Wonder Woman villains: a discussion thread

It's pretty simple, Rich was a rich girl who is jealous and cray cray while Minvera was cursed by a god trying to obtain the power and immortality.

Priscilla was an archaeologist for all of 1 issue in 2009, apart from that it I believe was never part of the character.

If they use Priscilla they would be forced to practically merge the two to a degree since she has to be a physical threat for WW. I don't think she was ever really given any powers by anyone whereas Barbara can go toe2toe with Diana in both brains and brawn.
 
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It's pretty simple, Rich was a rich girl who is jealous and cray cray while Minvera was cursed by a god trying to obtain the power and immortality.

But I've been trying to reverse engineer why despite Cheetah having a long history and interesting angle, never got any really attention in the DCU as one of Diana's main rogues. Both Ares and Circe have had whole episodes dedicated to them but Minerva got zilch.

She's always a henchmen/Legion of Doom level story. Even Black Manta gets more recognition.
 
If they use Priscilla they would be forced to practically merge the two to a degree since she has to be a physical threat for WW. I don't think she was ever really given any powers by anyone whereas Barbara can go toe2toe with Diana in both brains and brawn.

Nah. She can just get it from an artifact minus the plant god stuff.
 
But I've been trying to reverse engineer why despite Cheetah having a long history and interesting angle, never got any really attention in the DCU as one of Diana's main rogues. Both Ares and Circe have had whole episodes dedicated to them but Minerva got zilch.

She's always a henchmen/Legion of Doom level story. Even Black Manta gets more recognition.

Gods were always more interesting to them then any version of Cheetah and 99% of WWs baddies that aren't divine. Ares is WWs MAIN bad guy and most well known just as Manta is Aquamans main bad guy.

WW didn't even get a proper origin in the DCU, it was 2 minutes and BAM! She is WW.

That's always been a problem with WW though, it's ever changing. Ares/Hades/Hercules have all been the Amazons big bad at one point in time depending on the show/comic. Hell Hippolyta has had relationships with all of them because they cant get it straight.
 
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Gods were always more interesting to them then any version of Cheetah and 99% of WWs baddies that aren't divine. Ares is WWs MAIN bad guy and most well known just as Manta is Aquamans main bad guy.

WW didn't even get a proper origin in the DCU, it was 2 minutes and BAM! She is WW.

This is what I was trying to get to with this discussion. Cheetah is going to need some work even using the werecat design.

Apocalypse and Venom share the same problem of being iconic characters because of visuals(costumes, black suit Spidey, metal wings Archangel) but their motivations are very banal so it makes sense why their movies were on weak footing.

So what about Cheetah needs to be worked on assuming the werecat design is go? Is her motivation too small in comparison to her level of strength? etc?


That's always been a problem with WW though, it's ever changing. Ares/Hades/Hercules have all been the Amazons big bad at one point in time depending on the show/comic. Hell Hippolyta has had relationships with all of them because they cant get it straight.
LOL.

Hippolyta that hussy!
 
What some fans seem to forget is that most of the general audience has little to no deep familiarity with WW's mythos/villains. So when people say "well so and so character is going to need a lot of work," I don't really think that that's necessarily the case. There is no ingrained bias for or against characters by anyone EXCEPT more hardcore comic book fans.

Also we've seen over and over and over and over and over again that the GA WILL buy into really weird stuff if you present it well. It's like we do this same thing every year. Some people go "well the audience won't except that, it's too out there or stupid." And then the movie comes out and, surprise surprise, the audience DOES buy into it.

Really some people are making things far more complicated than they really need to be.
 
I don't think Cheetah really needs any work. Her motivation is simple enough. The only thing they would have to worry about is getting the audience to feel for her before turning her into Cheetah.
 
What some fans seem to forget is that most of the general audience has little to no deep familiarity with WW's mythos/villains. So when people say "well so and so character is going to need a lot of work," I don't really think that that's necessarily the case. There is no ingrained bias for or against characters by anyone EXCEPT more hardcore comic book fans.

Also we've seen over and over and over and over and over again that the GA WILL buy into really weird stuff if you present it well. It's like we do this same thing every year. Some people go "well the audience won't except that, it's too out there or stupid." And then the movie comes out and, surprise surprise, the audience DOES buy into it.

Really some people are making things far more complicated than they really need to be.

There will be work needed.

There are no Killing Jokes or Long Halloweens to pull from for Wonder Woman. It's really just Perez/Rucka and maybe Jimenez.

How much does Dr. Poison resemble anything from the comics? She wasn't carrying the movie so it really didn't matter.

Cheetah or any WW villain being asked to carry a movie themselves as villain will be coming in to a version of WW that isn't in the same place as the comics. The Greek Gods aren't major factors in her origin so there's no familiarity with them to build a greek mythology angle from jump. We don't really know anything about what Diana has been through or is at in current times to make a foil villain ala Joker/Black Adam.
 
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I voted for Circe, played by Angelina Jolie to bring in some star power for the sequel and bump up those already solid overseas numbers!
 
I voted for Circe, played by Angelina Jolie to bring in some star power for the sequel and bump up those already solid overseas numbers!

Jolie would collapse into bones and dust if Gal - or anyone, really - so much as shook her hand.
 
I don't think Cheetah really needs any work. Her motivation is simple enough. The only thing they would have to worry about is getting the audience to feel for her before turning her into Cheetah.
That's assuming they'd be using the most recent version of the Barbara Minerva character, which I've never much cared for. I'd much rather see somebody with their own goals and who is unapologetic, rather than trying to turn her into yet another "friend of the hero turned evil".

But I've been trying to reverse engineer why despite Cheetah having a long history and interesting angle, never got any really attention in the DCU as one of Diana's main rogues. Both Ares and Circe have had whole episodes dedicated to them but Minerva got zilch.

She's always a henchmen/Legion of Doom level story. Even Black Manta gets more recognition.
If by "episodes" you're referring to JLU, I would say that's because JLU was absolute crap at handling the Wonder Woman mythos. Ares was the only one of Diana's rogues who was actually used in relation to her (and not well).

But getting back to the original comparison, Minerva has a more threatening design and a much more story-ready concept (or concepts), between the tomb raider stuff and (if they want to use it) making her Diana's friend (but that would be hard to do in one movie).
 
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I think its fits perfectly with her.Ancient Sorceress leading an Evil cult.Perfect fit.

Making the Evil cult similar to ISIS was my idea of making them feel contemporary and modern.

Circes man beasts wld also be a part or aid this cult

Yeah, what the evil cult does is so important. If this is an evil cult that is all about helping Americans balance their budgets, that is not a perfect fit for the misandrist animal-making Circe, just because you use the word cult.

Cheetah has the powers of a god, that's why she can go toe to toe with WW. This idea of "well she's a werecat, so we cannot do this," or "well it wouldn't be believable" or whatever, is nonsense pure and simple. Jeez, and some fans accuse screenwriters/filmmakers of "being uncreative" or "lacking imagination."

Visual language is not nonsense. If being a cat doesn't help tell the story of someone with godly powers, then it's bad storytelling.

People finding a little bunny rabbit "with the power of the gods" funny or ridiculous isn't a lack of imagination, it's simply people associate bunny rabbits with bunny rabbit levels of power. Imagination doesn't change a life of experience with images of bunny rabbits. The burden of creativity lies upon the storyteller to know their audience and create a story of a godly bunny rabbit that accounts for that many people may see it as ridiculous or odd and to account for their god-cat with creativity, and not expect the audience to do their job for them.

We haven't really talked about casting for Circe yet. Who should play her? Juliane Moore? Frances Mcdormand? Daryl Hannah?

I am all for stunt casting like Lucy Lawless
 
Here's my post from the other thread on how I'd handle Circe and Cheetah. Note: I'd probably make sure Circe was more clearly malevolent.

How about this; Diana has turned her job at the Louvre into a kind of search and neutralize job for various magical artifacts, and has as her coworkers and allies Barbara Minerva and Donna Sandsmark/Troy (you pick). She has an ongoing conflict with Circe over these artifacts, who's the villain in the sense she drives the conflict, but doesn't really have a regular personal beef with Diana, and is constantly throwing monsters made out of regular civilians at them. Circe also spends a good portion of the film interacting with Diana using illusions; since they're two of the last Olympian-powered immortals on Earth, she's the only one that Circe views as a peer, and they get a really weird rapport that's part friendly and part enemy.

Meanwhile, Barbara starts getting a little jealous of the power the two immortals have, with Circe really rubbing it in with taunts and attacks. She starts to use a cursed animal skin to give herself some abilities, and joins the battle. Diana confronts her because the bloodlust she gets from the cheetah skin makes her hunt and kill Circe's creations. Barbara refuses to relinquish the skin and its power, and her enhanced sense reveal something; they're friend Donna is Circe is disguise. And Diana knew it; she's been trying to get Circe to see humanity the way she does, especially by giving her help with her young daughter, Cassandra Sandsmark/Donna Troy, who's her daughter with Ares (timeline troubles can be resolved simply using Circe's powers.)

So, Barbara gets ticked and attacks them both in the Louvre, fully embracing the Cheetah personality. Circe gets wounded, and strikes back against Cheetah by cursing her skin to make her even more beastial and merge with her, which allows Diana to outsmart and capture her. A dying Circe is taken to Themiscyra to be healed, and Diana takes over raising her daughter. Cheetah is imprisoned, but we can see her getting back some of her control and seething at Diana's betrayal.

Sorry, I like doing pitches.
 
Visual language is not nonsense. If being a cat doesn't help tell the story of someone with godly powers, then it's bad storytelling.

People finding a little bunny rabbit "with the power of the gods" funny or ridiculous isn't a lack of imagination, it's simply people associate bunny rabbits with bunny rabbit levels of power. Imagination doesn't change a life of experience with images of bunny rabbits. The burden of creativity lies upon the storyteller to know their audience and create a story of a godly bunny rabbit that accounts for that many people may see it as ridiculous or odd and to account for their god-cat with creativity, and not expect the audience to do their job for them.
Cheetah = very fast, sharp claws, animalistic. People would be afraid if a cheetah was coming at them. Are cheetahs superhumanly strong? No, but neither are people, and yet Diana works fine.

A werecat is much more intimidating than somebody who looks like the fourth member of Josie and the Pussycats.
 
Cheetah = very fast, sharp claws, animalistic. People would be afraid if a cheetah was coming at them. Are cheetahs superhumanly strong? No, but neither are people, and yet Diana works fine.

A werecat is much more intimidating than somebody who looks like the fourth member of Josie and the Pussycats.

I hope you guys are right. Cause I have the funny feeling that the green light on Cheetah will go down for the same reason we still haven't had a fully speaking Hulk. Talking animal monsters aren't cool. Like Bebop/Rocksteady level threatening.

Wolfman in the shadows growling is scary.
Wolfman in daylight talking angry is Beauty and the Beast (Ron Perlman version).


If by "episodes" you're referring to JLU, I would say that's because JLU was absolute crap at handling the Wonder Woman mythos. Ares was the only one of Diana's rogues who was actually used in relation to her (and not well).

But getting back to the original comparison, Minerva has a more threatening design and a much more story-ready concept (or concepts), between the tomb raider stuff and (if they want to use it) making her Diana's friend (but that would be hard to do in one movie).

The cartoons stem from the comic. I don't think Cheetah's ever been seen as having a threatening motivation. She's more Scarecrow level villain but is one of Diana's big rogues which leaves things a bit irregular in terms of getting a story for her.

The whole tomb raider thing can fall too easily into plot driven mechanics and less clashing ideas unless handled right.
 
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I hope you guys are right. Cause I have the funny feeling that the green light on Cheetah will go down for the same reason we still haven't had a fully speaking Hulk. Talking animal monsters look ridiculous. Like Bebop/Rocksteady level threatening.
The DCEU already has Killer Croc in it, and that didn't seem to be a problem.

Also, at least in the Perez stories, the Cheetah form didn't talk, if that's your biggest concern.

The cartoons stem from the comic.
No, they don't. The JLU Cheetah didn't even try to adapt anything in relation to any version of the character as she'd existed, nor did she even meaningfully interact with Wonder Woman.

JLU sucked at handling everything to do with Diana's mythos, from the cipher Amazons to the handful of her villains that showed up (except the irreverent take on Circe, and Diana wasn't even really involved in that story).
 
Some people seem to mistake "I personally think that it looks ridiculous" with "the audience as a whole will." And sorry, but those aren't the same thing. And we've done this same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Fans claimed that "the audience will never buy that, it looks too goofy/ridiculous." And then, the audience DOES end up buying it and said fans look foolish.

You'd think that after this has happened so many times that fans would learn to stop making knee-jerk assumptions like that. But they never seem to learn their lesson apparently.
 
Some people seem to mistake "I personally think that it looks ridiculous" with "the audience as a whole will." And sorry, but those aren't the same thing. And we've done this same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Fans claimed that "the audience will never buy that, it looks too goofy/ridiculous." And then, the audience DOES end up buying it and said fans look foolish.

You'd think that after this has happened so many times that fans would learn to stop making knee-jerk assumptions like that. But they never seem to learn their lesson apparently.

Point to me where I made that statement?

I'm specifically referring to her difficulty in terms of character motivations and mechanics. I didn't say the character is too silly to be used. Saying a character "needs work" or "which version to adapt" isn't anywhere close to this is silly.


I'd argue that coming predisposed to the idea that "this is way scarier/better than this" limits the imagination to how other options could be utilized or reimagined.

If someone just decided that split personality Two-Face is more rich of character than a simple burn victim wouldn't have made TDK.
 
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The DCEU already has Killer Croc in it, and that didn't seem to be a problem.

Also, at least in the Perez stories, the Cheetah form didn't talk, if that's your biggest concern.

I'm not sure "two line" Killer Croc in an ensemble SS movie refutes my point or reinforces it cause that's exactly the role Cheetah has been refined to in her appearances in cartoons and comics.

That's part of the problem I'm trying to talk about. A silent villain isn't a good villain. WW isn't a horror movie. You need to have the character speaking in the middle of a fight. You can't have half her screen time in silence with no back and forth with Diana.

No, they don't. The JLU Cheetah didn't even try to adapt anything in relation to any version of the character as she'd existed, nor did she even meaningfully interact with Wonder Woman.

JLU sucked at handling everything to do with Diana's mythos, from the cipher Amazons to the handful of her villains that showed up (except the irreverent take on Circe, and Diana wasn't even really involved in that story).

Cause they don't see the appeal in the comic version? The comic writers have failed to adequately make the case for her character in several iterations. So why would the cartoon writers?


Look at what Johns did for Flash's Rogue Gallery. Captain Cold is used as a villain outside of Flash tv show now cause Johns put in the work to make the character interesting in his own right.
 
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Sorry, I like doing pitches.

I could really enjoy that. I think Circe and Cheetah is the way to go, and doing Circe as someone friendly ose in a way could be really cool and unique. Having both of her coworkers being the supervillains seems a bit much though.

I also like doing pitches, no apologies necessary.

Cheetah = very fast, sharp claws, animalistic. People would be afraid if a cheetah was coming at them. Are cheetahs superhumanly strong? No, but neither are people, and yet Diana works fine.

A werecat is much more intimidating than somebody who looks like the fourth member of Josie and the Pussycats.

Diana's not a person though, she's a god. And to show that she's a god, they don't make her look like an animal, or a milkman, they make her look like all the other gods we've seen, which happens to look just like a person, incidentally.

Yes, Minerva is more intimidating than Rich, but when I look at Cheetah vs Wonder Woman fights even in animation, Wonder Woman looks nerfed in order to maintain the idea that a werecat is going toe to toe with the woman who killed Ares.

Again, it is doable: it is possible to create the idea of a cheetah god with an avatar in Minerva for the audience as something new and different. But you have to keep in mind that you're creating this to appeal to the audience in a new way, just as the creators of the Hellenistic gods did. If Homer had just come out with the Illiad as if the audience's job is to have imagination, modern literature would be quite different.

I hope you guys are right. Cause I have the funny feeling that the green light on Cheetah will go down for the same reason we still haven't had a fully speaking Hulk. Talking animal monsters look ridiculous. Like Bebop/Rocksteady level threatening.

Wolfman in the shadows growling is scary.
Wolfman in daylight talking angry is Beauty and the Beast (Ron Perlman version).

Hehe, yeah, talking animals can go cartoony real easily.

The DCEU already has Killer Croc in it, and that didn't seem to be a problem.

Killer Croc doesn't actually look like a crocodile, it was just the skin. A guy with a croc-like snout would have been hilarious. Of course, Croc was mostly played for comedy anyway with his minimal lines. IIRC, his main contribution to the team was not superior strength, like in comics, but using his croc-powers of swimming to plant a bomb.

Some people seem to mistake "I personally think that it looks ridiculous" with "the audience as a whole will." And sorry, but those aren't the same thing. And we've done this same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Fans claimed that "the audience will never buy that, it looks too goofy/ridiculous." And then, the audience DOES end up buying it and said fans look foolish.

You'd think that after this has happened so many times that fans would learn to stop making knee-jerk assumptions like that. But they never seem to learn their lesson apparently.

So, I'm sure there are knee jerk reactions out there, my reaction comes from an analysis of how Cheetah is adapted in cartoons, and how other animal characters are adapted into live action films. That is how I developed my solution to the problem others have failed or neglected to solve, which is not what we usually see when people dismissively say "that will never work." It has little to do with my personal views on what is silly or not. I have no problem with little bunny rabbits suplexing the man of steel, I would certainly enjoy that kind of ridiculousness to no end. However, I also understand why some characters tend to be comedic to audiences, and why comedic characters are so rare in dark heavy dramas.
 
Basically, you need to make her scary. She can talk, but have it be minimal like it's a hindrance for her to communicate in any way but animalistic.
 
Cause they don't see the appeal in the comic version? The comic writers have failed to adequately make the case for her character in several iterations. So why would the cartoon writers?
There have been any number of very compelling Cheetah stories in the comics.

That JLU's writers weren't interested is on them, not the comics (and, as I noted, the JLU writers were bad at all aspects of Wonder Woman's mythos, not just Cheetah).
 

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