Wonder Woman 1984 General Discussion and Speculation - Part 2

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For next movie, I want them to go more fantastical route and have Wonder Woman fight a dragon. In comics WW had fought some dragons. I think a combination of The face of King Gidorah, Smaug and dragons Game of Thrones dragon would give us idea design of a dragon.

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Fan Art -
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800M alone fron China
 
But of the writers you mentioned, Johns has only written Wonder Woman in ensemble titles, and his grasp on her character is highly dubious to begin with. For most of his New JL run, he has written her as a stab happy lunatic. WW characters are naturally not going to be getting a lot of focus in such a setting, so Cheetah only getting a B plot in two of his issues when he already has a spotty record with WW herself means it's not so much a surprise that his Cheetah is underwhelming. That shouldn't be a black mark against her. Johns is also, IMO, not great with the other two members of the Trinity either. Which is fine, no writer can be considered a perfect match across the board.

Azzarello is not a black mark against her because he never used her. He wasn't interested in any of her old villains and focused on his own, the First Born and Cassandra. Neither of whom we will be seeing again any time soon.

Ares had Marston and Perez/Wein....but so did Cheetah. She is the second villain Diana faces in the Perez run. Ares also doesn't have much going on beyond the origin story, writers seldom know what to do with him to make him interesting, which is why the WW film had so little to work with and he was underwhelming. So she was part of those runs like Ares was.

Simone's run in general had promise and then petered out. It is liked by the WW fanbase, but not as highly regarded as others.

For Rucka, he didn't use her too much in his first run. She was however the deutragonist in his second run, and even detractors of the run think she's one of the better parts of it. And it seems to be one of the big influences for her movie counterpart.
When writers are working on their run, their goal is tell the best stories possible. To do that, they will use the characters they feel they have the best chance of achieving that with. Azzarello not being interested in the character is a black mark against the character, as well as lots of other WW villains, IMO.

The origin story, that Ares is the main villain of, and is used in lots of character comparisons and parallels with Diana, is the highest regarded story of that run, and is considered one of the very best WW stories ever. I like Cheetah in that run, but she does not play a significant role in the highest regarded stories of that run. She appears in the second big story for two issues out of seven, but most of that story is about the big challenges Diana has to face.

Simon's story The Circle is regarded as one of the very best WW stories, and like many of WW's highest regarded stories, her better known villains do not features or play a big role. Again, for me the consistency with which this happens says something negative about a lot of her villains.


I liked how Rucka used Cheetah as well. I thought she was a good character in that run, but it also strengthens my belief that she works best as a supporting character, rather than as the main villain. I think that the consistency with which top writers have either left her out, or struggled to have her play a large and significant role as the main villain in a highly regarded story suggests that it is not easy and that the character has a lot of flaws. Wonder Woman may not have as many top writers as Batman and Superman, but she has at least as much as any other DC character. Villains with as much or less top writers on them have played a large and significant role in some of the highest regarded DC stories, like Sinestro, Deathstroke and Reverse-Flash

s kind of unfair to compare with the Batman franchise in general, because Wonder Woman is not afforded nearly as much creative opportunities as Batman does. Of late, even Superman can't keep up. Batman gets top writers, so his villains get top treatment. Wonder Woman only gets a handful of top writers, not all of them are interested in using every character in her corner (including Cheetah), so ALL her villains are underdeveloped, along with her supporting cast. Things get worse when editorial keeps rebooting her.
I agree regarding Batman getting so much top writers, but I used those two villains (Bane and The Court of Owls) because they both managed to be the main villain in a highly regarded story in their first shot at it, which IMO further highlights the failures with Cheetah and other Wonder Woman villains, and the flaws that her villains have. The writers of those two stories (Knightfall and Court of Owls) are highly regarded, but they are not on a different level to the best writers WW has had.

But again, some writers put a lot of effort into WW, but their numbers are significantly fewer than other DC properties, and editorial doesn't keep things consistent with their efforts and will even undo them. Rucka's second run exists to undo Azzarello's run, which was divisive as well as popular while it rebootded things. Perez's run exists to reboot everything that came before it, including Marston. When Diana herself is hurting for universally beloved portrayals and consistency, it's not surprising that it gets worse the further you go into her cast.

WW still has as much or more top writers than all other DC characters, other than Batman and Superman. She has as at least as much highly regarded runs as every other DC character, other than Batman and Superman. Sinestro, Deathstroke and Reverse-Flash managed to play a large and significant role in a highly regarded run/and or story as the main villain, and none of them have had more top writers on them than WW, as the heroes they face are lower down the pecking order

But as I said already, Cheetah WAS a part of the Perez origin stories and in Rucka's latest run, so she has some popular takes under belt. It's DC's failure to capitalize on these takes that hurt her. The fact that she's been able to stick around for this long in some form or another proves that there is some potential in her, or else she'd be collecting dust along with the rest of the neglected WW rogues. The apathy towards them is far more damaging.

I liked her in both those runs and I agree that she has potential for more than what she has done, even as the main villain in a big story. My main argument is that while having potential, her quality in the comics has, for the most part, IMO, ranged from ok-good, but rarely, if ever, great. I think she should have played a large role in a highly regarded story as the main villain like other vilIains I have mentioned, who have had around the same amount or less top writers on them. I also feel that based on the comics, that a supporting role, either to the main villain or hero (like how she was used in Rebirth), is how she works best.
 
I would love to, i cant imagine the wait till June 2020, but SW is strong af, i dont know

June 2020 is ages away. It's a year and a half to go. Since WW84 starting filming in summer of 2018, it would be 2 years after filming that it comes out. It feels like it could lose its momentum with such a long gap, like Star Trek 09 did when Star Trek into Darkness came out long after (was it 4 years)?

WW84 would be 3 years after the first WW.
 
June 2020 is ages away. It's a year and a half to go. Since WW84 starting filming in summer of 2018, it would be 2 years after filming that it comes out. It feels like it could lose its momentum with such a long gap, like Star Trek 09 did when Star Trek into Darkness came out long after (was it 4 years)?

WW84 would be 3 years after the first WW.

I don't get the reason why they must release this in June.

Avengers was released on 11 th April 2012.
The Avengers Age of Ultron was released on 24 th April 2015.

So, any April release date could work very well.
 
Is better a good movie, maybe a little bit rushed after 2 years or a great movie after 3 years?
 
I've heard that the movie would have made it's previous release date just fine, it would have been tight, but it would have a complete film. They just wanted more time to perfect it. It's not that deep. There were issues with Aquaman that could've been worked out with more time. Don't you want a film to be the best it can be? Those who like to nitpick cgi and editing problems shouldn't have an issue with the June 2020 release date.
 
The sane and relistic part of me wants this ww84 to be standalone story, just make a good movie of diana and about diana.

But the other side of me curious will patty reconcile some pre-bvs questions in ww84 such as:
- diana killed beings from other worlds before, is there any other than ares?
- diana step away from humanity, will they explain it or just retcon?
- where's ww when zod invade earth?

I know i know! Effort to reconcile all those things might hurt the movie...
I know some people including myself just want to forget those questions and just enjoy a solid ww film.

Lol...but if only...
 
When writers are working on their run, their goal is tell the best stories possible. To do that, they will use the characters they feel they have the best chance of achieving that with. Azzarello not being interested in the character is a black mark against the character, as well as lots of other WW villains, IMO.

But if we use this logic, Azzarello's run is a black mark against the entire WW mythos, not just Cheetah. The only major character he used extensively beyond Diana herself was Hippolyta, and his take on her was...divisive, to say the least. Steve made one cameo out of necessity, but no Etta, no Donna Troy, no Cassie, no Dr. Psycho, no Circe, no familiar Amazon faces, etc. Ares was no longer a villain, and the Gods were re-imagined.

DC moving on from a lot of his new 52 additions is kind of a black mark on his run, not the other way around.

The origin story, that Ares is the main villain of, and is used in lots of character comparisons and parallels with Diana, is the highest regarded story of that run, and is considered one of the very best WW stories ever. I like Cheetah in that run, but she does not play a significant role in the highest regarded stories of that run. She appears in the second big story for two issues out of seven, but most of that story is about the big challenges Diana has to face.

Cheetah's first story is more of an interlude between the first two big arcs, but she comes back later to create the conflict that leads to the introduction of the Bana Amazons, whom many are speculating will be showing up in some capacity in this film. And while Ares's role in the classic origin story is highly regarded, the inability of writers to do anything with him after he fulfills his function in getting her off the island doesn't paint a good picture for him. Cheetah's already more versatile, Ares has really only one (important) story in him and then he's done. The starter villain is seldom the arch nemesis anyway.

Simon's story The Circle is regarded as one of the very best WW stories, and like many of WW's highest regarded stories, her better known villains do not features or play a big role. Again, for me the consistency with which this happens says something negative about a lot of her villains.

The Circle is well regarded, the rest of her run not so much. Including the parts the featured Ares (and Cheetah and Dr. Psycho, to be fair). Genocide in particular is considered a low point. The consistency with which the new villains come along is probably a good indicator that writers should maybe work with what we already have instead of coming up with new faces, because none of them stick. Veronica Cale got lucky that Rucka came back and Wilson will be using her, otherwise she'd be joining Alkyone, Genocide, the Crows, the First Born, Cassandra, Devastation and White Magician in the discard pile.


I agree regarding Batman getting so much top writers, but I used those two villains (Bane and The Court of Owls) because they both managed to be the main villain in a highly regarded story in their first shot at it, which IMO further highlights the failures with Cheetah and other Wonder Woman villains, and the flaws that her villains have. The writers of those two stories (Knightfall and Court of Owls) are highly regarded, but they are not on a different level to the best writers WW has had.

Bane and the Court are better compared to the likes of Alkyone and Genocide, as in they are new villains that get a lot of focus instead of re-using old faces. They are a success, whereas the attempts to give a similar villain(s) to WW results in failure. Cheetah sort of pre-dates this modern mentality of introducing big new villains that take up several arcs. She reached iconic status, along with Ares, Circe and Dr. Psycho, and Joker and Lex, more because she got used a lot and has stuck around. The vast majority of Batman and Superman villains stuck around for such reasons and were then used in big arcs because they were already fixtures. Bane got a big arc right out of the gate. He's a different beast.

WW still has as much or more top writers than all other DC characters, other than Batman and Superman. She has as at least as much highly regarded runs as every other DC character, other than Batman and Superman. Sinestro, Deathstroke and Reverse-Flash managed to play a large and significant role in a highly regarded run/and or story as the main villain, and none of them have had more top writers on them than WW, as the heroes they face are lower down the pecking order

I still don't really agree that's she's gotten more big name writers. or that, just because she has them, it doesn't mean they are a good fit for her or that they aren't tied by editorial. Azzarello's run was reviled by much of the fandom, and Simone was hampered by Amazons Attack! and being prevented from using Genocide's original origin. Plus, the biggest mark against WW is that the Silver Age hurt her a LOT. While everyone else was benefiting immensely from that renaissance, the writers will ill equipped to deal with Marston's bizarre creation, never mind that an independent female superhero had the odds stacked against her at that time. Flash and GL had better Silver Age writing than her, and she's been playing catch up ever since. They also get the likes of Waid, Johns and Morrison, all of whom are suited for the characters.
 
In sad news for me as a toy collector, apparently Mattel will lose the DC licence in early 2020. Instead a company called Spin Master will be producing DC action figures.

I’m worried that WW84 will get lost in the shuffle and we won’t see any toys or that Spin Master won’t have the time of expertise to produce quality toys for the sequel. Unless Mattel elects to release the toys well ahead of the movie, which wouldn’t be entirely unheard of.
 
In sad news for me as a toy collector, apparently Mattel will lose the DC licence in early 2020. Instead a company called Spin Master will be producing DC action figures.

I’m worried that WW84 will get lost in the shuffle and we won’t see any toys or that Spin Master won’t have the time of expertise to produce quality toys for the sequel. Unless Mattel elects to release the toys well ahead of the movie, which wouldn’t be entirely unheard of.
I had no idea about all this, Mattel is a big toy company, I doubt the new company "Spin Master" (never herad of it till now) has a good international distribution network for people living outside US. So, this sucks.
 
I'm not quite understanding the extended six month release date here. Either there's some reshoots going on somewhere, or DC/WB have lost the plot. Alike @Dark Raven , I fear like they're going to lose their momentum here.

- diana killed beings from other worlds before, is there any other than ares?
Depends what's defined as other worlds; is it possible (within the DCEU) that witches and sorcerers are from other worlds, or realms, in which case, maybe Circe is from one such world/realm, and no doubt Diana will kill her off. Ares too. Otherwise, somewhere between 1084 and 2018 an alien comes to Earth and Diana kills it before it kills her.

- diana step away from humanity, will they explain it or just retcon?
Well we don't quite know how much she's involved with humanity between the events of WW2 and 1984, or between 1984 and 2018.

- where's ww when zod invade earth?
Diana doesn't currently appear to have the gift of flight, so she can't just travel the world in an instant. What happened with Zod happened within a matter of days really. I doubt Diana had much time to react. The same argument (against her) could be used for the entire Atlantian civilisation, as they weren't remotely present during Zod's invasion either, but I suppose they thought he was a threat only to the surface (and they didn't care about the surface) and it wasn't until he started terraforming that it became too late for them to gather their forces and attack - and even if they had, by the time they'd become organised, Superman already had it sorted.
 
The other thing is that Atlenteans couldn't possibly have gauged how much of a threat Zod was, by the time they realized it, the war was already over.
 
Diana doesn't currently appear to have the gift of flight, so she can't just travel the world in an instant.

If only she had a supersonic invisible jet! :argh:

Seriously though, considering how Aquaman went comic book crazy and it worked, and the fact that Marvel has already done an "invisible" aircraft carrier/jet twice (Avengers and Spider-Man: Homecoming), AND the fact that she can't fly at least as of JL, I think Wonder Woman is owed the invisible jet, specially because Patty seems open to the idea of using it.
 
But if we use this logic, Azzarello's run is a black mark against the entire WW mythos, not just Cheetah. The only major character he used extensively beyond Diana herself was Hippolyta, and his take on her was...divisive, to say the least. Steve made one cameo out of necessity, but no Etta, no Donna Troy, no Cassie, no Dr. Psycho, no Circe, no familiar Amazon faces, etc. Ares was no longer a villain, and the Gods were re-imagined.

DC moving on from a lot of his new 52 additions is kind of a black mark on his run, not the other way around.
IMO, a lot of WW supporting characters have ranged from ok-good in quality, but rarely great. I think there have been struggles with a lot of them too (although I still like a lot of them). I don’t think her supporting cast is quite as strong as Batman or Superman’s. I think that Diana has been handled well consistently, despite this though and still has more quality in the comics than most other DC characters. I think a stronger supporting cast and villains would enhance her stories and world, however.


Just because a run is successful doesn’t mean that the next writer will want to work with what they have done, as they may have different ideas. Azzarello's run has featured in a list of the best comics ever on HollywoodReporter, which I think is a very respectable list. It has also featured in a list from 2016 on another site that I do not think I am able to provide a link for on this as I think it is forbidden. It was a list that was determined by fans voting for the best comic runs ever, and Azzarello's WW finished between 80-90, which is good, IMO. I think the run finishing on list like thoese back up that the run was well recieved, and that changes being made once the run was finished was not down to there being something negatibve about the run.

'Fantastic Four' by Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan - 100 Greatest Superhero Comics

Cheetah's first story is more of an interlude between the first two big arcs, but she comes back later to create the conflict that leads to the introduction of the Bana Amazons, whom many are speculating will be showing up in some capacity in this film. And while Ares's role in the classic origin story is highly regarded, the inability of writers to do anything with him after he fulfills his function in getting her off the island doesn't paint a good picture for him. Cheetah's already more versatile, Ares has really only one (important) story in him and then he's done. The starter villain is seldom the arch nemesis anyway.

But that story is not one of the highest regarded WW stories though. I do not think I have seen on any list, be it a fan-made one or a list on a site that discusses comics. I agree that there have been struggles with Ares. My opinion on his quality in the comics is similar to my opinion on Cheetah. I think it ranges from ok-good for the most part, but is rarely, if ever, great. Although I think Cheetah should have a big, highly-regarded story like Ares does though.

IMO, there are good arguments to be made for both Cheetah and Ares being her main villain. I like both of them, but from my experience, it would seem Cheetah is more popular with fans than Ares.

Bane and the Court are better compared to the likes of Alkyone and Genocide, as in they are new villains that get a lot of focus instead of re-using old faces. They are a success, whereas the attempts to give a similar villain(s) to WW results in failure. Cheetah sort of pre-dates this modern mentality of introducing big new villains that take up several arcs. She reached iconic status, along with Ares, Circe and Dr. Psycho, and Joker and Lex, more because she got used a lot and has stuck around. The vast majority of Batman and Superman villains stuck around for such reasons and were then used in big arcs because they were already fixtures. Bane got a big arc right out of the gate. He's a different beast.

IMO, the reason Cheetah and other WW villains are not used much as the main villain in big stories as much as others is because writers do not think the characters have enough going for them to carry a story like that.

I still don't really agree that's she's gotten more big name writers. or that, just because she has them, it doesn't mean they are a good fit for her or that they aren't tied by editorial. Azzarello's run was reviled by much of the fandom, and Simone was hampered by Amazons Attack! and being prevented from using Genocide's original origin. Plus, the biggest mark against WW is that the Silver Age hurt her a LOT. While everyone else was benefiting immensely from that renaissance, the writers will ill equipped to deal with Marston's bizarre creation, never mind that an independent female superhero had the odds stacked against her at that time. Flash and GL had better Silver Age writing than her, and she's been playing catch up ever since. They also get the likes of Waid, Johns and Morrison, all of whom are suited for the characters.

What writers do you think are suited to her? She has had a lot more top writers than most, IMO. I think if lots of top writers are not suited to her, then it is not good for the character. She does not have any adaption that is particularly highly-regarded either. Not every top writer will do a good job with a character, run or story, but I would there has been enough for Cheetah have gotten a big story at this stage. It was enough for Ares and Alkyones. Riddler only recently got Zero Year, and he like Cheetah had struggled for a long time to have played a big role in a big, highly-regarded story though, so it could happen for Cheetah eventually.

WW is the third or at worst fourth most popular DC hero, so i do not think the silver age has held her back more than the vast majority of other characters.
 
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I expect WW's powers to be in line with the first film and anything in JL to be completely ignored in WW1984. The character was regressed to be a love sick school girl with weird power dynamics. Just ignore it.
 
If only she had a supersonic invisible jet! :argh:

Seriously though, considering how Aquaman went comic book crazy and it worked, and the fact that Marvel has already done an "invisible" aircraft carrier/jet twice (Avengers and Spider-Man: Homecoming), AND the fact that she can't fly at least as of JL, I think Wonder Woman is owed the invisible jet, specially because Patty seems open to the idea of using it.
It probably is warranted, but how does she get it? it's not as if Themyscira is a technological civilisation. If the DCEU continues with their team building, it wouldn't surprise me if Bruce (or even Arthur?) provide her with some form of air transport that has the ability to cloak. Again though, she can't have said vehicle in a prequel because it's never appeared since, and the technology simply isn't there from her homeland.

She did some floating during the finale of the first film, so the possibility of her developing flight is there.
Developing flight, yeah, but she didn't use flight in BvS or JL, so if she was to develop it, it would need to be in a film based after 2018.
 
It probably is warranted, but how does she get it? it's not as if Themyscira is a technological civilisation. If the DCEU continues with their team building, it wouldn't surprise me if Bruce (or even Arthur?) provide her with some form of air transport that has the ability to cloak. Again though, she can't have said vehicle in a prequel because it's never appeared since, and the technology simply isn't there from her homeland.

Developing flight, yeah, but she didn't use flight in BvS or JL, so if she was to develop it, it would need to be in a film based after 2018.
No she can just say she only flies when she wants to or oh I just recently learned how to.
 
We can do a run down of many inconsistencies of character and super powers that WW had in her solo film that she didn't in bvs and jl. WW84 will be a different film and is focused on growing her character from her solo movie.

Aquaman was doing all kinds of things he didn't do in JL too. Even has a different eye color. Who cares at this point?
 

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