The Dark Knight Will TDK Show Off Batman's Detective Skills?

[CFlash]

One of the things I've had a problem with in ALL the Batman movies is their lack of stressing the "detective" aspects of Batman's character and his intelligence. Superman once called Batman the most dangerous man in the world... this despite his lack of superpowers. But, you don't *really* get that vibe from the movies. They've thrown little tidbits here and there (Batman 1, Keaton briefly trying to figure out the toxins.... Batman Begins, Bale spying on people using a listening device). But none of the movies have *stressed* the "detective" aspects of his character.

In fact, when I was watching Sin City I kept thinking "man, I wish they made a Batman movie like this"... I don't mean with the uber-violence and CGI scenery, but with the "mystery" and classic detective noir vibe of the movie. The story in Sin City just screamed Batman in a lot of ways IMO.

Anyone else feel the same? How would you envision a good/better "Batman" movie play out? Would it be a detective/mystery type story (like Sin City, Frank Miller's Batman, and the old Batman comics) or would you prefer more the Vigilante "Crime Fighter" type story?

 

[StorminNorman]

What was the mystery in Frank Miller's Batman?

 

[Motown Marvel]

yeah, i defenitely agree that they really need to play up the detective angle. i dont expect some grand mysterious plan on the villians behalf for batman to try and solve...but when it comes to tracking criminals and recreating a crim scene and stuff like that would be rad. im also hoping they make batman more methodical and strict in his actions...most of the time (in the films) batman just comes off as a guy who can kick some ass in a fight...but his genius is rarely displayed.

What was the mystery in Frank Miller's Batman?

i think he's referring to marv tracking down cardinal roarke.

 

[Katsuro]

you know, when I read the title of this thread, my first thought was "Who's Detective Slant?"

But anyways, I agree that Batman needs to be more of a detective, but you gotta remember that he's just starting out. You don't just train with some ninjas and put on a batsuit and become the World's Greatest Detective. It takes time and experience. As these movies progress, I hope they show him gaining detective skills and becoming the "most dangerous man in the world".

 

[CFlash]

yeah, i defenitely agree that they really need to play up the detective angle. i dont expect some grand mysterious plan on the villians behalf for batman to try and solve...but when it comes to tracking criminals and recreating a crim scene and stuff like that would be rad. im also hoping they make batman more methodical and strict in his actions...most of the time (in the films) batman just comes off as a guy who can kick some ass in a fight...but his genius is rarely displayed.
i think he's referring to marv tracking down cardinal roarke.

You hit the nail on the head. You're right... I don't mean Riddler riddles thrown at Batman. Or Batman himself being the center of some corny criminal plan. A simple classic Batman detective noir style story.... with Ninja action included! ;-)

Seriously, Sin City did this type of "story" very well. Batman could do this even better IMO on the big screen.

 

[Motown Marvel]

i get what your saying with sin city...but i think some more along the lines of Se7en would work best, along with some detective gorin from law and order: criminal intent (cheap reference, but you know what i mean), and then toss in some of that hard boiled sin city noir.

 

[JoeBoxer]

you know, when I read the title of this thread, my first thought was "Who's Detective Slant?"

But anyways, I agree that Batman needs to be more of a detective, but you gotta remember that he's just starting out. You don't just train with some ninjas and put on a batsuit and become the World's Greatest Detective. It takes time and experience. As these movies progress, I hope they show him gaining detective skills and becoming the "most dangerous man in the world".

Your right, But the truth is that "Batman Begins" should have had his training in this field like forensic studies and Federal Bureau training etc. he was a very smart detective from the start and gets better throughout his years, but of course they portrayed him as a mere fighter. also in the movie they showed only a little bit of his martial arts trianing, which they should have shown more training with other teachers not just the League of shadows.

 

[Katsuro]

Your right, But the truth is that "Batman Begins" should have had his training in this field like forensic studies and Federal Bureau training etc. he was a very smart detective from the start and gets better throughout his years, but of course they portrayed him as a mere fighter. also in the movie they showed only a little bit of his martial arts trianing, which they should have shown more training with other teachers not just the League of shadows.

Yeah, but they only had less than an hour to tell the origin, so they showed what was neccessary for the film. And dont forget, he was a pretty damn good fighter even before he met Ra's al Ghul, so he obviously had some training before that. In the movie he was gone 7 years, and I think he met Ra's quite a ways into it. Who knows what he did before ending up in that prison?

 

[JoeBoxer]

I totally agree with the idea of Batman Being more of a detective than just a fighter. In the past they sort of already ignored that portrayal of Batman and we can only hope that they don't make the same mistake in the second Batman movie. Because that is part of what makes Batman so great, not just his ability to fight but his keen intelligence and his dark attitude. Also I think that in the second movie they should start making the Batman a little darker and more of a arrogant jerk and also start becoming obssesed with being Batman and his work. They also need to avoid exceeding homour otherwise they might end up as "Batman Forever" and "Batman and Robin", oh man thank god that's over lol.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Yeah, but they only had less than an hour to tell the origin, so they showed what was neccessary for the film. And dont forget, he was a pretty damn good fighter even before he met Ra's al Ghul, so he obviously had some training before that. In the movie he was gone 7 years, and I think he met Ra's quite a ways into it. Who knows what he did before ending up in that prison?

Could be a good chance for using flashbacks in BB2. Again, show what's relevant. If what we hear about BB2 is true, and the Joker is indeed going to have a scant amount of screentime, it will probably play out like this:
Batman, Harvey and Gordon investigate murders done by the Joker with flashbacks to Bruce's training years as he learns forensic/investigative skills, etc. The central plot is the MYSTERY surrounding the Joker's murders, and solving the mystery of who the Joker is. Either we find out or we don't. Joker is captured. End with the trial scene or start BB3 with the trial scene.

 

[JoeBoxer]

It would be nice to see some more training flashbacks not just martial arts but mental training aswell. Maybe introduce some Characters like Lady Shiva, etc.

 

[CFlash]

Could be a good chance for using flashbacks in BB2. Again, show what's relevant. If what we hear about BB2 is true, and the Joker is indeed going to have a scant amount of screentime, it will probably play out like this:
Batman, Harvey and Gordon investigate murders done by the Joker with flashbacks to Bruce's training years as he learns forensic/investigative skills, etc. The central plot is the MYSTERY surrounding the Joker's murders, and solving the mystery of who the Joker is. Either we find out or we don't. Joker is captured. End with the trial scene or start BB3 with the trial scene.

Ronny Shade, simply put, that is a brilliant idea. I hope the creators of BB2 are listening.

 

[Ronny Shade]

why thank you. I've been wracking my brains trying to figure out how to make Joker a mystery (We all know who he is...he's Joker, duh!) but the mystery could be who he is...what is his origin! Why didnt I think of that! It's the one thing about hime thats not definitive. Nobody can agree on it, as we've seen.

 

[JoeBoxer]

Here is another idea that might work. when it comes to joker doesn't any one think maybe it's a bit early to introduce joker, how about instead they only show a little of Red Hood and making him a minor untill the following movie where he comes back as Joker and a major character. Because I don't think Joker arrived right of the begining in Year One, wasn't there an order of villains that they introduced? this way they can get some more cameos of other characters.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I think its a perfect time to introduce Joker. If his origins are known, I want them to be a discovery. Joker has to show up as the Joker before we see him as anything else if we ever do see him as anything else.

 

[JoeBoxer]

Yeah i guess i just don't like the idea cramming him in right away to get people. But one thing is for sure they better not kill or get rid of him, in that case they would have to later show him at times/cameos whatever.
This brings the Question but did they kill Ras Al Ghul? They better not have they could have made a sory out of the pit, Talia and Bane.

 

[Ronny Shade]

They won't kill Joker. At least not yet. I believe Goyer was quoted saying something along the lines of "One of the mistakes of the old franchise was killing off established villains"

 

[CFlash]

Classic crime story. An elusive serial killer is on the loose whose murders are unusually sadistic and horrible. The killer also leaves behind his "calling card" trademark (as we see in the of BB1). The whole story is making the connections to The Joker (or somehow work in Red Hood) and why (if there even is a "why").

The question though is "what kind of Joker" should the Joker be?

1) Is the Joker a Mob hitman and these killings part of an organized crime "purge" like the end of Godfather?

2) Is he a serial killer? Serial killers can be ingenious, elusive, and horrifying. Look at BTK or even better John Wayne Gracy who was actually a clown!!! Like someone else commented... perhaps a "Seven" type story.

I don't know. But this might definately give the Batman On-screen franchise a big kick in the pants (moreso than BB1) and totally put it in a different league than the "comic book" movies of recent years.

The problem is that this type of story might totally alienate the younger audience. I'm not sure I would want that either. It's a tough one.

 

[JoeBoxer]

I don't know the young audience has had their share of General Batman.
also I would like to see either of those ideas of yours.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

i get what your saying with sin city...but i think some more along the lines of Se7en would work best, along with some detective gorin from law and order: criminal intent (cheap reference, but you know what i mean), and then toss in some of that hard boiled sin city noir.

It may be a cheap reference, but you're right. Bobby Goren is a creation of the best parts of the best detectives, ever. He's got some Columbo in him, some Holmes (maybe a lot of Holmes), a little of this a little of that, you know?

And Batman's like that, too. He's the best parts of everybody (a bit less quirky than Bobby, thank goodness) but he's definitely Holmesian as well. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more detective stuff either, though I have to admit that there was a lot more detective stuff in "Begins" than people seem to think. They just think all detectives are Sherlock Holmes, when in fact some are Marv. Or Sam Spade, or Spenser, or Dave Robicheaux, or whomever. Tough guy detectives.

 

[Taiwarriorz21]

I hope Commissioner Gordon is the same guy b/c I liked him Gordon

The bad detective was good, and i hope Joker pops him in the next movie

Arnold as Mr.Freeze would be cool later on

The movies were as good once they change Keaton. Christian Bale was good. Keep him!

 

[StorminNorman]

I hope Commissioner Gordon is the same guy b/c I liked him Gordon

The bad detective was good, and i hope Joker pops him in the next movie

Arnold as Mr.Freeze would be cool later on

The movies were as good once they change Keaton. Christian Bale was good. Keep him!

You know what, I am going to ignore the comment about Mr. Freeze and simply ask how does this at all address the question at hand?

 

[CFlash]

I hope Commissioner Gordon is the same guy b/c I liked him Gordon

The bad detective was good, and i hope Joker pops him in the next movie

Arnold as Mr.Freeze would be cool later on

The movies were as good once they change Keaton. Christian Bale was good. Keep him!

This post conjured up so many confusing feelings!
Yes, Gary Oldman was great as Gordon. He's also a great villain actor but I'm glad he's being used a good guy finally. NO Batman & Robin was not a good movie (mind you I actually liked Arnold and Uma's performances... they *almost* saved that movie) and neither were any of the ones after Keaton. Tim Burton's movies may not have been "perfect" but Shumaker completely destroyed the franchise.

I tried to watch Batman & Robin the other day "as a little kid." I loved the campy 60's Batman series when I was kid... and I tried to convince myself that Batman & Robin was a homage to that. But, no, it was just horrible. Sam Raimi with Spider-Man pays great homages to "camp".... but Batman & Robin was just a horrible horrible movie (great performances on the part of some of the actors notwithstanding).

But that's just my opinion. Different strokes, right! Batman as a character is so cool he's got something for everybody!

 

[StorminNorman]

Batman & Robin > Batman Forever IMO. Atleast B&R was straight camp, BF had an identity crisis - was it serious? was it camp? was it gay propaganda? B&R nailed the relationship between Bruce and Alfred, did fairly well in the relationship between Bruce and Dick and IMO Arnold and Uma did a better job with their villian than either Carrey or Tommy Lee Jones (I think Arnold did very well for the skript and is bashed only because he is an easy target).

 

[Katsuro]

I still want to see the edited version of Batman and Robin, where many of Freeze's campy lines are taken out. I hear it's a pretty decent performance without him saying "You're not takin' me to dah coolah!"