Worst Brock Ever

[Tangled Web]

Vincent D'onofrio would have been a better Brock than Topher.

 

[Iglius]

Anthony Michael Hall could have been a good choice as well, but don't think I'm not supporting Topher anymore.

 

[dodus]

Yes we can. Vulture, Mysterio, Ock, Chameleon, Goblin, Boomerang, Electro, Carnage and Spidey himself. None of these characters have massive physiques. Not only does this differentiate Venom but Eddie has stated the importance of his strength several times. The symbiote feeds off Eddie's adrenaline. The symbiote gets stronger as Eddie gets stronger. Eddie also stated ( thinking to himself about Spidey ) "you don't get your strength from muscle. I do"
Furthermore, Venom would later state to Spidey that the reason Carnage was so powerful was the the red symbiote "took" Brock's strength and added it to Kassady's. So Raimi is possibly screwing up another character.

You're missing my point. These characters aren't drawn with massive physiques? Who, since Steve Ditko has drawn anyone in the Spider-man lexicon without imposing physiques? What comic book characters in general, where size and strength are not an intrinsic part of the character, or otherwise singled out as important, are NOT drawn with imposing physiques anyway? In comics it's not a question of who has big muscles and who doesn't but of the degree of big muscles attached. Everybody gets the muscle treatment. And everybody, Vulture, Mysterio, Ock, Chameleon, Goblin, Boomerang, Electro, Carnage and Spidey included, are all bigger than Topher Grace, or me for that matter, and my weightlifting habits are much more akin to Brock's than anyone in the above list.

Yes, I see what you're getting at. Brock's size/strength isn't, like everyone else's arbitrary. It gets discussed, implemented in story arcs, justified. The pretty muscles aren't just scenery--they're an actual facet of his character. Not arguing that. But the fact remains that taken into perspective they don't REALLY differentiate him a whole lot from other comic book characters. Not like other facets of his character do--the origin, the psychology. Out of all the things going on with the character Venom, the fact that he is stacked is the least enigmatic, the least interesting, and the least important.

 

[Lantern Venom]

You're missing my point. These characters aren't drawn with massive physiques? Who, since Steve Ditko has drawn anyone in the Spider-man lexicon without imposing physiques?

Spidey's rogue gallery is composed moslty of athletic looking villians but not hulking brutes like Venom. It's no accident that he stands out physically.


Yes, I see what you're getting at. Brock's size/strength isn't, like everyone else's arbitrary. It gets discussed, implemented in story arcs, justified. The pretty muscles aren't just scenery--they're an actual facet of his character. Not arguing that. But the fact remains that taken into perspective they don't REALLY differentiate him a whole lot from other comic book characters. Not like other facets of his character do--the origin, the psychology. Out of all the things going on with the character Venom, the fact that he is stacked is the least enigmatic, the least interesting, and the least important.

Venom's psychology is irrevocably tied to his size. He ends up at the church after years of obsessive weightlifting fails to alleviate his stress from a lifetime of rejection and failure. It was his last desperate effort that not only brought him to the breaking point but also made him the perfect phyiscal specimen for the symbiote. This is an absolutely essential part of the character's origin.

 

[The Female Torch]

Does anyone else feel that picking the toothpick of a man from that 70's show to be Brock was a bad idea?

Gee you think?

He's not even cute

He's going to FLUNK.

And Raimi will go out of business

 

[dodus]

Venom's psychology is irrevocably tied to his size. He ends up at the church after years of obsessive weightlifting fails to alleviate his stress from a lifetime of rejection and failure. It was his last desperate effort that not only brought him to the breaking point but also made him the perfect phyiscal specimen for the symbiote. This is an absolutely essential part of the character's origin.

It's a good point, but I'm still not convinced that a compelling story couldn't have been told with years of obsessive something else, for example, years of obsessive martial arts training, or years of obsessive bum-mutilating, or years of obsessive crocheting. Unfortunately, since this story is going to be told in a 2.5-hour movie, we're probably not going to have time for years of anything. So who can blame Raimi for the fact that he's focusing on the other character aspects instead of on how Brock turned into a hulking bodybuilder? It doesn't fit the mechanics.

 

[Lantern Venom]

It's a good point, but I'm still not convinced that a compelling story could have been told with years of obsessive something else, for example, years of obsessive martial arts training, or years of obsessive bum-mutilating, or years of obsessive crocheting. Unfortunately, since this story is going to be told in a 2.5-hour movie, we're probably not going to have time for years of anything. So who can blame Raimi for the fact that he's focusing on the other character aspects instead of on how Brock turned into a hulking bodybuilder? It doesn't fit the mechanics.

In the case of Brock's muscularity, numerous flashback scenes and dialogue aren't needed. His physique would tell the back story in a few seconds.
Moreover, my objection to Topher isn't just his size. He looks like a teenagers and his voice doesn't fit Venom. Topher's hair in the movie is far too metrosexual/GQ for Brock. The flared jeans and boots aren't something Brock would wear either. I could get past all those if Topher looked anything like Eddie but he's pretty much the antithesis of the character.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Gee you think?

He's not even cute

He's going to FLUNK.

And Raimi will go out of business

LOL!!! Even Topher's demographic is against him.

 

[dodus]

In the case of Brock's muscularity, numerous flashback scenes and dialogue aren't needed. His physique would tell the back story in a few seconds.
Moreover, my objection to Topher isn't just his size. He looks like a teenagers and his voice doesn't fit Venom. Topher's hair in the movie is far too metrosexual/GQ for Brock. The flared jeans and boots aren't something Brock would wear either. I could get past all those if Topher looked anything like Eddie but he's pretty much the antithesis of the character.

So, years are going to pass in this movie? What are the rest of the characters going to be doing during that time? The plot goes on hold just so that Brock can weight lift obsessively for a few years, and then we can come back and have flashback montages from everybody!

I think you're suffering from a lack of perspective here. Raimi's giving us Venom. This is going to be a highly anticipated summer/superhero-franchise blockbuster. You're just not going to see Sony casting a greasy, bushy-eyebrowed, meaty 35-year old bodybuilder with a 1/2" buzz cut. (Although I will admit, I would have turned a sympathetic ear toward anyone who wanted to argue that Henry Rollins should have been Venom). No, they're going to fill the movie with more popular, attractive, not-untalented young people. And they're probably going to be wearing stylish clothes. What reasonable person would expect otherwise. And aside from that no-brainer discrepancy, what other liberties do we know Raimi to be taking?

 

[Lantern Venom]

So, years are going to pass in this movie? What are the rest of the characters going to be doing during that time? The plot goes on hold just so that Brock can weight lift obsessively for a few years, and then we can come back and have flashback montages from everybody!

It would just be a matter of the key point of contention happening between Brock and Parker at the beginning of the movie in a flashback then the the events of the movie taking place in the present.

I think you're suffering from a lack of perspective here. Raimi's giving us Venom. This is going to be a highly anticipated summer/superhero-franchise blockbuster. You're just not going to see Sony casting a greasy, bushy-eyebrowed, meaty 35-year old bodybuilder with a 1/2" buzz cut. ?

That is the character. If Raimi, Marvel Studios and Sony didn't want to do Eddie/Venom correctly, they shouldn't have done him at all.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Edit: computer freeze, multiple posts.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Edit: multiple posts

 

[dodus]

That is the character. If Raimi, Marvel Studios and Sony didn't want to do Eddie/Venom correctly, they shouldn't have done him at all.

You gotta distinguish between being true to a character for its own sake and telling a compelling story. There's no merit to being true to a character for its own sake if its not also compelling. So, instead of sacrificing the entire movie at the altar of doing Eddie/Venom "correctly", they're tweaking the parts that wouldn't work in a movie in order to maximize the storytelling effectiveness. How exactly do you go about being "true" to a work of fiction anyway? I mean, we can all disagree over which version of Venom is the coolest, which comic issue he kicks Spider-man's ass the hardest, or which artist draws him the best, but as long as whoever's got the character's fortunes in hand at the moment is trying their hardest to make them as cool and entertaining to us as they possibly can, how can you fault them? You can disagree with their perception of what consistutes a compelling character--but that's all you're doing, not upholding some kind of "protector-of-the-legacy" code.

 

[James L Howlett]

I believe this has less to do with what was necessary to make the character work & more to do with making money, appeasing the studios, & fans. The reason I think that is the fans wanted to see Eddie/Venom but Raimi already said he did not like him. Then Sony saw a chance to make Spider-Man 1 numbers off the popularity of Eddie/Venom, so surely they told him to put him in there. Therefore, instead of fleshing out the most popular version (which he does not like) he decided to go with his own interpretation. He took 60% of USM Eddie/Venom using the name of Eddie Jr., looks, & USM Venom’s looks. Then he took 40% from the basic & less convoluted back-story of 616 Eddie/Venom.

Making him work in 2½ hours is more then enough time to tell his story but instead of putting such an important & popular character in a movie with three other characters, he should have given him his own movie. He should have finished the GG saga & maybe thrown in Sandman for good measure, then gone on with the Venom saga. Then maybe do a Sinister Six type story with already established villains if he so desired to do something like that. I have a feeling this third installment is going to feel rushed.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[gvcool2]

I believe this has less to do with what was necessary to make the character work & more to do with making money, appeasing the studios, & fans. The reason I think that is the fans wanted to see Eddie/Venom but Raimi already said he did not like him. Then Sony saw a chance to make Spider-Man 1 numbers off the popularity of Eddie/Venom, so surely they told him to put him in there. Therefore, instead of fleshing out the most popular version (which he does not like) he decided to go with his own interpretation. He took 60% of USM Eddie/Venom using the name of Eddie Jr., looks, & USM Venom’s looks. Then he took 40% from the basic & less convoluted back-story of 616 Eddie/Venom.

Making him work in 2½ hours is more then enough time to tell his story but instead of putting such an important & popular character in a movie with three other characters, he should have given him his own movie. He should have finished the GG saga & maybe thrown in Sandman for good measure, then gone on with the Venom saga. Then maybe do a Sinister Six type story with already established villains if he so desired to do something like that. I have a feeling this third installment is going to feel rushed.

Just my opinion of course.

this statement is so very wrong, raimi has gained the studio's trust by making 2 extremely high grossing movies, if they hadn't of handed him the majority of the creative reigns after the first movie than they certainly did after the sequel, putting venom in the movie, I feel was never about the money, it was about the fans, Arad although a slimy ******* knows what the comic fans want, and he told Raimi this...thus Brock was created.

 

[James L Howlett]

this statement is so very wrong, raimi has gained the studio's trust by making 2 extremely high grossing movies, if they hadn't of handed him the majority of the creative reigns after the first movie than they certainly did after the sequel, putting venom in the movie, I feel was never about the money, it was about the fans, Arad although a slimy ******* knows what the comic fans want, and he told Raimi this...thus Brock was created.

Yeah, because that's how it works.

 

[lizard855]

Its not a bad idea

 

[Lantern Venom]

You gotta distinguish between being true to a character for its own sake and telling a compelling story. There's no merit to being true to a character for its own sake if its not also compelling. So, instead of sacrificing the entire movie at the altar of doing Eddie/Venom "correctly", they're tweaking the parts that wouldn't work in a movie in order to maximize the storytelling effectiveness.

Casting an intimidating actor to play an intimidating villian hardly seems like too much to ask.

How exactly do you go about being "true" to a work of fiction anyway?

Simple. The Spidey movies follow a 616 storyline. Therefore all the actors and storylines should resemble that version of history. Something tells me if Spidey would have shown up in the first movie as a cop with his Iron costume, people would be outraged. That's how Venomites feel right now.

 

[Lantern Venom]

He should have finished the GG saga & maybe thrown in Sandman for good measure, then gone on with the Venom saga.
Just my opinion of course.

I think you are right. The stories of those two villians is more than eough material for a good storyline. It's seems that Venom may end up being an afterthought.

 

[dodus]

Something tells me if Spidey would have shown up in the first movie as a cop with his Iron costume, people would be outraged. That's how Venomites feel right now.

Fitting analogy

We're talking about a casting choice here. I see it as inspired, you see it as misguided. But please, stop inferring that earth-shattering liberties are being taken with the character.

Simple. The Spidey movies follow a 616 storyline. Therefore all the actors and storylines should resemble that version of history.

Again...where is the evidence that Raimi's leaning more USM than 616? Because his name is Jr.? *****, before I looked it up, I was convinced that 616 Eddie was a Jr. as well...seems to fit the character better. Fleshes out the over-achieving tendencies and overbearing father better. Is USM Eddie a newspaper reporter/photographer? Does he have spiky, close-cropped hair? Is he disenfranchised by Parker/Spider-man before he becomes Venom?

James L. Howlett, where the hell are you getting your information? Is that an official Marvel announcement?

Raimi: "Alright guys, I'm going with 60% USM Venom, and 40% 616 Venom. Debate."

From the grainy, blurry, .5-second gif of Venom, you were able to discern that we were looking at a Venom based on the USM universe and not 616? Impressive! It usually takes me a couple minutes of staring at a static picture before I can tell.

And you guys need to quit trying to claim sole ownership of Venom fandom. I love 616 Eddie, I don't like USM Eddie. I was there in the 90's, I've got the comics, cards, and toys to prove it. For a long time Venom was all I drew or thought about. You're not the only true believers, you're just the most rigid.

 

[James L Howlett]

You did not even know his name & you claim to be a “true believer”. He took 60% of USM Eddie/Venom using the name of Eddie Jr., looks (you failed to mention that part), & USM Venom’s looks. Then he took 40% from the basic & less convoluted back-story of 616 Eddie/Venom. Which in my opinion (is that better mommy) is the only way he knew how to shoehorn Eddie/Venom into an already crowded movie.

It’s just a guess on Venoms (Eddie Jr.’s looks are obvious) looks based on the route they are going, don’t get bent out of shape. Not to mention they apparently are using the same type of fabric for Venom as they do for Spidey (see Venom wallpaper).

As for claiming sole ownership of a comic book character, which we did not we’re just advocating the use of the most popular version. Why don’t you quit pretending to be a fan? You know you sound a lot like Iglius, interesting.

If you don’t like it just drop it & leave. As for being a “true believer”, I think you would truly understand their disdain for this depiction of Eddie/Venom. Then you could voice your opinion but follow up with “but I understand why you don’t like it”.

No fuss, no muss, & everyone is happy.

 

[James L Howlett]

Look, no one is going to win here so why don’t you drop it & leave. We can post what we THINK is going on or going to happen the fact is it’s going to come down to personal preference. You say you don’t like USM Eddie/Venom but you do like 616 Eddie/Venom, fine then you should understand their disdain. No one is forcing you to read this thread you chose to come here. That’s why 49er left the Topher thread & came to one that was more to his liking. I think you guy’s just love to argue.

 

[gvcool2]

Yeah, because that's how it works.

purely out of curiosity, what did your last movie grosse James? did it break even?

 

[dodus]

Look, no one is going to win here so why don’t you drop it & leave. We can post what we THINK is going on or going to happen the fact is it’s going to come down to personal preference. You say you don’t like USM Eddie/Venom but you do like 616 Eddie/Venom, fine then you should understand their disdain. No one is forcing you to read this thread you chose to come here. That’s why 49er left the Topher thread & came to one that was more to his liking. I think you guy’s just love to argue.

You're exactly right, I like to argue. And to express my opinion, which I believe is well within my rights, as well as it is to point at holes in your flawed logic, and to be a 616-lover/USM-disliker who doesn't have a problem with Topher Grace. And to try to convince you guys to be happy about this movie that's going to have our favorite character in it.

No one said you couldn't make a Topher-hating thread and post in it. But you can't shut out people who disagree with you. There are no thread police that are going to come save you.

 

[dodus]

He took 60% of USM Eddie/Venom using the name of Eddie Jr., looks (you failed to mention that part)

I still don't buy this. USM Eddie Brock has a balding, wispy coffee-shop cut and a goatee. 616 Eddie Brock has a crew cut and no facial hair. If they were going for USM Eddie, they did a pretty bad job.

I still think you guys are overestimating the amount of the USM universe that's going to appear in this movie, big time.

“but I understand why you don’t like it”.

I do understand why you don't like it. Because we're getting Venom on the big screen, but he doesn't exactly fit the vision of him in a movie that you had pictured, and you can't handle it. Which is fine--go out and become a good film director, get your hands on some capital, and make your own Venom movie--with Venom exactly the way you want him. Otherwise you're going to have to deal with somebody else's idea of what is cool about Venom.