal

 

[Katsuro]

With Burton, he was restricted on his first film, so when they gave him full freedom on Returns, we got what Burton really wanted in a Batman film. That's not the case with Nolan though. He already had full control on his first film, so if he has full control on the second film too, we already kinda know what to expect.

I think a lot of people are put off by his "different" comment, but seem to be misinterpreting him. I dont think he means different in terms of tone and style, but simply in terms of story. He did mention the origin, and how the sequel will obviously have all of that taken care of. I think he basically means we're not getting Batman Begins with new villains superimposed over the old ones.

I mean, that's basically what Batman Forever and Batman and Robin were. The movie opens with a fight against an already existing villain, who's backstory is referenced and shown on video/TV. We meet a seemingly normal person, who goes crazy and becomes a villain. The two villains team up and enact a crazy plan to get rid of Batman/Gotham. Same plot, different characters. That's not what Nolan wants.

 

[DA Harvey Dent]

 

[The Sage]

Wow what is it with the former franchise insults?

And you think BR was exactly like B89 in terms of the storytelling formula?

 

[Cinemaman]

Wow what is it with the former franchise insults?

And you think BR was exactly like B89 in terms of the storytelling formula?

Yep. There were just some changes like more action and villians. Besides, Burton included "Bat vs. Cat vs. Penguin (as animals)" as the main aspect, and that wasn't right.

As I said before, Burton used new vissual style just to draw attention from script and that is why people thought it was new formula.

Besides, if I am wrong as you think, I can only say that Burton didn't choose right formula for BR.

 

[The Sage]

Yep. There were just some changes like more action and villians. Besides, Burton included "Bat vs. Cat vs. Penguin (as animals)" as the main aspect, and that wasn't right. As I said before, Burton used new vissual style just to draw attention from script and that is why people thought it was new formula.

Well, if you say so. I'll just leave this one alone for another day.

 

[Cinemaman]

Well, if you say so. I'll just leave this one alone for another day.

Oh god, read my full post again.

Yes, Burton could go with new formula (doubtful), but he didn't choose right strategy for sequel.

I doubt the same will happen with director like Nolan. And I've already explained why I think so.

 

[The Sage]

Oh god, read my full post again.

Yes, Burton could go with new formula (doubtful), but he didn't choose right strategy for sequel.

I doubt the same will happen with director like Nolan. And I've already explained why I think so.

Most of your points are pretty good, except for:

3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie

Goyer's only writing the treatment, not the script, so this time around it will be more of his movie than Goyer's, which is probably a very good thing since the script was weak.

5. There will be new psychological aspect

What are you basing this off of?

7. I think Nolan knows about fans, who wanted to see a bit better action scenes in BB, so he will take it as advice working on the sequel

Nolan knows about the fans and their wants, but he'll go with what he wants to do over what the fans want. The only the way the fans will get their ideas in the film is if they correlate with what Nolan's wants to do. He did that in BB, and I'm sure he'll do that in TDK.

8. Nolan was always faithful to comics

He wasn't always faithful to the comicbooks in Batman Begins, and I doubt he'll be completely faithful to them with The Dark Knight.

As for the comparison to Godfather II in terms of the main character change, I'm pretty sure Bruce Wayne/Batman will continue being the main character of this franchise.


As for me, I think TDK has the potential to be a classic, five star story that can deliver the goods in more ways than one.

 

[Cinemaman]

Most of your points are pretty good, except for:



Goyer's only writing the treatment, not the script, so this time around it will be more of his movie than Goyer's, which is probably a very good thing since the script was weak.



What are you basing this off of?



Nolan knows about the fans and their wants, but he'll go with what he wants to do over what the fans want. The only the way the fans will get their ideas in the film is if they correlate with what Nolan's wants to do. He did that in BB, and I'm sure he'll do that in TDK.



He wasn't always faithful to the comicbooks in Batman Begins, and I doubt he'll be completely faithful to them with The Dark Knight.

As for the comparison to Godfather II in terms of the main character change, I'm pretty sure Bruce Wayne/Batman will continue being the main character of this franchise.


As for me, I think TDK has the potential to be a classic, five star story that can deliver the goods in more ways than one.

Thank you.

You didn't get it right. I meant, there will not be the same situation, which happened with Burton's movies. As fans say, BR was more like Burton's movie than Batman film.
But it won't happen this time, because Goyer wrote treatment, so that means that Nolan will be again faithful to comics. So I didn't mean Goyer's, but I was talking about
how faithful will be Nolan.

Uhhh... As I said, if Nolan uses new formula for TDk, then he will introduce new psychological aspects (not only fear, which was in BB).

Agreed. Just my thoughts.

Exactly. BB wasn't full comic book on-screen like Sin City was, and thank god it wasn't.
I just mean Nolan is enough faithful to comics to make TDK as also good adaptation of Batman comics.

Yep.

Hope so

 

[fabman]

you're looking to much into this, y'all... can't you just be happy with a great movie? what ya want more?

 

[Darknightnomis]

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

And it wasn't just the fanboys that was indifference about Batman Returns it was the fans and the movie going public in general.

And the main reason is becasue THE FORMULA for BR is so different from Batman.

BAtman was Dark and Gothic. Batman Returns was Dark and weird.

Penguins in the Sewers?
Alley Cats Resurrecting a women?
Max Shreix's Hair?
Remote control Penguins with bombs? (by the way where was all the people when they went to the Gotham Square)
A yellow Ducky as an escape vehicle?
Penguins as palbearer?

Was that A Batman movie or Pee Wee' Next adventure?


1. Nolan had enough freedom, while he was working on BB, so there is no chance that he will turn into next Burton

Never say Never there is Always a chance. When Burton was given free reign to do the sequel..well you see what happend.

2. Cast

Does that include Kathie Holmes? (Joke) And I think it's going to be "interesting" to see Ledger as the Joker.

3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie

Aa Screenwriter only. He's not wrting the story or consulting. Nolan's brother is writng the movie.

And this is very important.

Let me put it this way. Sam Hamm, who was the screenwrter for the first Batman, NEVER had it in his script that the Joker was going to kill Bruce Wayne's parente, but TIM BURTON wanted the Joker to do it, and it was put in the movie.

4. It will be darker movie than BB, but not as dark as BR was, because I think everyone knows usual Nolan's vissual style (very dark, but not gothic)

The darkness wasn't the questionable factor in BR, it was the Tim Burton like Weirdness that made people wonder what was going on.

5. There will be new psychological aspect.

I hoping so. If fear is the aspect for 'Begins' maybe it'll be 'Guilt 'for the escalation of crime in Gotham that Batman attracts.

6. New characters and their development

Same was true for BR. Too bad their was no new character development for Bruce Wayne/BAtman

7. I think Nolan knows about fans, who wanted to see a bit better action scenes in BB, so he will take it as advice working on the sequel

Action does not a good Batman sequel make. Of all the Batman movies made, BATMAN and ROBIN, has the most actio in it and you see what steaming pile of crap that is.

What makes 'Begins' such a great movie is how intelligent it is made and the action wasn't thrown in for good measue but done at the apporpiate time in the movie.

8. Nolan was always faithful to comics

Somewhat. but he strayed quite a bit.

Certainly he was true to them more than any previous directors to the Batman movies. But even he tweak them a bit.

First off, Henry Ducard was never some secrect identity for Ras as Ghul (which, by the way, they mispronounced threwout the movie) and it was the 'League of Assassinins' not 'Shadows', and Flass was never fat and sloopy (that was Bullock) he was tall and blonde. Where was Ubu or Talia?

Now, DON'T GET WRONG. I Think Nolan will do a great job. I've loved all his movies I've seen, but it's not impossible that he can make a disapointing sequel.

Batman movie sequels dirrectors have this as their legacy, so history says it could happen again. So be careful when you think it's impossible that is can't happen becasue we heard and seen this before.

And regardless if Nolan make a subpar sequel, he will forever have my eternal gradititude for 'Batman Begins'.

 

[StorminNorman]

1. Nolan had enough freedom, while he was working on BB, so there is no chance that he will turn into next Burton

Never say Never there is Always a chance. When Burton was given free reign to do the sequel..well you see what happend.

Nolan had more freedom than Burton did with their first Bat-films. Batman Begins was basically what Nolan saw a Batman Film should be - Burton saw Batman (89) as a Batman film that WB made it be.

2. Cast

Does that include Kathie Holmes? (Joke) And I think it's going to be "interesting" to see Ledger as the Joker.

Katie Holmes was fine in Batman Begins - she was simply the weak link in a very very very uber-good cast. That being said, Heath Ledger is one of the better actors in The Dark Knight.


3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie

Aa Screenwriter only. He's not wrting the story or consulting. Nolan's brother is writng the movie.

And this is very important.

Let me put it this way. Sam Hamm, who was the screenwrter for the first Batman, NEVER had it in his script that the Joker was going to kill Bruce Wayne's parente, but TIM BURTON wanted the Joker to do it, and it was put in the movie.

Actually you got that wrong. Goyer is going to get the "Story by" credit - he is NOT writing the screenplay.

4. It will be darker movie than BB, but not as dark as BR was, because I think everyone knows usual Nolan's vissual style (very dark, but not gothic)

The darkness wasn't the questionable factor in BR, it was the Tim Burton like Weirdness that made people wonder what was going on.

It was the darkness that caused the outrage among parents and the what not. [/quote]

See above.

 

[Cinemaman]

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

And it wasn't just the fanboys that was indifference about Batman Returns it was the fans and the movie going public in general.

And the main reason is becasue THE FORMULA for BR is so different from Batman.

BAtman was Dark and Gothic. Batman Returns was Dark and weird.

Penguins in the Sewers?
Alley Cats Resurrecting a women?
Max Shreix's Hair?
Remote control Penguins with bombs? (by the way where was all the people when they went to the Gotham Square)
A yellow Ducky as an escape vehicle?
Penguins as palbearer?

Was that A Batman movie or Pee Wee' Next adventure?


1. Nolan had enough freedom, while he was working on BB, so there is no chance that he will turn into next Burton

Never say Never there is Always a chance. When Burton was given free reign to do the sequel..well you see what happend.

2. Cast

Does that include Kathie Holmes? (Joke) And I think it's going to be "interesting" to see Ledger as the Joker.

3. Goyer is back, so we won't see only Nolan's movie

Aa Screenwriter only. He's not wrting the story or consulting. Nolan's brother is writng the movie.

And this is very important.

Let me put it this way. Sam Hamm, who was the screenwrter for the first Batman, NEVER had it in his script that the Joker was going to kill Bruce Wayne's parente, but TIM BURTON wanted the Joker to do it, and it was put in the movie.

4. It will be darker movie than BB, but not as dark as BR was, because I think everyone knows usual Nolan's vissual style (very dark, but not gothic)

The darkness wasn't the questionable factor in BR, it was the Tim Burton like Weirdness that made people wonder what was going on.

5. There will be new psychological aspect.

I hoping so. If fear is the aspect for 'Begins' maybe it'll be 'Guilt 'for the escalation of crime in Gotham that Batman attracts.

6. New characters and their development

Same was true for BR. Too bad their was no new character development for Bruce Wayne/BAtman

7. I think Nolan knows about fans, who wanted to see a bit better action scenes in BB, so he will take it as advice working on the sequel

Action does not a good Batman sequel make. Of all the Batman movies made, BATMAN and ROBIN, has the most actio in it and you see what steaming pile of crap that is.

What makes 'Begins' such a great movie is how intelligent it is made and the action wasn't thrown in for good measue but done at the apporpiate time in the movie.

8. Nolan was always faithful to comics

Somewhat. but he strayed quite a bit.

Certainly he was true to them more than any previous directors to the Batman movies. But even he tweak them a bit.

First off, Henry Ducard was never some secrect identity for Ras as Ghul (which, by the way, they mispronounced threwout the movie) and it was the 'League of Assassinins' not 'Shadows', and Flass was never fat and sloopy (that was Bullock) he was tall and blonde. Where was Ubu or Talia?

Now, DON'T GET WRONG. I Think Nolan will do a great job. I've loved all his movies I've seen, but it's not impossible that he can make a disapointing sequel.

Batman movie sequels dirrectors have this as their legacy, so history says it could happen again. So be careful when you think it's impossible that is can't happen becasue we heard and seen this before.

And regardless if Nolan make a subpar sequel, he will forever have my eternal gradititude for 'Batman Begins'.

You know what you should do? Start reading my posts.

Yeah, I said that BR didn't have new formula.

But also I said that, if I was wrong, then I can only say that Burton didn't choose right formula for sequel.

What? Are you kidding? I've just said that NOLAN HAD ENOUGH FREEDOM, WHILE HE WAS MAKING BB! So that is why he will not ake TDK as only his movie. Burton didn't have enough freedom, and that is why he made BR as only his movie.

Yes, I also have interest in Ledger. If he is Nolan's choice, I think he will do great job.

Yep, Goyer wrote only treatment, but it is enough.

Again, Nolan isn't Burton. Nolan was faithful to comics, Burton wasn't.

Again, Nolan isn't Burton.

Well, this question is very intersting, so I think Nolan will tell us what he is going to put in sequel.

Yep, but everything can be changed. Besides, Nolan said that Bruce Wayne/Batman is figure #1 in his trilogy.

Agreed.

I meant he was more faithful than other doirectors. Besides, even he put enough stuff from comics, I didn't want to see comic book on-screen, so there should always be some changes (but again logical changes).

I can understand you. But I think this trilogy have new fat. BB wasn't B89, and I hope the same will happen with TDK and 3rd movie

 

[Darknightnomis]

Katie Holmes was fine in Batman Begins - she was simply the weak link in a very very very uber-good cast. That being said, Heath Ledger is one of the better actors in The Dark Knight.

I was kidding SN, that's why I add the joke behind her name after I said it.

I'm actually one of those people that think she did hold her own against some pretty powerful actors in the movie.

And I DON'T WANT RACHAEL TO BE KILLED!

but to actually be in all the trilogy (if that's how many they'll make) as the feminine conscious of Bruce Wayne.

Actually you got that wrong. Goyer is going to get the "Story by" credit - he is NOT writing the screenplay.

Either way he was the main source the Nolan went to for 'Begins', Nolan says so in the DVD extra's interview. His input not being as prominant will be interesting in how this comes out.


It was the darkness that caused the outrage among parents and the what not.

I rememeber it was mostly the Penguin look and black goop coming out his mouth specifically that cause most of the outrage. As a matter of fact there was some kid supended from school for wearing a shirt with his image on it and the teachers thought it was some sort of 'Satanic image.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

If I remember correctly, Parents thought that Batman Returns was too dark and sexual for the kids to handle.

Well it was certified as '15'...

 

[Cinemaman]

If I remember correctly, Parents thought that Batman Returns was too dark and sexual for the kids to handle.

Yeah, that's right.

The Penguin looked too scary (for kids of course), while Catwoman was looking too sexy.

DARK+SEXY=NO KIDS