Why wasn't Prof X more aware of Pyro's potential?

not_a_victim

Sidekick
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
Messages
2,059
Reaction score
0
Points
31
Just watched it again on FX, and realized something, from the very begining of the movie, Pyro was showing his bad side. From the incident at the mall, to what happened at Bobby's house, Pyro was messing up big time, and the Prof never seemed too concerned with it.
Now, I know, he was tied up with Magneto and Jean's issues, but for the life of me, I can't understand how he could let a student get that far out of reach without pulling him back. Really, with all the other problems he was dealing with, I don't see why Prof X didnt just go into Pyro's mind, and send him on a little mental vacation until he could devote more time to dealing with him.
 
In the first incident, he disciplined the boys and presumably brought the trip to an end.

In the second, Xavier had already been abducted by this point and was in no position to reprimand the boy.

As for why Xavier didn't do what you suggest, before X3, Xavier had a moral code where he wouldn't screw around with someone's mind unless it was absolutely dire or he had permission. And really, one delinquent kid isn't necessarily cause for alarm. Teenagers are rebellious by nature. Some moreso than others. Doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna go evil.
 
Yes, I see your point(s), but I guess Pyro's unstable nature, combined with the deadly potential of his power, which seems to have no constructive use....I just would have thought that Prof would have had more control over him, or given him a more structured enviroment to work in.
Plus, it was soooooo easy for Magneto to sway him, by simply stroking him at the right time. I guess I was really looking for one of those "With great power comes great responsiblility." speeches. :whatever:
But, I guess one traitor was really required for the movie.
Not to argue, but Pyro was more than a deliquint kid. He was a deliquint kid who was probably the most deadly mutant around...
No sir, I don't like it.
 
Not just Pyro, either. What about poor old Jason? (Why does noone ever remember Jason? He's cool!:cmad:)
If Jason can control Xavier, he must be one of the most powerful mutants ever! Maybe the most powerful mind-affecting mutant on the planet! Why wasn't he brought into the X-Men, father or not?:huh:
 
To each his own.

Xavier is friends with Magneto, and even though he's on the opposite side, I suppose him seeing Pyro to go Magento's side was better than going to the truly "evil side." Besides, you can't force someone to be something their not and Xavier willingly let them choose their own path,
 
he didnt do anything about it because the writers didnt put it in the script!:cwink:
 
Interesting points.

The controlling Xavier as revealed in X3 would certainly have tried to control/suppress/help unstable students like Pyro or Jason.

But Xavier is at times strangely unaware or unconcerned. He showed no signs of being concerned about Jean in X2. Whether you accept that she underwent a natural evolution, or was breaking through mental barriers, he didn't seem that bothered about what she did outside the plane; and he wasn't shown sensing what happened at the museum when her telepathy fired up and her powers switched off the monitors, and he wasn't shown being concerned about it. He seemed pretty indifferent to it all, which didn't seem right at the time.
 
not_a_victim said:
Just watched it again on FX, and realized something, from the very begining of the movie, Pyro was showing his bad side. From the incident at the mall, to what happened at Bobby's house, Pyro was messing up big time, and the Prof never seemed too concerned with it.
Now, I know, he was tied up with Magneto and Jean's issues, but for the life of me, I can't understand how he could let a student get that far out of reach without pulling him back. Really, with all the other problems he was dealing with, I don't see why Prof X didnt just go into Pyro's mind, and send him on a little mental vacation until he could devote more time to dealing with him.

Prior to The Last Stand's retcon, Xavier wasn't in the business of invading his students' minds and doing as he pleased in order to cater to his notions of right and wrong. He reprimands Pyro at the museum and that is all that needs to be done. In so far as Jean Grey is concerned, like in the comics, her struggle with her power is very much her own. She wants to keep it to herself, and Xavier isn't going to randomly pry into her mind otherwise.

After The Last Stand, however, one wonders why Xavier didn't just do to Magneto what he did to Jean Grey. If anyone needs to be controlled, it's him. He proves himself just as angry and dangerous as the Phoenix . . . perhaps even moreso.
 
BMM said:


Prior to The Last Stand's retcon, Xavier wasn't in the business of invading his students' minds and doing as he pleased in order to cater to his notions of right and wrong. He reprimands Pyro at the museum and that is all that needs to be done. In so far as Jean Grey is concerned, like in the comics, her struggle with her power is very much her own. She wants to keep it to herself, and Xavier isn't going to randomly pry into her mind otherwise.

After The Last Stand, however, one wonders why Xavier didn't just do to Magneto what he did to Jean Grey. If anyone needs to be controlled, it's him. He proves himself just as angry and dangerous as the Phoenix . . . perhaps even moreso.


For Xavier to be aware of what Pyro is doing at the museum requires a general or invasive use of telepathy. If he was aware of what was happening in the food court without having to focus, then that sort of telepathic 'reach' would also be aware of Jean's headaches, telepathic flare-up and telekinetic surge affecting the monitors. If he had concentrated specifically on Pyro, Rogue or Iceman to find out what they were up to in the food court, then he is indeed prying into people's minds.

Furthermore, when Xavier is talking to Wolverine in X1, he says 'When i was a boy i discovered i could CONTROL people's minds and read their thoughts'. He doesn't speak of telepathy as a communication or environmental awareness or extra-sensory perception, he talks of it as a means of control and invasive prying. So his behaviour in X3 isn't really a retcon. Also, when he reprimands Wolverine in Cerebro, he talks of making Logan think he is a nine-year-old girl and having Jean braid his hair - although it's done in an almost humorous way, it does indicate that he would/could use his powers in a controlling way.
 
X-Maniac said:
For Xavier to be aware of what Pyro is doing at the museum requires a general or invasive use of telepathy. If he was aware of what was happening in the food court without having to focus, then that sort of telepathic 'reach' would also be aware of Jean's headaches, telepathic flare-up and telekinetic surge affecting the monitors. If he had concentrated specifically on Pyro, Rogue or Iceman to find out what they were up to in the food court, then he is indeed prying into people's minds.

Since when does it require psychic powers to see that one your students is setting people on fire? When is it ever implied that Xavier is forced to probe Pyro's mind in order to discover what's going on (he has eyes), especially when he is with Jean who has already sensed that something is happening in the food court. Furthermore, there is never a single indication that he is invading Iceman, Pyro, or Rogue's minds. It's not necessary.

X-Maniac said:
Furthermore, when Xavier is talking to Wolverine in X1, he says 'When i was a boy i discovered i could CONTROL people's minds and read their thoughts'. He doesn't speak of telepathy as a communication or environmental awareness or extra-sensory perception, he talks of it as a means of control and invasive prying. So his behaviour in X3 isn't really a retcon. Also, when he reprimands Wolverine in Cerebro, he talks of making Logan think he is a nine-year-old girl and having Jean braid his hair - although it's done in an almost humorous way, it does indicate that he would/could use his powers in a controlling way.

Yes, he says when I was a boy I discovered I could control people's minds. He doesn't say, as a man, I found that it was exceedingly fun and decided to continue to manipulate people in whatever manner I see fit. And yes, his joke in X2 is just that; a joke. It may indicate that Xavier can use his power in such a way, but the important thing is that he doesn't.
 
BMM said:
Since when does it require psychic powers to see that one your students is setting people on fire? When is it ever implied that Xavier is forced to probe Pyro's mind in order to discover what's going on (he has eyes), especially when he is with Jean who has already sensed that something is happening in the food court. Furthermore, there is never a single indication that he is invading Iceman, Pyro, or Rogue's minds. It's not necessary.

It requires psychic powers when you are not in the same room. Which he wasn't. He may be with Jean, but she doesn't specify what's happening in the food court. And of course Xavier mentally freezes the mind of everyone in that food court - are you telling me this isn't a form of control, that it was done with the knowledge and choice of everyone whose neural functions were paralysed?


BMM said:
Yes, he says when I was a boy I discovered I could control people's minds. He doesn't say, as a man, I found that it was exceedingly fun and decided to continue to manipulate people in whatever manner I see fit. And yes, his joke in X2 is just that; a joke. It may indicate that Xavier can use his power in such a way, but the important thing is that he doesn't.

I don't think he ever feels it is 'exceedingly fun'. But it's obvious he will take draconian measures when and where he feels it is necessary. Temporarily paralysing everyone in a museum and holding back information on Wolverine's past (as revealed in X2) certainly qualify as some form of control - and they were well before we hear of what he has done with Jean in X3.

Are you conveniently forgetting how the comicbook version has also been given some dark secrets and questionable methods too? Deadly Genesis, for instance. Xavier even faked his own death back in the very early comics so he could hide away and prepare for the invasion of the Z'Nox. You are familiar with the comics, so I don't know why the revelations of Xavier's more controlling side is so abhorrent to you as a concept.
 
X-Maniac said:
It requires psychic powers when you are not in the same room. Which he wasn't.


And you know this how? Where is it ever shown that Xavier cannot see what is going on in the museum? And where is it ever shown that he is in a different room altogether?

X-Maniac said:
He may be with Jean, but she doesn't specify what's happening in the food court. And of course Xavier mentally freezes the mind of everyone in that food court - are you telling me this isn't a form of control, that it was done with the knowledge and choice of everyone whose neural functions were paralysed?

Are you telling me that momentarily freezing people in place is the same as segmenting someone's mind, which ultimately causes it to be fragmented, ruining the said person's life, while attempting to keep it under wraps for several years?


X-Maniac said:
I don't think he ever feels it is 'exceedingly fun'. But it's obvious he will take draconian measures when and where he feels it is necessary. Temporarily paralysing everyone in a museum and holding back information on Wolverine's past (as revealed in X2) certainly qualify as some form of control - and they were well before we hear of what he has done with Jean in X3.

He holds back information on Wolverine's past so that Wolverine's mind can discover things for itself. The key point being that he doesn't want to interfere with Wolverine's personal issues that are better left for him to deal with.

X-Maniac said:
Are you conveniently forgetting how the comicbook version has also been given some dark secrets and questionable methods too? Deadly Genesis, for instance. Xavier even faked his own death back in the very early comics so he could hide away and prepare for the invasion of the Z'Nox. You are familiar with the comics, so I don't know why the revelations of Xavier's more controlling side is so abhorrent to you as a concept.

The notion of Xavier's more controlling dark side isn't abhorrent to me. It is undoubtedly present in the books, and definitely interesting if done properly. Although Xavier faking his death (which Jean was in-on) is hardly of the extent to what we're told he does to Jean Grey in The Last Stand. What bothers me is the fact that his "dark" side is poorly and randomly introduced via a sudden preponderance of exposition that ultimately detracts from the themes of one of the best X-Men arcs ever told and doesn’t quite jive with what is presented in the previous installments . . . which is probably why the maker of this thread is suddenly lead to question why Xavier didn’t just do to Pyro (or all bad mutants) what he did to Jean Grey?
 
BMM said:
And you know this how? Where is it ever shown that Xavier cannot see what is going on in the museum? And where is it ever shown that he is in a different room altogether?

Where is it ever shown Xavier CAN see what is going on in the museum or that he is in a different room. It very much looks like everyone freezes and then he and the others come into the food court.

BMM said:
Are you telling me that momentarily freezing people in place is the same as segmenting someone's mind, which ultimately causes it to be fragmented, ruining the said person's life, while attempting to keep it under wraps for several years?

Obviously it's not the same, but given the events of X3 it is a part of a greater picture - that he will use his powers in a controlling, forceful manner where he thinks it appropriate. There is even a deleted scene for X1 where Wolverine asks Jean if Xavier is holding her back. Xavier is obviously a man of strong beliefs - as he would have to be to set up a school and recruit and train other mutants - who does what he feels is right.


BMM said:
He holds back information on Wolverine's past so that Wolverine's mind can discover things for itself. The key point being that he doesn't want to interfere with Wolverine's personal issues that are better left for him to deal with.

And Magneto retorts in the prison, questioning if Xavier has kept quiet because he is frightened of losing another of his precious X-Men. Xavier and Magneto are not black-and-white characters, as well you know, but there are shades of grey. It's not a case of Xavier is good and Magneto is bad.


BMM said:
The notion of Xavier's more controlling dark side isn't abhorrent to me. It is undoubtedly present in the books, and definitely interesting if done properly. Although Xavier faking his death (which Jean was in-on) is hardly of the extent to what we're told he does to Jean Grey in The Last Stand. What bothers me is the fact that his "dark" side is poorly and randomly introduced via a sudden preponderance of exposition that ultimately detracts from the themes of one of the best X-Men arcs ever told and doesn’t quite jive with what is presented in the previous installments . . . which is probably why the maker of this thread is suddenly lead to question why Xavier didn’t just do to Pyro (or all bad mutants) what he did to Jean Grey?

Well, obviously Pyro didn't pose a danger and had/has no control issues. His defection to the Brotherhood in X2 was rather rapid to say the least - suddenly he was depicted as bitter and psychotic, none of which we'd seen in X1.

Xavier controls Jean because he believes she cannot control her power. His actions create a dark personality. If he hadn't put in mental blocks, the implication is that she could unintentionally have done something terrible, harmful, destructive, by using a limitless power that she could not wield safely and effectively. When they first met, she was brattish and arrogant, invading their thoughts and irresponsibly showing off by raising the cars in the neighbourhood, though she appeared to have no control issues in that scene itself. It was more about Xavier's fears if she could do such things so casually and arrogantly. One could argue that his guidance and controls helped (for a long time at least) to create a more benign, modest, disciplined woman who focused herself on medical studies and was cautious and responsible (overly so, perhaps) with her powers.

The general concept worked for me, given Xavier's darker side in the comics, the earlier hints in the movies of his more controlling aspects and the comicbook origin of Jean in which he blocks off her telepathy as a child after her childhood trauma.

But leaving it as a natural evolution of her powers could also have worked fine, with Xavier trying to control her after her powers spiralled out of control, rather than doing it pre-emptively.
 
But in all fairness, we saw next to nothing of him in the first film. One single scene. So it's not like he suddenly turned evil from good, it's that we suddenly saw who he was after a very brief cameo in the first movie.
 
Cyclops said:
But in all fairness, we saw next to nothing of him in the first film. One single scene. So it's not like he suddenly turned evil from good, it's that we suddenly saw who he was after a very brief cameo in the first movie.

Yea, I don't get why X-Maniac continues to think that there was actually some kind of characterization to Pyro in X-Men...
 
Nell2ThaIzzay said:
Yea, I don't get why X-Maniac continues to think that there was actually some kind of characterization to Pyro in X-Men...

He was portrayed briefly as a young, sweet-faced kid who playfully made a flame in the classroom. Then - bam - we get Aaron Stamford stepping in and the character becomes a psychotic brat. I know we hardly saw anything in X1 but it just seems such a gear-change in X2. Were Pyro's mental blocks removed as well?:hyper:
 
Nell2ThaIzzay said:
Yea, I don't get why X-Maniac continues to think that there was actually some kind of characterization to Pyro in X-Men...

Yep. Nothing about Pyro is revealed in X-Men save for the fact that he's a showoff who is reprimanded for his misuse of power . . . which is how we are introduced to him again in X2. Aside from that one scene, there's nothing else from which to draw upon regarding his character. The only thing that changed was the actor. In fact, if Stanford had been in that seat from the beginning, this wouldn't even be an issue.
 
BMM said:
Yep. Nothing about Pyro is revealed in X-Men save for the fact that he's a showoff who is reprimanded for his misuse of power . . . which is how we are introduced to him again in X2. Aside from that one scene, there's nothing else from which to draw upon regarding his character. The only thing that changed was the actor. In fact, if Stanford had been in that seat from the beginning, this wouldn't even be an issue.

He was not 'reprimanded for his misuse of power.'

He created a flame, showing off to Rogue, then Iceman froze it and the ice formation fell to the floor and smashed, alerting Storm. She reprimanded Pyro, when it really was also Bobby.

If we were reaching, we could perhaps say the reason Storm focused on Pyro was perhaps because he had a reputation for misbehaving. But the scene was really just a typical pupil/teacher scene in which one kid gets shouted at even when others are involved.
 
X-Maniac said:
He was not 'reprimanded for his misuse of power.'

He created a flame, showing off to Rogue, then Iceman froze it and the ice formation fell to the floor and smashed, alerting Storm. She reprimanded Pyro, when it really was also Bobby.

If we were reaching, we could perhaps say the reason Storm focused on Pyro was perhaps because he had a reputation for misbehaving. But the scene was really just a typical pupil/teacher scene in which one kid gets shouted at even when others are involved.

You can debate the semantics all you want (Bobby's involvement, Storm's exact knowledge of the situation, the manner in which Storm reprimands Pyro, etc.), but it still doesn't change the fact that Pyro is responsible for disrupting class because he is showing off, which ultimately stems from his decision to misuse his power.
 
BMM said:


You can debate the semantics all you want (Bobby's involvement, Storm's exact knowledge of the situation, the manner in which Storm reprimands Pyro, etc.), but it still doesn't change the fact that Pyro is responsible for disrupting class because he is showing off, which ultimately stems from his decision to misuse his power.


Pyro may have started it off, but Bobby became involved and caused a disruption of the entire class when the ice smashed on the floor. Bobby was hardly blameless.

Anyway, we should at least thank ourselves that this scene shows Pyro doing something creative with fire. Sadly, that's the one and only time Pyro used his power to create an unnatural shape/formation with the flames.
 
X-Maniac said:
Pyro may have started it off, but Bobby became involved and caused a disruption of the entire class when the ice smashed on the floor. Bobby was hardly blameless.

Right, but the point I'm getting at is that, regardless of the consequences (the class being disrupted), Pyro is still willing to conduct himself in an otherwise fairly inappropriate manner.

X-Maniac said:
Anyway, we should at least thank ourselves that this scene shows Pyro doing something creative with fire. Sadly, that's the one and only time Pyro used his power to create an unnatural shape/formation with the flames.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was actually thinking about this the other day. While Pyro's fire effects look quite nice in The Last Stand, I was hoping his previous explanation of being able to manipulate fire would have been capitalized on a bit more . . . especially after having joined Magneto and The Brotherhood. That being said, Pyro's one of the characters I really can't complain too much about.
 
BMM said:
I wholeheartedly agree. I was actually thinking about this the other day. While Pyro's fire effects look quite nice in The Last Stand, I was hoping his previous explanation of being able to manipulate fire would have been capitalized on a bit more . . . especially after having joined Magneto and The Brotherhood. That being said, Pyro's one of the characters I really can't complain too much about.

This is often what's been lacking in the X-movies - subtleties (and constructive uses) of the character's powers.

Magneto's had some subtlety (the Newton's Cradle effect on his desk in X1, the metal plates he uses to form a walkway to Kelly's cell, the extraction of iron from the prison guard and its manipulation) but his power has been limited to metal. There are other polar substances. For instance, by polarising the oxygen of the air, he could create a magnetic force field sphere of the kind seen in the comics and cartoons. Oxygen is paramagnetic, meaning it is magnetised by an external magnetic field but is normally not a magnetic material.

Storm began to get some subtlety in X3 - the balcony scene, the dissipation of the fog at Alkali Lane.... when they showed she could disperse weather as well as create it. But her awareness of atmospheric changes (sensing imminent rainfall for instance) was absent, as well as small-scale phenomena like a micro-storm to water her plants, or the manipulation of air pressure or air temperature.

And, of course, Pyro whose only creative moment was the fire sphere in X1.

Callisto and Arclight deserve more exploration with their powers too. Callisto's sensing of mutant energy auras could have been a cool visual that added texture to her powers, and Arclight's power to find the breaking-point frequency of any material also merits further exploration. Except she is dead. One hopes that Jean/Phoenix's final moments of redemption might have included some restoration of that which was atomised.
 
I'm sorry but Arclight hardly deserves anything.
 
Not just Pyro, either. What about poor old Jason? (Why does noone ever remember Jason? He's cool!:cmad:)
If Jason can control Xavier, he must be one of the most powerful mutants ever! Maybe the most powerful mind-affecting mutant on the planet! Why wasn't he brought into the X-Men, father or not?:huh:

the professors powers were suppressed at the time due to that halo thing around his head. Jason could invade his mind but it shows how powerful xavier is that he could provide some resistance
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"