Worst Moments in Comic Books

[Zev]

Streets of Laredo, The Punisher

In the "Things That Make You Go Huh?" category: In a story all about how homophobia is wrong and it's Okay to be Gay and whatnot, how come the two gay characters aren't shown having any physical intimacy? Not a kiss, not a hug, not a swat on the behind... nothing. Yet Garth Ennis devotes four pages (!) to one of those characters' graphic murders.

Marvel Comics: Decapitations, disemboweling, and general mauling? Fine. Boys kissing? Ewwwwww!

 

[BrianWilly]

That's unfortunately the way the cookie crumbles here in the Us of A. Cartoon Network wants to show laser energy beams shooting through hearts and bodies chopped in half on Dragonball Z? Go for it! Cartoon Network wants to show a lesbian couple who -- never actually kiss onscreen -- on Sailor Moon? Nah, change 'em into sisters; implied incest is much better for the youngin's to see than girl-on-girl.

 

[rigel7soldiers]

That's unfortunately the way the cookie crumbles here in the Us of A. Cartoon Network wants to show laser energy beams shooting through hearts and bodies chopped in half on Dragonball Z? Go for it! Cartoon Network wants to show a lesbian couple who -- never actually kiss onscreen -- on Sailor Moon? Nah, change 'em into sisters; implied incest is much better for the youngin's to see than girl-on-girl.

Gah! Just when I thought it was over... that (the lesbian thing) upset me when I was a kid, I had a crush on Michiru...

 

[Varient]

New Avengers and Bendis in general rock biblically.

whoa.

 

[Zev]

I think saying that Bendis rocks biblically amounts to blasphemy.

 

[Zev]

Just to get one last word on Streets of Laredo before moving on to better targets... the reason it doesn't work is precisely why it was written in the first place. In its zeal to show it's okay to be gay, it falls into the classic traps of hagiological glorification and demonizing ad hominem attacks. Basically, Ennis is saying "Everyone who agrees with me is nice and pretty and brave, while everyone who disagrees with me is ugly and stupid and murderous."

Anyone can do this. The Nazi Party did it to Jews, D.W. Griffin did it to blacks in Birth of a Nation. In fact, you can do it today. Make a movie showing pedophiles as heroes, quiet, graceful in the face of bigots decrying them as "monsters," with consenting children who just want to learn about love... market it as Lolita meets The Woodsman, I bet it'd win an Oscar.

The problems with this are manifest. First, this kind of "argument" is easy to dismiss. Bring a homophobe who isn't ugly or stupid or murderous and Ennis' logic collapses. Likewise, bring a homosexual who isn't nice or pretty or brave and it collapses again.

It's the difference between showing that an IDEA is wrong and that a PEOPLE are wrong. Take In The Heat Of The Night, for instance. The lead, Rod Steiger, is an unabashed racist. But, as the movie progresses, he learns that racism is wrong by the simple fact that Sidney Poiter's character isn't any of the stereotypes he believed. The concept of racism, that blacks are inferior, doesn't jibe with the facts he's receiving firsthand. So which works better at attacking racism: In The Heat Of The Night or the Klansmen in the opening scene of Bad Boys 2 (although in defense of Michael Bay and co, that's a summer blockbuster. It's SUPPOSED to have boo-hiss cookie cutter villains)?

The Germans under Hitler weren't any stupider than me or you. Yet they were swayed into committing and sanctioning horrible atrocities through simple demagoguery. The key is logic. Calm, rational appeal to the mind, not the heart. If you want to stop that homophobia is wrong, don't take the easy way out. If you do, your argument collapses as soon as you run into a charismatic, well-read homophobe. And that doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[Da Docta]

i feel sorry for this thread so: bump

 

[rigel7soldiers]

People seem to hava a problem with Zev. That's weird. I'm a liberal, but I find myself agreeing with Zev. A lot.

 

[Zev]

Well, I used to occasionally be pretty obnoxious about airing my political beliefs. Then I realized how irritating that can be for someone on the opposite of the political spectrum (thanks, CHUD.com!) and now try to keep everything as apolitical as possible so that everyone can enjoy it.

 

[Pksoze]

Its so wrong.

 

[Muze]

i can almost hear Thanos begging, "Please...let me get my shoes..my shoes" like they do on COPS.

 

[Zev]

Thor: Gods on Earth, Dan Jurgens

I'll say one thing for this storyline. It was long. Really long. So long that I'll bet Marvel was worried the war would be over before it ended. Dan Jurgens was one of the many writers who confused epic with "really, really long."

Not helping matters was that the whole thing turned out to be just a dream in the end. Well, not really, but everything went back to normal and only Thor could remember it, so the effect was the same.

Apparently, the storyline was an attack on (three guesses) the War in Iraq, showing Thor deciding to basically take over the world for it's own good. Now a full-fledged member of the Justice Lords, he kills all the other superheroes, has a huge supporting cast including his own son by Amora (this proves he's gone over to the Dark Side. He's having sex with a woman isn't his One True Wuv), and is unworthy of Mjolnir. Earth has grown lethageric under management, with all the humans agreeing that utopia pretty much sucks and staging rebellions against the Asgardians (get it? GET IT?). Finally, a bunch of **** happens and Thor sees the light and presses The Big Reset Button In The Sky.

I say apparently because, well, it's a straw man argument. Is anyone really arguing we should set up permanent shop in Iraq and run a police state?

In the end, the story's message is that the Asgardans (read: America) should let Earth (read: the rest of the world) find it's own way. Basically, if they want utopia (read: freedom), they've got to earn it for themselves. I whole-heartedly agree. In fact, why not take it to the next step? Get rid of all the missionaries and medicine and food shipments. Throw out those AIDS lessons. If those dirty Africans want to know how to stop spreading STDs, let them figure it out for themselves. After all, self-determination is more important than a few measly lives, right? Who are we to impose clean drinking water on them? After all, it's not like WE had any help when we were fighting for our freedom.

Except for, ya know, the French and the Netherlands and Spain. And they were doing it for a much less noble reason, namely screwing over the British (although from what I've seen of Mel Gibson movies, this is an entirely worthwhile goal. In your face, Doctor Who!). And for anyone who says that ours reasons were ignoble, that we were just doing it to get oil, might I suggest that attacking a man who has a known history of burning his own oil wells under a "If I can't have it, no one will!" policy isn't the best way to get to that yummy oil? If we REALLY wanted oil, we'd just cut a deal and divert some of our money from the oil for food program to Saddam's palaces, just like our friends in France and Germany.

But hey, I'm not an evil mastermind like Karl Rove or Dick Cheney, so what do I know, right?

 

[roach]

And for anyone who says that ours reasons were ignoble, that we were just doing it to get oil, might I suggest that attacking a man who has a known history of burning his own oil wells under a "If I can't have it, no one will!" policy isn't the best way to get to that yummy oil? If we REALLY wanted oil, we'd just cut a deal and divert some of our money from the oil for food program to Saddam's palaces, just like our friends in France and Germany.

But hey, I'm not an evil mastermind like Karl Rove or Dick Cheney, so what do I know, right?

I find myself agreeing with you Zev...and it scares me.....

 

[newnoiseimage]

if we did it for oil why are oil prices through the roof?

on a side note, WHY ARE OIL PRICES THROUGH THE ROOF?

we have an internal surplus a little over a week ago, and all energy companies are enjoying record profits. its total b.s. the entire operation 1) makes no sense to those outside of the cabinet and 2) will never yield the results that we are looking for.

 

[Mara Jane]

Because of China entering the industrial age! THAT'S why the cost is up. A country of over a billion people now has ordinary folks (not just government people) owning cars, when they used to ride bicycles. When demand goes up, so does the price. Which also means that prices will not be coming down any time soon, sadly.

Interstingly, did you know that the most popular selling car in China is the Buick? Odd... but I guess they'd rather buy American than Japanese.

 

[UK_Stu]

if we did it for oil why are oil prices through the roof?

on a side note, WHY ARE OIL PRICES THROUGH THE ROOF?

we have an internal surplus a little over a week ago, and all energy companies are enjoying record profits. its total b.s. the entire operation 1) makes no sense to those outside of the cabinet and 2) will never yield the results that we are looking for.

Hey, you think your oil prices are high, you should check them out here in the UK. Petrol is at an all time high - approx 1.66USD per litre!!!

 

[UK_Stu]

, namely screwing over the British (although from what I've seen of Mel Gibson movies, this is an entirely worthwhile goal. In your face, Doctor Who!).

Bloody Gibson hates us

 

[Shadowknight]

Worst moment in comic books: Turning this thread into an obsession over politics instead of really badly written comics or particuarly stupid moments.

I didn't read the Thor run in question, but MANY writers have done the "super-heroes should/do take over the world" thing. Doesn't mean anything politically. Really.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Lets say it all together now: When they made Punisher Black

 

[Zeu]

worst moment in comics....thor being beaten by superman.

I actually thought that was one of the most vividly sweet and succulent moments of recent comicbook history.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Its so wrong.

the worst part is the LAPD beat him up for being a different alien race before they cuffed him

 

[Zev]

All-Star Batman & Robin The Boy Wonder 1, Frank Miller.

Ah, Frank Miller. In times of trouble, it's good to have such an all purpose target. His hatred for organized religion is more than matched on the other side of the political spectrum by his rampant homophobia. How else could you describe killing off/Anakinizing the past Robins in Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again, while at the same time saying that the same relationship with an adolescent GIRL is healthy (even when it turns sexy). And turning Dick Grayson into a psychosexual (I don't know what that word means, but I love it) who raves about how Batman should love him while Bats tells him he isn't good enough.

By the way, Frank, nice artwork...

Look, I know slash certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea (not mine, for sure), but ISN'T THIS A BIT MUCH? Can Batman feel no emotion other than violent rage? Because that doesn't seem like a very interesting character. In fact, it sounds... one-dimensional.

Moving right along...

First of all, the writing is confusing. It switches (sometimes within the same page) from Dick's first-person narration discussing his acrobatics, to a third-person omniscient to introduce Vicki Vale (who spends most of the issue standing around in her underwear. More on that later), back to first-person for Vicki Vale's perspective, then again to Dick, then to BRUCE (for his creepy fetishization of Dick... damnit, why couldn't they have named him Rich or something? Do you know how hard it is to write serious when someone's named Dick?) and ping-pongs back and forth for the rest of the issue. It's almost like a parody. I kept waiting for all the internal narrations to start arguing among themselves. "It was a dark and stormy night..." "No, it wasn't!"

Second, the whole gratuitous lingerie scene. Look, I'm all for some T&A once in a while, but when the blurb on the editorial page says "This has a lot of beautiful women in it"... well, heck, am I reading Batman or Danger Girl?

Third, in Year One the police were corrupt and the city was cowed with fear. In All-Star, cops can kidnap young boys and KNOCK AROUND WOMEN WITH NIGHTSTICKS IN PUBLIC without fear of reprisal. Now that's just ridiculous.

Oh, and Bruce is REALLY pedo for some reason. "I've had my eye on [Dick] (see what I mean about writing serious?) for a while. He's something, all right." So Bruce Wayne keeps an eye on young boys with potential, just in case they're orphaned?

"So why've you had your eye on him?" Vicki asks.

"I've got an eye for talent," is the disturbing reply.

"The boy has entered my world," Bruce's internal monologue annouces when Dick's parents are killed (finally, something involving the name Dick that doesn't sound dirty). "And he'll never leave it. There's no way out of it."

Is Bruce supposed to be pleased about this? Pleased that Dick's entering his... world?

 

[oregondude]

All-Star Batman & Robin The Boy Wonder 1, Frank Miller.

Ah, Frank Miller. In times of trouble, it's good to have such an all purpose target. His hatred for organized religion is more than matched on the other side of the political spectrum by his rampant homophobia. How else could you describe killing off/Anakinizing the past Robins in Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again, while at the same time saying that the same relationship with an adolescent GIRL is healthy (even when it turns sexy). And turning Dick Grayson into a psychosexual (I don't know what that word means, but I love it) who raves about how Batman should love him while Bats tells him he isn't good enough.

By the way, Frank, nice artwork...

Look, I know slash certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea (not mine, for sure), but ISN'T THIS A BIT MUCH? Can Batman feel no emotion other than violent rage? Because that doesn't seem like a very interesting character. In fact, it sounds... one-dimensional.

Moving right along...

First of all, the writing is confusing. It switches (sometimes within the same page) from Dick's first-person narration discussing his acrobatics, to a third-person omniscient to introduce Vicki Vale (who spends most of the issue standing around in her underwear. More on that later), back to first-person for Vicki Vale's perspective, then again to Dick, then to BRUCE (for his creepy fetishization of Dick... damnit, why couldn't they have named him Rich or something? Do you know how hard it is to write serious when someone's named Dick?) and ping-pongs back and forth for the rest of the issue. It's almost like a parody. I kept waiting for all the internal narrations to start arguing among themselves. "It was a dark and stormy night..." "No, it wasn't!"

Second, the whole gratuitous lingerie scene. Look, I'm all for some T&A once in a while, but when the blurb on the editorial page says "This has a lot of beautiful women in it"... well, heck, am I reading Batman or Danger Girl?

Third, in Year One the police were corrupt and the city was cowed with fear. In All-Star, cops can kidnap young boys and KNOCK AROUND WOMEN WITH NIGHTSTICKS IN PUBLIC without fear of reprisal. Now that's just ridiculous.

Oh, and Bruce is REALLY pedo for some reason. "I've had my eye on [Dick] (see what I mean about writing serious?) for a while. He's something, all right." So Bruce Wayne keeps an eye on young boys with potential, just in case they're orphaned?

"So why've you had your eye on him?" Vicki asks.

"I've got an eye for talent," is the disturbing reply.

"The boy has entered my world," Bruce's internal monologue annouces when Dick's parents are killed (finally, something involving the name Dick that doesn't sound dirty). "And he'll never leave it. There's no way out of it."

Is Bruce supposed to be pleased about this? Pleased that Dick's entering his... world?

Frank Miller has SUCKED since the late 80's, nothing new here my friend. I cannot fathom why anyone would buy the crap he puts out. Sin City SUCKS just as bad as what you described.

 

[Zev]

That whole argument about how hatred is good, because it means people are at least talking about your comics and hence buying them to see what all the fuss is about. I mean, it's not like we live in the Information Age and someone could just post the offending pages so that the people could make up their own minds without plucking down their hard-earned money? Because, ya know, that would be wrong...

Backstory: After Bruce Wayne's parents were killed, a kindly social worker named Leslie Thompkins took care of him, becoming a sort of mother figure. She was kind of Alfred's counterpart, running a free clinic near Crime Alley. She eventually found out about Bruce being Batman, which she argued against. An avowed pacifist and dedicated doctor, she once refused to let a patient die even though he was threatening her life. In short, she's a highly moral and honorable person and a valued member of the Batman supporting cast.

More Backstory: Spoiler was... well, basically the Black Cat to Robin's Spider-Man. In one of those scenes that make you wonder if all comic book writers hate women, she was tortured with a power drill, fought back, lost, then died... as it turned out, from someone withholding treatment from her.

So, what do these two backstories have in common?

Alright, that's pretty bad in terms of being wildly out-of-character (the nearest equivalent I can think of is Gwen having Norman's babies), but at least the writer showed respect and courtesy to those who didn't like the story. Right? Right?

There's the evidence. Make up your own minds.

 

[The Question]

Wow. That is so out of character. I mean.....wow. Soooooooooooooooooooo out of character.