X-Men - Part 1

[Havok83]

True but let's be realistic here, if they resurrect Jean and attempt to have her move on...there will always be that elephant in the room with her and Scott..and wolverine to an extent. Not to mention you just KNOW the fanboys are going to be constantly complaining about Jean and Scott not being together.

So what? I dont really think they care what the fans want. They will write what they want regardless. If they cared about the fanboys, Jean would have been brought back years ago. I dont think she needs Scott to have viability. She can be alone, not pining away for him and the two can work together when their teams cross paths without past drama automatically hindering their ability on the field

 

[kguillou]

I agree but...I dont think the writers will be able to resist the temptation of putting that tension between her and scott and wolverine in our faces all over again. I would love it if they just had her move on and do her own thing but again, it would have to be an editorial mandate that "SCOTT AND JEAN ARE DONE!" otherwise i feel like the writers will want to mine that well. I dunno, in this day and age where everything is being retconned and relaunched and rebooted, it's nice to see some actual progression. Peter Parker is now exactly the same as he was 30 years ago whereas Scott Summers is a drastically different person, i would hate for Jean to ruin that.

 

[Panthro]

A lot of people seem to have a negative view of Jean and her relationship with Scott. It's kind of sad.

 

[Havok83]

A lot of people seem to have a negative view of Jean and her relationship with Scott. It's kind of sad.

Its unfortunate and I blame Morrison and the current stance at Marvel. They were truly one of the most iconic couples in all of comic history and definetly the most iconic for the Xmen

 

[JewishHobbit]

Its unfortunate and I blame Morrison and the current stance at Marvel. They were truly one of the most iconic couples in all of comic history and definetly the most iconic for the Xmen

I've said it for years... Morrison wrote a great run of comics but he also killed the franchise. He didn't put the nail in the coffin but he began the downward spiral by having Scott and Jean cheat on each other and that destroyed the family dynamic of the X-Men. It's been falling apart ever since.

The lack of family dynamic has done far more damage to the X-Men than M-Day ever could.

 

[kguillou]

It's not so much that people didnt like Scott and Jean, its just that Scott and Emma are being written SO damn well together that people dont want Scott to go back to the way he was with Jean.

 

[Havok83]

It's not so much that people didnt like Scott and Jean, its just that Scott and Emma are being written SO damn well together that people dont want Scott to go back to the way he was with Jean.

I dont see this great writing for Scott and Emma. His character took a nosedive since he got with her. His dark attitude has been awful and she supports and encourages that mess. She really doesnt challenge him and Jean would have called him out on this BS and help him to want to uphold his integrity. The writing for Emma has been all over the place with Whedon being the only one that truly got her. For the most part, she's been very submissive to Scott, losing much of the fire and passion she was well known for. She's pretty much his arm candy. The crying, getting all emotional, and lovey dovery has been cringeworthy at times for her. It's time for their relationship to end bc it really does no favors to either character. They drag each other down.

 

[roach]

I've said it for years... Morrison wrote a great run of comics but he also killed the franchise. He didn't put the nail in the coffin but he began the downward spiral by having Scott and Jean cheat on each other and that destroyed the family dynamic of the X-Men. It's been falling apart ever since.

The lack of family dynamic has done far more damage to the X-Men than M-Day ever could.

exactly...I'd like to see a new Giant Sized X-men that introduces the next class of X-men led by Storm or Scott...as much as I love the X-men its time for some new blood. As long as the X-Office believes characterization = lets kill someone off the X-men will continue to grow stagnant

 

[Anubis]

That's Superhero comics in general.

 

[roach]

That's Superhero comics in general.

unfortunately this is true

 

[kguillou]

exactly...I'd like to see a new Giant Sized X-men that introduces the next class of X-men led by Storm or Scott...as much as I love the X-men its time for some new blood. As long as the X-Office believes characterization = lets kill someone off the X-men will continue to grow stagnant

Unfortunately they've already tried that several times with Young X-men and stuff havent they? I think the market these days isn't kind to new characters.

 

[roach]

Unfortunately they've already tried that several times with Young X-men and stuff havent they? I think the market these days isn't kind to new characters.

no im talking about what they did with Giant sized X-men #1..replace the X-men with a new team. Replacing Beast, Angel, Iceman, Cyclops and Marvel Girl with Banshee, Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/14/what-if-the-bleeding-cool-forums-had-been-around-in-1975/

 

[Havok83]

no im talking about what they did with Giant sized X-men #1..replace the X-men with a new team. Replacing Beast, Angel, Iceman, Cyclops and Marvel Girl with Banshee, Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/14/what-if-the-bleeding-cool-forums-had-been-around-in-1975/

That could never work in today's market. It only worked back then bc there were only 6 X-men at the time and only one book. They only got rid of 4 and kept 2 around. Scott remained as leader and Jean remained in the book in a limited capacity till she became Phoenix and was back on the team a few issues later. With literally dozens of X-men now, theres no way they can get rid of all of them and have a new cast come in. Even if they did that for a book, there's still plenty of other X-men titles, that that change wouldnt be felt. Remember, Uncanny was the only X-book back then. Besides people arent as receptive to new characters (ex. look at Generation Hope). There are too many X-men tossed to the side now that people would just be pissed off if they went and introduced a brand new roster, which theoretically they feel should have went towards the already ignored X-men.

 

[kguillou]

Hahaha first of all, that was an awesome link. That is EXACTLY how the fans would've responded to Giant Size X-men #1 in 1975.

Second of all, while i think its a good idea to start with a "all new all different team", marvel will never ever give up their established characters like wolverine and cyclops and storm. Even if Cyclops or wolverine is leading the team, unfortunately people don't want to read about "new" x-men. The book would be canceled after 12 issues.

Heck the only reason it worked back then was because Uncanny had already been canceled and they had nothing to lose trying out a new team.

 

[roach]

That could never work in today's market. It only worked back then bc there were only 6 X-men at the time and only one book. They only got rid of 4 and kept 2 around. Scott remained as leader and Jean remained in the book in a limited capacity till she became Phoenix and was back on the team a few issues later. With literally dozens of X-men now, theres no way they can get rid of all of them and have a new cast come in. Even if they did that for a book, there's still plenty of other X-men titles, that that change wouldnt be felt. Remember, Uncanny was the only X-book back then. Besides people arent as receptive to new characters (ex. look at Generation Hope). There are too many X-men tossed to the side now that people would just be pissed off if they went and introduced a brand new roster, which theoretically they feel should have went towards the already ignored X-men.

People hate Hope because she's looked upon as Jean-lite

and yet we are still getting ignored X-men..even with three books
I think the X-men need a shake up to get it back to greatness...i dont believe Schism is it

 

[El Bastardo]

The X-Men don't need any shake-up. I'll read Schism, and it'll likely be well-written because it's Jason Aaron. But it's not essential for the franchise. This is, however, still the era of event comics, and so here we are.

All the X-Men need - all any franchise or single comic needs - is competent writing. The X-Men franchise has had competent writing in a piecemeal sense for more than half a decade, though only in the last year or two has the piecemeal started to become more cohesive to a franchise-whole.

 

[Anubis]

Nah I say kill em all off and start up a new team lead by......I don't know....f**king Gambit. Yeah, that works.

 

[El Bastardo]

I could get behind that, as long as Gillen ain't writing it.

 

[runawayboulder]

Scott's decent into darkness had started before Morrison came aboard, Morrison just ran with it. Scott Lobdell planted the seeds during Eve of Destruction when Wolverine questioned Cyclops about his changed behavior as they were busting into Genosha. Lobdell had plans for the X-Men line past EoD (including the Mojo/Death of Longshot plot) but was removed in favor of Morrison. So somebody was going to run with the plot anyway and screw with the family dynamic Jewish Hobbit mentioned earlier.

Personally, I think Morrison's run gets a bad rap. During the run, everyone was doing backflips......10 years later, it's a different story. I think he reinvigorated what was a fading franchise at the time. Hell, even Claremont couldn't pull it out of a rut. And there were a lot of worse writers since....anybody remember Chuck Austen? That dude's not even in the biz anymore and I swear to god, Marvel treated that no-talent ass clown then like they treat Bendis today.

Peter Milligan was bad too. Brubaker wasn't as bad, he did some stuff I liked....The Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire and Messiah Complex were very good IMO. Deadly Genesis was kinda crappy, yeah, but Bru did prove he can do a big event. Hopefully he gets the Marvel event of summer 2012.

Marvel screwed the X-Line in 2 ways:

1. House of M
2. The unsatisfying conclusion to Second Coming.

Now we all have heard 5000000 views of why HoM was bad but I don't think the mistakes made in Second Coming have been fully realized yet. Marvel screwed up by not resolving the Hope plot after 3 yrs. Since Hope has come back in time to the X-Men all we've got so far is the 5 lights. Whoop-de-doo. How about the 5 million lights and make mutants relevant again? Now we're going into Schism where Hope will be undoubtedly a secondary character (if she's lucky) while Cyclops and Wolverine take center stage. By the time the dust settles and the relaunched books are 1 year in the Hope saga will be 5 years old and no resolve.

And by the time Marvel decides to reveal that Hope is Jean (which we all know she is in some way, shape or form) no one will care and be pissed off and take it out on Jean. I think all the hate for Jean and negative talk how she is only around to die is preemptive hate because we all know what's coming. The X-Men line's death knell has and always will be the long running plot lines and mysteries.

By 1996, fans were so sick of that type off storytelling that almost 15yrs of mysteries were crammed into 4 years of comics. If it wasn't how Gambit was a traitor it was "Who are the Twelve?". The end result was always crap because conclusions were rushed out to stop free-falling sales. I remember when Claremont made his "big" return to the franchise and just started kicking up the mystery machine again. Remember The Neo? Probably not because if you were like me, you didn't care at that point. The Destiny Diaries that spawned Xtreme X-Men was another "who cares?" plot. Like I said, long running plots KILLS the X-Men.

 

[roach]

IMO the long running plots were what I loved about the X-men and what I hate about writing for trade. People love mysteries. Its why we watched Lost or went to see Super 8. I loved the fact that a plot line from issue 200 would be brought up and used in issue 300.
I think the problem was less than capable writers tried to solve all the mysteries when Claremont left.

 

[Anubis]

I could get behind that, as long as Gillen ain't writing it.

You know, Gillen's a pretty good writer. In fact, a lot of the last few writers that the X-Men have had have been pretty good writers....maybe it ain't the writers.....maybe.....It's the X-Men.

 

[roach]

You know, Gillen's a pretty good writer. In fact, a lot of the last few writers that the X-Men have had have been pretty good writers....maybe it ain't the writers.....maybe.....It's the X-Men.

its why I believe X-men need a shake up

 

[Anubis]

That and fire everybody in the X-Office. Editors on down.

 

[runawayboulder]

I wouldn't call Scott Lobdell or Fabian Nicenza less that capable. In fact, they were more than capable. The problem was while we when clamoring for the answer to....I'll use the Cable/Stryfe saga here, we got 20 different issues about Rogue and Gambit. When they presented the X-Cutioners Song as the possible resolve to a 2 year old plot thread, it ended up being a swerve and nothing happened. Scott and Jean realized that Cable or Stryfe maybe Scott's son. A few years later in a random issue of Cable we got the answer we already knew (thanks to pre-internet material like Wizard). Swerve it the key word I'm using because that's exactly what we got with Second Coming, a promise of answers to the Hope plot but coming up empty instead.

 

[roach]

last wed I picked up X-men Masterworks that reprinted Uncanny 111-121 it started with the X-men fighting Mysterio which led into a confrontation with Magneto which led to a two part Savage Land story...this led into the X-men in Japan and then a two part fight with Alpha Flight....every issue led into the next with no need to stretch or pad a story to make it fit for trade paperback