X-Men: The Last Stand - Scene By Scene

[gambitfire]

Showing him tagging along, or going there, period, defeats the entire purpose of having him SHOW UP OUT OF NOWHERE.

I never said showing him tag along.

I said imply he might do something without being to blunt.

 

[The Guard]

They did. There's a shot on him...you know, watching the X-Men leave after having overheard the situation.

 

[X-Maniac]

it wouldn't hurt if we had a scene of Angel saying he would go to Alcatraz with the X-men. He could appear during the x-jet entering sequence and enter the jet with them. Come on, the "suspense" of Angel's father falling off is 0. It's just bad storytelling.

Not at all. I've just been rewatching the brilliant Millennium series and last night saw some episodes featuring the character Lara Means, who has angelic visions, and an old wiseman type character, who also had a vision. Lara saw an angel in a moment of crisis, it appeared suddenly; and the old wiseman saw an angel in glowing light behind him just as he was butchered by a Nazi assassin. The suddenness and symbolism was part of it all, something metaphysical, wondrous, divine. There was a story in my local newspaper some time ago about a woman whose daughter's life may have been saved by a mystery benefactor's massive anonymous donation that enabled them to fly to a specialist treatment centre, and among the mother's quotations in the story were lines praising the benefactor for being 'like an angel' for his unexpected gift. 'Thanks to mystery angel for offering us new hope' or something like that was the headline.

While it might have been nice to see Angel in uniform fighting alongside the X-Men, that wasn't something for this movie. His training and progression to a team member is something for a future movie, if the character stays around at the mansion. He might well be simply caught up in events, like Nightcrawler.

 

[The Guard]

Traumatic experiences like that can totally twist a person's mind.

Yes, if you spend the time exploring it, and it's connection to OTHER incidents. By itself, it doesn't neccessarily make them become EVIL. Why does not being able to prevent her friend from dying or "feeling" it make Jean evil? In STAR WARS, Anakin becomes evil because he desires POWER, and he lets that desire for power make him seek out the dark side, which promises him more power...which he wants to use to save Padme from her "fate" (In fact, most of Anakin's story in REVENGE OF THE SITH is about these intersections of plot and thematics).

But... it's just an obviously "we're writing out Cyclops and giving you his role" moment. It's not handled well at all. Even the writers admitted as much. So much more could have been done to actually make it a worthwhile arc. But the whole thing just wreaked of "we're writing out Cyclops, here you go Halle, here's his role"

What would be "handling" something like that "well" for you? I'll admit that it feels like they're writing out Cyclops (politically speaking) but that's not ALL there is to that scene. There are a number of good moments to it. And moments that do build on Storm from previous movies.

The scene itself does indicate that though. Cyclops was supposed to get the school. That much was implied in X-Men.

Maybe if you read an awful lot into it. There's nothing definitively shown. All that was implied in X-MEN was that if anything happened to Xavier, Cyclops would take care of "them". I always took that to mean the X-Men. "taking care of" doesn't mean "I'll take over your school". It means "I'll take care of our family". Since we never once saw him teach a class, I'm not sure he COULD have taken over the school. The X-Men, sure. The school, not so much. And besides...how can Cyclops "take care of them" when he's dead? It's not like the writers contradicted anything written in the story? I'm sure, had he been alive, that Cyclops would have loved to have taken care of them.

The scene just wreaks of "Oh yea, I'm gonna get killed off later in the film, and we're killing off Cyclops so he can't take over the school. So that character arc that was supposed to be his, yea, it's going to you now."

That's called foreshadowing. It's a tool good writers use. There is ONE moment where writers/director indicate that Cyclops will carry on Xavier's vision in X-MEN. None in X2. Granted, it's a great moment, but it's a single moment, and there's nothing to it about "Cyclops must take over the school". It's mostly a scene to show that Cyclops believes in Xavier's dream and will carry on if at all possible. Whereas there are multiple scenes of Storm teaching students, caring for them, etc. It's a logical progression to her arc, whether you like the politics behind it or not. It's entirely possible that even if Cyclops had survived in the movie, Storm would still be taking over the school, and Cyclops would be handling the X-Men. And besides, Cyclops is dead. I'm sure if he survived, he'd be happy to take care of them.

He broke them out because he was building an army.

I know why he broke them out. I was asking the question to make a point. A point which you missed. He broke them out of prison. They clearly seem to feel that they owe him (as he freed them). And by the way, actually showing a reason they might want to join Magneto (some sense of loyalty) is more motivation for joining Magneto than even Mystique has gotten in three films. Sabertooth and Toad were given none at all. And I don't care whether him recruiting for his army is a plot point or not.

Callisto and the Morlocks hated the humans just as much as Magneto did. And even KNEW what his purpose was. And even they were a bit skeptical. But we actually see him convince them to join his cause.

And they seemingly joined him for the same damn reason Multiple Man did. They have talents he can use (Magneto makes it clear he's only interested in Calliso until after he realizes she has powers). Didn't you just whine about that being the only reason Multiple Man joined him?

Multiple Man and Juggernaut had no idea who this guy was. They blindly followed him. I don't care how much you do stuff for kicks, you don't just blindly follow along with somebody.

How the heck do you know what they would and wouldn't do? Multiple Man is CLEARLY played as happy-go-lucky. In TWO scenes. I can absolutely believe he'd go along with Magneto for kicks. Hell, the actor even plays it that way.

And the fact that Callisto, Quill, and Arclight DIDN'T know who he was indicates that he's not known. Of course Pyro would come off that Magneto is some important figure. Pyro believes in his cause, and would follow him to the end.

Magneto's actions have to be known in some fashion. Whether Callisto, Quill and Arclight know who Magneto is is pretty relevant. They know what he stands for, and they know he's powerful.

The difference between Sabretooth, Toad, and Mystique in X-Men is that part of the arc of that film did NOT include Magneto recruiting them for his cause. Part of the arc of X-Men: The Last Stand WAS Magneto recruiting for his army. And for the most part, we got a good indication of that. NOT with Multiple Man and Juggernaut, however, whom just blindly joined him and became his blind followers, willing to sacrifice themselves for his cause that they don't know what it is.

Magneto gives all the mutants the same pitch. It's entirely possible he gave Multiple Man and Juggernaut and all the other mutants he recruits the same pitch. We just don't see it. I mean, you can ***** till the cows come home that we don't see exactly why Multiple Man and Juggernaut join Magneto, but odds are, they hate humans, they want to fight against the cure (which will eventually be meant for them), and so forth.

Yea, I was obviously exaggerating. The point is, Multiple Man had not the slightest clue as to who Magneto was, or what he was aspiring to accomplish. You can assume all you want that Mystique may have told him (when, exactly, when both Multiple Man and Juggernaut are essentially in solitary confinement chambers...), but the movie does not establish that. Therefore, in the terms of the movie, it never happened. You can't assume what wasn't established or implied.

I've never said Mystique had any contact with Multiple Man. I've clearly stated that Multiple Man went along just for kicks. And since the movie plays him as pretty happy-go-lucky, I think that's highly likely.

Multiple Man comes off as a blind follower, with no free will of his own, just doing the bidding of anyone who comes around asking him for help. It's no wonder he's in prison.

Uh...ALL the Brotherhood come across as blind followers, except for Callisto, Arclight, and Quills, who were there to hear his original pitch. Obviously at some point Magneto said more than "I could use a man of your talents" to convince them to help. Or maybe Multiple Man only goes along because he thinks Mystique is hot.

No he hasn't. X2 showed pretty well that he does things on his own. Remember that part where he snuck away from the rest of the team, without telling them, to go pursue his own personal vendetta, instead of being a team player? Doesn't seem like development into a leader to me.

He didn't become a full fledged team-playing leader in X-MEN or X2. As I said, that's his ARC in the filmverse. An arc that was completed in X3. Yes, he left to pursue his own personal vendetta...but you're forgetting something. Remember when he realized everyone was in danger...and he LEFT Stryker, RETURNED to the X-Men, saved their asses, and LED them out to what he thought was safety? That's called leadership.

Remember his careless and wreckless attitude in the Danger Room, ruining Storm's entire purpose of the session? Doesn't seem like leadership material to me. The point is, Cyclops was needed to tell this story. They killed him off. So they put Cyclops into Wolverine.

If he's not leading, why is he in the Danger Room leading? Just because he's not being the kind of leader Storm is, or the kind that Cyclops is, does not mean he's not being a leader in that scenario. Which Danger Room scene did you watch? Because the one I saw had the X-Men essentially getting their asses handed to them...and Logan stepping up, displaying leadership skills (including teamwork) to get the job done. Again...this is a leadership characteristic. He knew offense was needed, and he went for it (Storm realizes this at the end of the movie). He may not be taking leadership seriously...but he's still doing it.

Wolverine never had that character arc until the creative team behind X-Men: The Last Stand remembered that Cyclops was vital to the story being told, and fused him with Wolverine's character because they didn't have him anymore.

Clearly Cyclops ISN'T all that vital to the story being told (as we see). What is vital is someone inspiring the X-Men into battle. It could have been Storm, but why not complete Wolverine's arc and have this man who once didn't believe in Xavier's dream inspire the younger X-Men? He's come full circle.

And it was very predictable that, in a movie where the cure was the ultimate weapon against mutants, that the cure would be used to take out the main villian.

A lot of things are predictable. It works well. What's your point?

It didn't have to be demolecularization. Quite frankly, the demolecularization was a pretty lame addition to make Jean uber evil. I didn't like that effect.

Well what would it have been? Jean ripping off Scott's clothes? Oh, hell of a threat.

Cyclops could have marched up against waves of telekinetic blasts, that threw him to the ground. But he continues to get up, and march towards Phoenix, until he finally reaches her.

Wow...Cyclops gets thrown around. What a threat to his personal safety. What a great portrayal of her evil.

Things move too fast to allow things to sink in at times.

You're a smart person. There's nothing in this movie that you should have to let sink in to understand it.

X-Men nor X2 ever moved nearly as fast as X-Men: The Last Stand does.

Simply untrue. In fact, my X-Men Pacing Project will showcase just that.

There aren't several sequences between Beast in Washington and Beast in New York.

Actually, if we go by the definition of "sequences", there are. There's a cut to Xavier's school, at which point, via the laws of movies, we can assumed it is now not "a few seconds after the government meeting", but "some time later"...and an entire ethics sequence. Then there's Xavier/Storm. Time has clearly passed. Either you lack the imagination to see how that is possible (Hint for those who lack imagination: time has passed by the time we're seeing the exterior of the mansion), or you are just stubbornly refusing to admit it works because you hate the pacing issues in some parts of X3.

X2: They are in a museum. It's surely not an interstate trip. It is established, through dialogue, that they are leaving "I think it's time for us t o go". Therefore, we know they are leaving.

X-Men: The Last Stand: We see, in daytime, Beast, attending a government meeting in Washington, D.C. The next scene, is daytime, in New York, with Xavier teaching a classroom. And after that classroom sequence, Beast, is in the mansion. It is too fast.

Not to be an ass, but you do realize that daytime lasts for more than a few hours, right? And that today, if a government official wants to travel from say, Washington to New York, it will take a few hours, tops?

So what, does the film take place in real time?

I ask again...are you incapable of rational thought (read: stupid)? Do you actually need Beast to say at the end of the meeting (which, btw, we don't see, how do we know that it ever ended?). "Well, I'm leaving for Westchester" to realize that he must have left for Westchester to arrive there?

Hell, let's rewrite the whole script because many of you lack the imagination to realize that for a character to arrive somewhere a few minutes later filmwise, some time must have passed that we do not see what transpire.
]
I'll go first.

First, we'll add a caption to the mansion shot.

EXT. X-MANSION

Caption: SIX HOURS AFTER THE GOVERNMENT MEETING

Now we'll rewrite Beast's introductory scene to avoid confusion.

INT. WHATEVER ROOM HE'S IN

Beast is looking at a painting. Storm enters, Xavier behind her.

STORM: Henry!

BEAST: Ororo, Charles. I left Washington several hours ago, traveling at normal air speed, and have now arrived here.

STORM: That was fast.

BEAST: I took a plane. In this age of modern travel, one can fly great distances in just an hour or so.

(Beast winks at the audience in case anyone is still confused how he got there so "fast")

XAVIER: I have to get back to teaching classes, and I do so for several hours a day. In fact, did you know there are several hours in a day? I figure you just came here as part of your day's work, which is why you showing up now doesn't surprise me at all.

(Xavier winks at the audience)

There.

It's daytime in Washington when Beast goes to the meeting. It's daytime in New York when Xavier is teaching the class, and Beast is in the mansion. They are in consecutive scene. Washington and New York are in completely different states.

So, because it's daytime in both scenes, a decent amount of time cannot have passed? Daytime, last I knew, lasts for something like seven, eight hours in most places. Maybe more.

And it is established they knew beforehand: "Thank you for seeing me on such short notice"

Short notice isn't just appearing in someone's study as they just happen to stroll by.

Then you should be even LESS confused. See, this is a line the writers put in there so you know Beast was expected, by Xavier at least. Obviously Beast made an appointment with Xavier SOME TIME AGO in a scene we didn't see.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE EVERY SECOND OF EVERY CHARACTER'S LIFE IN A FILM!

Leaving the museum:

"Professor, I think it's time for us to leave."

"I think you're right."

Next scene, they have left, and are back in the mansion, after establishment that they were leaving the museum, that wasn't a few states away.

Washington to New York:

Beast shown, in daytime, attending government meetings in WASHINGTON D.C.

VERY NEXT SCENE, Xavier shown, in daytime, teaching a class in his mansion in Westchester, NEW YORK. Xavier strolls by his study, and Beast is there!

Then clearly some time passed between scenes. Duh.

So, allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Am I to understand that even though many of you tend to act intelligently, that in this one instance, you are in fact stupid, and can't figure out how Beast got there, or why it's still daytime?

And it makes him a lesser character because of it.

So true. Oh, no. A cameo character hasn't been fleshed out. How will I ever sleep at night?

it wouldn't hurt if we had a scene of Angel saying he would go to Alcatraz with the X-men. He could appear during the x-jet entering sequence and enter the jet with them. Come on, the "suspense" of Angel's father falling off is 0. It's just bad storytelling.

Never thought I'd see the day when broadcasting what's about to happen in the story when it's supposed to be a surprise is "good storytelling".

Let me spell this pacing thing out one last time.

Possible X3 timeline:

-Beast has a meeting, Xavier is teaching classes

-Beast leaves meeting. Xavier takes a break from a class to take a
phone call from Beast. Beast is all like "Hey, I need to talk, it's important government stuff". Xavier's all like "Hells to the yeah".

-Xavier goes back to teaching classes, Beast hops a plane to New York.

-Xavier breaks for lunch. Goes back to teaching classes.

-Continues teaching class.

-Several hours later, as Beast takes a taxi to the mansion, Xavier is teaching more classes..

-Beast continues to travel to the mansion, as people do. He arrives sometime during the time that Xavier and Storm were talking about the weather changing. Beast is shown inside the mansion by Geoffry, the butler with three ears.

-Xavier and Storm (or maybe just Xavier) are alerted that Beast is there now.

-They talk to Beast.

Problem solved.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

Maybe if you read an awful lot into it. There's nothing definitively shown. All that was implied in X-MEN was that if anything happened to Xavier, Cyclops would take care of "them". I always took that to mean the X-Men. "taking care of" doesn't mean "I'll take over your school". It means "I'll take care of our family". Since we never once saw him teach a class, I'm not sure he COULD have taken over the school. The X-Men, sure. The school, not so much. And besides...how can Cyclops "take care of them" when he's dead? It's not like the writers contradicted anything written in the story? I'm sure, had he been alive, that Cyclops would have loved to have taken care of them.

That's called foreshadowing. It's a tool good writers use. There is ONE moment where writers/director indicate that Cyclops will carry on Xavier's vision in X-MEN. None in X2. Granted, it's a great moment, but it's a single moment, and there's nothing to it about "Cyclops must take over the school". It's mostly a scene to show that Cyclops believes in Xavier's dream and will carry on if at all possible. Whereas there are multiple scenes of Storm teaching students, caring for them, etc. It's a logical progression to her arc, whether you like the politics behind it or not. It's entirely possible that even if Cyclops had survived in the movie, Storm would still be taking over the school, and Cyclops would be handling the X-Men. And besides, Cyclops is dead. I'm sure if he survived, he'd be happy to take care of them.

Well, it's still one more moment than Logan got saying HE must take over the school (with Storm, who also had NO MOMENTS like that). You're grasping at straws.

You're a smart person. There's nothing in this movie that you should have to let sink in to understand it.

And there it is. Nothing in this movie requires time to think about and comprehend. Everything's just thrown on the screen.

Simply untrue. In fact, my X-Men Pacing Project will showcase just that.

Actually, if we go by the definition of "sequences", there are. There's a cut to Xavier's school, at which point, via the laws of movies, we can assumed it is now not "a few seconds after the government meeting", but "some time later"...and an entire ethics sequence. Then there's Xavier/Storm. Time has clearly passed. Either you lack the imagination to see how that is possible (Hint for those who lack imagination: time has passed by the time we're seeing the exterior of the mansion), or you are just stubbornly refusing to admit it works because you hate the pacing issues in some parts of X3.



Not to be an ass, but you do realize that daytime lasts for more than a few hours, right? And that today, if a government official wants to travel from say, Washington to New York, it will take a few hours, tops?

So what, does the film take place in real time?

I ask again...are you incapable of rational thought (read: stupid)? Do you actually need Beast to say at the end of the meeting (which, btw, we don't see, how do we know that it ever ended?). "Well, I'm leaving for Westchester" to realize that he must have left for Westchester to arrive there?

Hell, let's rewrite the whole script because many of you lack the imagination to realize that for a character to arrive somewhere a few minutes later filmwise, some time must have passed that we do not see what transpire.
]
I'll go first.

First, we'll add a caption to the mansion shot.

EXT. X-MANSION

Caption: SIX HOURS AFTER THE GOVERNMENT MEETING

Now we'll rewrite Beast's introductory scene to avoid confusion.

INT. WHATEVER ROOM HE'S IN

Beast is looking at a painting. Storm enters, Xavier behind her.

STORM: Henry!

BEAST: Ororo, Charles. I left Washington several hours ago, traveling at normal air speed, and have now arrived here.

STORM: That was fast.

BEAST: I took a plane. In this age of modern travel, one can fly great distances in just an hour or so.

(Beast winks at the audience in case anyone is still confused how he got there so "fast")

XAVIER: I have to get back to teaching classes, and I do so for several hours a day. In fact, did you know there are several hours in a day? I figure you just came here as part of your day's work, which is why you showing up now doesn't surprise me at all.

(Xavier winks at the audience)

There.



So, because it's daytime in both scenes, a decent amount of time cannot have passed? Daytime, last I knew, lasts for something like seven, eight hours in most places. Maybe more.



Then you should be even LESS confused. See, this is a line the writers put in there so you know Beast was expected, by Xavier at least. Obviously Beast made an appointment with Xavier SOME TIME AGO in a scene we didn't see.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEE EVERY SECOND OF EVERY CHARACTER'S LIFE IN A FILM!

Then clearly some time passed between scenes. Duh.

So, allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Am I to understand that even though many of you tend to act intelligently, that in this one instance, you are in fact stupid, and can't figure out how Beast got there, or why it's still daytime?

Never thought I'd see the day when broadcasting what's about to happen in the story when it's supposed to be a surprise is "good storytelling".

Let me spell this pacing thing out one last time.

Possible X3 timeline:

-Beast has a meeting, Xavier is teaching classes

-Beast leaves meeting. Xavier takes a break from a class to take a
phone call from Beast. Beast is all like "Hey, I need to talk, it's important government stuff". Xavier's all like "Hells to the yeah".

-Xavier goes back to teaching classes, Beast hops a plane to New York.

-Xavier breaks for lunch. Goes back to teaching classes.

-Continues teaching class.

-Several hours later, as Beast takes a taxi to the mansion, Xavier is teaching more classes..

-Beast continues to travel to the mansion, as people do. He arrives sometime during the time that Xavier and Storm were talking about the weather changing. Beast is shown inside the mansion by Geoffry, the butler with three ears.

-Xavier and Storm (or maybe just Xavier) are alerted that Beast is there now.

-They talk to Beast.

Problem solved.

You could perhaps knock off the attitude. No one is saying it has to be telegraphed. But it would be nice if it FELT like time was passing. That timeline you mentioned is all well and good, but that's NOT what's implied by the editing of the film. Period.

And while we're at the "laws of movies", the type of cut between Beast's meeting and Xavier's class is referred to as a parallel cut, which indicates two scenes taking place at the same time. Passage of time would be indicated by a wipe, dissolve, fade, or other kind of transition. Your move.

 

[The Guard]

You could perhaps knock off the attitude. No one is saying it has to be telegraphed. But it would be nice if it FELT like time was passing. That timeline you mentioned is all well and good, but that's NOT what's implied by the editing of the film. Period.

When you all display some common sense, I'll knock off the attitude. Till then, I kind of have to wonder if you are indeed too stupid to figure out the obvious, regardless of the "laws of film". You say you don't want it telegraphed, but I simply don't believe you.

And while we're at the "laws of movies", the type of cut between Beast's meeting and Xavier's class is referred to as a parallel cut, which indicates two scenes taking place at the same time. Passage of time would be indicated by a wipe, dissolve, fade, or other kind of transition. Your move.

Really? Last I knew, a paralell cut involved parallell action, which the Beast/school scenes clearly don't, since one sequence ends, and then another begins. They don't run concurrently. What makes it a parallell cut, then? It's not like the scenes are cutting back and forth. Why would the filmmakers want that scene, when Beast has clearly already traveled, to take place at the same time? Will someone explain to me why an entire scene that could easily take place later in the day doesnt indicate a passage of time? You mentioned other kinds of transition...like a cut to another locale (or in this case, a bridging shot)? Feels a lot like a bridging shot to me. Not a parallell cut. The bridging shot of Xavier's mansion serves two major purposes: one, to indicate that the locale of the action onscreen has changed, and two, to indicate that some amount of time has passed.

You're so damn obsessed with finding and highlighting the flaws in the movie and justifying saying that it has a low of flaws...that you're finding flaws that aren't even there.

BTW, do you know how Bryan Singer shows time passing in X2 after the whole "museum" thing? He shows the X-Men in the shot in one shot, cuts to where they are suddenly gone in the next shot and the museum is kicking back to life, and then cuts to a shot of the sign for the mansion, before cutting to a shot of the X-Men inside it. Now, while we see the X-Men are gone, we don't see any real passage of time (we're left to use our common sense to figure out what happened during the cuts). There's no wipe, fade, dissolve, etc. Just cuts. So how is this any different than what Ratner did? Oh. Because Ratner doesn't have Beast tell you he's leaving the meeting to go to Westchester. Gotcha.

Use your brains.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

My opinion differing from yours is no indication of a lack of common sense on either part, so I'll say nicely one last time, drop the snark.

As far as Singer's cut, the difference is both shots follow the same character, indicating a passage of time. X-Men in museum, establishing shot of mansion, X-Men in mansion. The editing in X-Men gives us Beast in Washington, parallel cut to Xavier teaching class, then Beast at the mansion. Regardless of whatever internal logic tells us, in the context of the film, the pacing is wrong. The editing makes it FEEL like not enough time has passed.

As far as Angel is concerned: I have no problem with him coming from nowhere: I connected those dots just fine, and Ratner gives us enough that it makes sense without needing to be explicit. What's missing is a moment, just a moment, between father and son afterward. It feels empty as it is.

 

[The Guard]

The difference is, Singer told you the X-Men were going home. Thank goodness, because if he hadn't, you might be wondering how they got there so fast. You know what's great about the museum cuts? They show a passage of time, but they don't show enough of one to allow the X-Men to reach home so quickly. They just show that the X-Men are gone and Xavier has allowed people to come out of their trances. How the hell did the X-Men get home so fast in X2?

Funny, but I could have sworn that the cuts from mansion to Xavier's class to Storm also follow a storyline, indicating a passage of time (which obviously takes place later in the story, timewise, given the events of the story). There is also roughly three minutes of screentime in between, to allow anyone to let the fact that maybe Beast traveled to Westchester "sink in". And I'll say it again. Use your brains.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

It. Is. Not. Enough. You can't allow the same cut that expresses the passage of a half hour, tops, to express the passage of at least three hours. Yes, intellectually I know that time must have passed. But through the language of film, I don't GET that feeling. It's choppy editing, and that's really as objective as it gets. There needed to be more material, a change of clothes for Beast, a change in the time of day--SOMETHING that made it feel like time passed. As it is, I'm taken out of the movie by needing to rationalize Beast's presence there.

EDIT to acknowledge your edit: I am using my goddamn brain. Listen. I don't want the plot telegraphed. I want the editing to be not ****. Why don't YOU use YOUR brains and recognize when editing is muddled and unclear, instead of sitting here defending a piece of **** film by tossing around insults? How's that? I'm tired of you acting all pious and treating Nell and I like we are literally STUPID because we think something is ineffective. And guess what? IT'S OBJECTIVELY INEFFECTIVE!

 

[X-Maniac]

It. Is. Not. Enough. You can't allow the same cut that expresses the passage of a half hour, tops, to express the passage of at least three hours. Yes, intellectually I know that time must have passed. But through the language of film, I don't GET that feeling. It's choppy editing, and that's really as objective as it gets. There needed to be more material, a change of clothes for Beast, a change in the time of day--SOMETHING that made it feel like time passed. As it is, I'm taken out of the movie by needing to rationalize Beast's presence there.

EDIT to acknowledge your edit: I am using my goddamn brain. Listen. I don't want the plot telegraphed. I want the editing to be not ****. Why don't YOU use YOUR brains and recognize when editing is muddled and unclear, instead of sitting here defending a piece of **** film by tossing around insults? How's that? I'm tired of you acting all pious and treating Nell and I like we are literally STUPID because we think something is ineffective. And guess what? IT'S OBJECTIVELY INEFFECTIVE!

I think you are indeed in the grip of Analysis Paralysis....

I agree with Guard (and i haven't always agreed).

It didn't work for you doesn't mean it didn't work. It just means you didn't like it. SUBJECTIVELY INEFFECTIVE. You can't expect to create a thread like this and get slavish devotion. Not gonna happen.

And please don't start with the 'I'm studying film' nonsense. We already have Bosef proclaiming 'as I'm a writer, I'm more attuned'.... blah blah. Perhaps I should mention I am a published writer who edits words and images (and can also edit sound/music) as a profession, and have been doing so for 20 years, and I do not find those scene transitions ineffective. Movies do not happen in real time.

The link between the scenes is that we hear Beast's diplomacy is needed, then we see him doing just that. He's obviously been shown into the study to wait for Xavier. The link is the 'diplomacy' line, with Beast going back to see old friends, with whom he has strong loyalties, to discuss the implications of the cure (and Mystique's capture).

The time difference between the government meeeting and his visit to the mansion is, frankly, irrelevant. He obviously went there fairly promptly, I have no idea of travel times and i don't really care. If he'd said 'Just seconds ago, I learnd of the cure' then that would be ridiculous, but he didn't.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

So I'm not allowed to pull the I'm studying film card, but you're allowed to pull the this is my job card? Nice.

I have no issue with the actual passage of time. It's the editing. It's rushed. I'm not looking for slavish devotion, I'm looking for respectful counterarguments, which the Guard is failing to provide. My argument is being misunderstood: as a result of the editing, it FEELS too fast. Don't intellectualize it with what you know is implied to happen: taken just as a film, and in the context of the medium, it's too fast.

 

[BMM]

Maybe if you read an awful lot into it. There's nothing definitively shown. All that was implied in X-MEN was that if anything happened to Xavier, Cyclops would take care of "them". I always took that to mean the X-Men. "taking care of" doesn't mean "I'll take over your school". It means "I'll take care of our family". Since we never once saw him teach a class, I'm not sure he COULD have taken over the school.

I always interpreted the school as being a family. I never limited Cyclops’ dialogue to mean that he would only take care of the X-Men. Since he had just finished saying that Xavier taught him everything in his life that was ever worth knowing, I took the rest of his dialogue to mean that he would continue Xavier’s dream on the whole, including the school, the X-Men, and all they represent.

. . . and we are shown Cyclops teaching a class.

 

[The Guard]

Still waiting on why it is indeed a "parallell cut".

I'm not treating people like they're stupid because they think the scene is ineffective. Won't argue an opinion like that. I'm treating people like they're stupid (in this one instance) because several of them keep going "how did Beast get there so fast" and "The cut can't possibly indicate what it indicates".

I always thought you were supposed to FEEL emotions and story, not the thematic weight of the passage of time. But, to each his own.

And I've already said...motorcycles don't count.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

But you can't very well feel the thematic weight of a film if you're pulled out by poor editing and a horrid sense of passage of time, which is exactly what this film suffers from (one of the things, anyway). It's a parallel cut because the movie has been showing us alternating scenes thus far that take place very close to each other in proximity, and so this cut should be no different. All of a sudden, Beast is there again, and it's a real WTF? moment. Yes, I know, in my brain, that he took a plane, and it's obviously been a few hours. But the way the film is edited, I don't get that feeling. It feels off. That's all I'm saying.

I'm really not gonna argue this anymore, because it's not getting anywhere, and I'd much rather go over Nell's analysis, if he's even reading this thread anymore.

 

[gambitfire]

They did. There's a shot on him...you know, watching the X-Men leave after having overheard the situation.

hey you're right it is there.

wow i wonder why so many ppl missed it?

*coughsPacing*

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm really not gonna argue this anymore, because it's not getting anywhere, and I'd much rather go over Nell's analysis, if he's even reading this thread anymore.

I am, and very much looking forward to your response of my analysis.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

Okay, so after long wait, here's my take

I'll just break down the scenes the same way you did, Boba.

-----

1. 20 Years Ago – This is a very good scene that helps to establish Jean's character. It gives us a foundation of her powers, and her true potential. What this scene (and overall, the movie) would have benefitted from, however, was incorporating Jean's childhood friend, whom Jean "felt" die. It would help to explain the "evil" Phoenix persona that we see later in the film. With that complaint out of the way, however (and it's more something I would have preferred, rather than a complaint), I do like this scene. I enjoy seeing Xavier and Magneto together, as friends, as they once were. In a way, it helps bring the story full circle, as X-Men and X2 showed their respect for each other, and this brings it around to show us the earlier stages of their relationship. Xavier's line about "Will you control it, or let it control you" is a very good line to lay the foundation of what Jean's arc is going to be about.

I agree. I think that what I originally saw as a pacing problem may just be a lack of context. Why is 10 year old Jean a powerful über-*****? I think Annie's death would have helped a lot. In fact, if all of Claremont's added Phoenix material from the novel had been added to the movie, Phoenix's story would have been MUCH stronger.

It does feel wierd, after X-Men and X2, to jump right into the film, and not have a monologue. But in a way, X2 did kind of "conclude" the monologues, in a way. The end of X2 has Jean quoting Xavier's monologue from X-Men. In a way, it makes it feel as though the monologues have been brought full circle. The monologue is noticeably absent, but I also feel that it's okay, and not all that inconsistent.

Again, I have to agree.

2. 10 Years Ago – Brilliant scene. Not only does this scene introduce us to Angel and his father, as well as give the cure a personal story attatchment, but it also helps to show the public view of mutants; Warren's "Oh God, not you", and Angel's "Dad, I'm sorry" truly carry the foundation of what the core of the X-Men mythos is about; being different, and the lack of tolerance that one faces. In this instance, we see a child struggling for his father's acceptance, physically mutilating himself to try to fit in, and not be a disappointment.

It leads into the credits sequence. Obviously, something this minor has no real impact upon the movie. But this is my favorite CGI opening sequence. Powell came strong with the theme song, and it is my favorite theme of the trilogy.

I think everyone on either side of the debate agrees that this is THE scene. It's probably my favorite moment in the trilogy, MUCH better than Bobby's "coming out" scene.

3. The Danger Room – The scene is a bit choppy. However, overall, I feel this scene works. On many different levels. It establishes a few story arcs; Rogue may have come to grips with her mutation in X2, but the fact that Iceman now has a wandering eye is going to make her feel a bit insecure. This scene establishes this particular story arc. It establishes Iceman, Rogue, Colossus, and Kitty Pryde as X-Men. Iceman and Rogue were seen in uniform in the White House in X2. Kitty Pryde was mentioned in the White House (Xavier: "Let's just say I know a little girl who can walk through walls"), and this scene gives payoff to the implication that she'd been doing work for the X-Men already. And establishing Colossus as an X-Men member gives payoff for the bravery he showed in X2 helping to save the children, as well as offering to help Wolverine. It establishes the Fastball Special, which will have payoff later in the film. The ending portion of the sequence establishes that Cyclops isn't right since Jean's death, and perhaps isn't the best leader right now. And it does all of that while giving us the Danger Room, Sentinels, and Days of Future Past all in one scene. Although the execution could have been better, the execution is not bad at all. The concept is absolutley amazing. This scene works.

I liked the idea behind this scene a lot. The Days of Future Past scene was a nice touch. Part of me thinks we should have seen more of the Sentinel, but the other part of me thinks the surprise would've been much better if that clip hadn't been shown on Leno. Again, the biggest issue with this scene is the editing--it's so damn choppy, and for some reason (hmm, I wonder?) the editor seems to have gotten instructions to only include frames with Logan.

4. Scott Grieves – I can totally buy Cyclops neglecting his duties because of Jean's loss (and the fact that she is still haunting him). Cyclops has left the team before. His grieving (and eventual departure to Alkali Lake) is totally in character to that. And of course, Marsden is a pretty good actor in this role, and he nails it.

I like this scene. I realize that Cyke has left the team before in the comics, but I still think I'd rather have seen a Cyke who buries himself in his work as a result of the grief. He could still be a changed man, still be gruff and insensitive, but at the same time he could actually have something to DO. Marsden does really great with what he's given, though.

5. Rogue and Bobby – Rogue, who was becoming more confident in herself, has reason to be a bit insecure. Iceman seems to have a wandering eye (at least from her perspective), and she knows it's because of her powers. It establishes Rogue's arc rather well. What I do find kind of ironic, however, is her accusation to Bobby; "You're a guy Bobby, your mind's only on one thing."...... says the girl who cures herself so that she can kiss a boy...

Interesting note on Rogue's decision. I hadn't noticed that. For now, Rogue's debate is well done, and sort of makes sense. But I am fundamentally opposed to where it ends up, and I'm not alone in that. I wanna see Rogue get angry at Bobby, be who she is, powers and all, and run off with Gambit into the sunset. Well, maybe not the last part.

6. Scott and Logan – Wow, I really like this scene. It really showcases Scott's grief over Jean. There is a heavy implication that there's a bit more than just the fact that Jean died that's bothering Scott. We see (for the last time, unfortunatley) the Scott & Logan rivalry. Logan tries to play the supporting, caring friend, but the fact is, he just doesn't understand. And Scott puts Wolverine right in his place. This is the kind of scene that proves that this really should have been Cyclops' movie. But, alas...

Agreed. I wish we'd seen more of Scott like this, again back to my "buried in his work" argument.

7. Meet Beast – Ab-so-freaking-lutley-brilliant. Our first look at Beast is a scene of him hanging upside down in his office. I cannot think of a better way to introduce the character. The scene helps to show what the President's "next move" was after the meeting with the X-Men in X2. It is a new administration, but the fact that there is a Department of Mutant Affairs, and the administration wants diplomatic interactions with mutant kind show that the government has come to an understanding, at the very least, for mutant kind, that not all of them are evil. The scene establishes Magneto as a terrorist, and shows that he's been fighting this war "every step of the way" with his terrorist attacks across the globe. I don't really like Mystique, but I like her scene being interrogated. What's sorely missing is a reference to Senator Kelly. "You know who she's been imitating? Secretary Trask." A mention to Senator Kelly, and the fact that he's dead, should have been made, simply for continuity purposes. But I guess that's a minor detail. We first learn of the cure here, although it isn't blatantly stated what has everyone so nervous.

I liked this scene as well. It puts mutants on a national scale, which hadn't really been done with the first two films. It was hinted at in X2, but never really expounded on. As far as Kelly, yes, it's a minor detail, but they went out of their way to say Mystique was imitating someone, so they should have finished the job and made the nod to X2. It was such an unnecessary line to begin with that it's a slap in the face to completely ignore the previous film.

8. Ethics class – This scene really feels like a Singer type scene. Just with the cameos, and all that... it really keeps the vibe of the school from the previous 2 movies alive. The Jones reference is nice, from X2, keeping a bit of continuity, even if unnecessary. But minor details sometimes can help the larger picture. I love the "Einstein wasn't a mutant... so far as we know" line.

Yet again I agree. Ellen Page really nails Kitty here, as well. This is where I bought her character.

9. Charles and Storm - For the most part, this scene is just bad. The little introduction on the balcony is pretty good, the whole "I don't have to be psychic to see that something's bothering you" is a nice touch of the bond between Ororo and Xavier. The cameo in the hall of the student with the airplanes helps to give off that Singer-feel that the Ethics Class scene did. But the discussion between Storm and Xavier is horrible. "I was hoping you'd take my place someday" "But Scott's..." "Scott's a changed man"... he's no longer Scott Summers, he's Richard White, and he went to Metropolis. This scene is just so full of "we're totally ****ing over a major character, and we don't really care" that it hurts. Storm's "There's something you're not telling us" is quickly forgotten as they meet Beast, and never really recalled again in the film. This scene just hurts.

I liked the idea of a connection between Ororo and Xavier, something that was missing sorely from the first two movies. Xavier had these strong connections with Scott and Jean...and oh yeah, the black chick with the freaky eyes lives here too. The conversation about Scott is unforgivable, and I still doubt the "significance" of Storm's last line that Penn keeps harping on.

10. The Cure – It's a nice establishment that Beast knows Xavier, Storm, and the X-Men from a previous time. My only concern is, how did he get here so quickly after his meeting in Washington? I suppose he could have taken that 3 hour train ride from DC to New York, but still, it's a little too fast for my tastes. This is where I first noticed this movie was going to be paced a bit too quickly. But otherwise, it's a rather effective introduction to what is going to be the main plot of the movie.

God, Nell, stop being so damn agreeable! Yet again, I'm with you all the way. I think they all react suitably to the cure (except Storm), but I still would like to have seen a little more time spent on the ethics of the issue.

11. Storm Reacts to the Cure – Throughout this entire trilogy, these actors have become lost in the characters. I don't see the actors portraying characters, I see the characters. That's how brilliant the acting has been in these films. The only difference is Halle Berry; I don't see Storm. I don't even see Halle Berry as Storm. I just see Halle Berry. And this scene is a perfect example of that. She just keeps going on and on like an annoying *****, and finally Xavier shuts her up "Storm! They're announcing it now." The way he calls her name just wreaks of "*****, shut your whiney ass up!" Maybe it's just because I was wanting her to shut her whiney ass up, and would have told her so to her face, so I heard what I wanted to hear. But as the trilogy goes on, I see less and less of Storm, and more and more of Halle.

Again, I agree. I sort of bought Halle as Storm in X-Men. She had a decent wig (well, at least it looked kind of like the comics, occasionally), she had a little ethnic dress thing going on (great touch by Louise Mingenbach, the costume designer), and she had the accent (which worked some of the time). She didn't have much to actually do, but when she did do something, I thought, hey, it's Storm. She's watered down, but she's Storm. Then Halle won her Oscar, and suddenly she's a Bankable Star. It shows in X2, and even more in X3.

12. Announcing the Cure – I really like this scene of Warren Worthington on Alcatraz announcing the cure, while Rogue watches on TV. The capture of her face is perfect. In an X-Men deleted scene, she asks about getting cured. And now, here it is... she can get cured. She may have learned to accept her powers and become more confident, but an opportunity like this is something too good to pass up. She can cope with her powers, or become what she's always wanted to be. For Rogue to contemplate the cure is actually the perfect arc for her in this film. How it was concluded... well that's for later in this break down. Finally a line from Storm that I like, and that gives the film a sense of dire consequences: "There's nothing wrong with you. Or any of us for that matter." That line just works, and it sits with me.

Anna really sells the reaction. This is one of those times I wish X-Men hadn't been hacked to pieces, because this would've been full-circle for that particular aspect of Rogue's character. I liked Storm's line. I didn't like the awkward silence afterward, where it seemed like maybe Rogue should have said something in her defense, instead of bowing down before The Evil Beeyotch Halle Berry. Again, all we needed is a little more time. The story isn't urgent yet; give the characters time to sit down and talk, dammit!

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

13. The Church of Magneto – Oh yea, now we're talking. This is the kind of scene I was waiting for after seeing the trailer, and it totally delivered. Magneto's speech is wonderful. Although I would have preferred the version of it seen in the trailers, but what can ya do? The callback to Magneto's concentration camp days with his tattoo is brilliant. I absolutley love this scene all over the place.

I like this scene. I think the "version" from the trailer was just dialogue splicing, and not actually a difference. I liked that they touched on Magneto's history again. It makes those ugly Omega tattoos worth it to get that line. It also speaks volumes on Magneto's character--he's proud to be a mutant, but he's not running around like some Wannabe Goth Punk With Obligatory Tattoo. He's better than that, and he knows it. Like several scenes in this film, it could've been slowed down---once again, the story isn't rushing to the climax yet, we're still in exposition. Talented writers can take their time with exposition to make it interesting, interweaving it with characterization. Novices and hacks rush through exposition unnecessarily because they're afraid they'll bore the audience.

14. Mystique on the truck – A good introduction to show us where Mystique is being held, and a nice little addition to her personality.

More character moments like this wouldn't have hurt the film.

15. Meet Jimmy – More of everything I ever expected when seeing the trailer. Although I'm sure that there are safer places in the nation than Alcatraz, but whatever. Beast's reaction to his "normal" hand is pretty nice. For fans, it's a call back to what he would have been before he was blue (something we saw briefly in X2), for people who aren't in the know, it's still a nice piece to show his reaction to being "normal". This scene captures the tone of what this movie was supposed to be.

Agreed. There needed to be more focus on the internal conflict among the X-Men as a team, and as individuals. This scene hits the nail on the head.

16. Alkali Lake I – The shot of Cyclops on the bike... Powell's theme blaring in the background, all of it just wreaks of something badass about to happen. Cyclops walking towards the lake, Jean's voice and presence getting stronger and stronger. Yup. Something badass is gonna happen. This scene is playing out just the way it should. The voices getting stronger. "Stop it. STOP!!!" *BLAST* YES!!! Wait... what's that? The water? Scott flies back. A light. It's... it's JEAN! (Who didn't see that one coming ) And then the scene goes horribly wrong.

"Jean?" "Scott?" "How?" "I dunno." "I wanna see your eyes." WHAT?! Random much? Nope, there is absolutley no possible way this is just being done to get Cyclops out of the way. "I can control it now." How do you know? Okay, the scene of them standing face to face, as she reaches for his glasses, we're back to how this should have been. Cyclops' optic blasts fading away, as they stare into each others' eyes and share a passionate kiss? Yea. That's how this was supposed to go. And then WHAT?! She gets evil and his skin bubbles. You have got to be ****ting me. This scene is so right on so many levels, and so wrong on so many levels. This scene is a perfect example of the movie on the whole; So right and so wrong, all at the same time. The lack of a Jean firebird doesn't bother me. But perhaps that's just because I'm not as big a fan of the Phoenix Saga as everyone else. This scene got so much right, and so much wrong, that I don't know how to feel about it.

The build-up to the scene suggests something more epic than we ultimately got. The lack of a firebird wouldn't bother me, except that the Phoenix saga was The Big Deal with this movie. Comic book movies have different standards. If you're gonna hype up the Phoenix saga, you have to deliver, and one of those expectations is the firebird.

17. Alkali Lake II – Okay, so we're starting to get back to what this movie was supposed to be. Let's forget about the "You don't want to be here" which is pretty random. The fog, the telekinetic activity, the creepy vibe... THIS is what this movie was supposed to be. Alright, so we're back on track here. Storm clears the fog, and the telekinetic activity becomes clear to everyone. Something is not right at Alkali Lake. Wolverine and Storm split up, and Wolverine finds Cyclops' glasses in a visually brilliant shot. The cry comes from Storm, and they find Jean alive. Everything about this scene is what this scene was supposed to be.

I don't understand why Ratner felt the need to ADR a conversation between Logan and Ororo. The scene would've been much better in silence, because everything that comes afterward is A material.

18. Examining Jean – A good explanation of what happened to Jean, but not enough of it. Her powers were subconcious, so Xavier put in blocks, and it made a part of her mind evil that he blocked off. She survived in a telekinetic cocoon (I buy that, didn't that happen in the comics?). And the personality called itself Phoenix. Okay, that's the part when I'm just like "wha...?!" There's no reason to call herself Phoenix, she just does it. Bleh. At least it's not a cosmic entity. However, the interaction between Xavier and Wolverine is nice. Xavier had to do what he had to do for the good of Jean, and everyone else. It was a hard decision, but he chose the lesser of 2 evils. And here comes Wolverine, who quite frankly, this is none of his business, and he's questioning Xavier? Xavier has every right to be pissed off, and doesn't come off as a dick at all. Wolverine's constant *****ing comes off as an *******. Although it does show that Xavier isn't a total goodie too shoes. Which works.

I like the interaction between Xavier and Wolverine, but he is a little forceful. I agree that it's none of Logan's business. Scott should be having this conversation. Given what we've seen in the comics of late, I'd have loved to see Scott's faith in Xavier shattered. I think I may have allowed Xavier's subsequent dickiness to affect my opinion of him here. I watched this scene again, and I agree with you this time around. It works, and sells Phoenix as a threat.

19. Angel’s Cure – Once again, a scene that did everything it was supposed to. Angel all grown up. His daddy wants to force the cure upon him, and he decides to be his own man and reject it. This scene is one of the many moments in this film that I waited 3 years for.

Agreed again. Do you feel strongly about Ratner's choice of shots, though? I still refuse to believe Michael Murphy would look directly into the camera like that, so I'm blaming Ratner.

20. Magneto Rescues Mystique – Another scene that was everything is was supposed to be. Style and grace from Magneto as he nonchalantly destroys a mobile prison convoy to get to Mystique. Okay, so the way that Multiple Man and Juggernaut blindly followed Magneto's cause is a bit awkward. But everything else is brilliant. I like Juggernaut's intro. Mystique taking the cure dart for Magneto, and getting cured as a nice touch. Maybe it's because I hate Mystique and was pissed off when she survived Wolverine's claw in X-Men, and have been waiting for her to be out of the picture ever since. But I say good riddance. It also shows just how cold and brutal Magneto really can be. The way Mystique has been made up physically works brilliantly in this scene; being naked allowed her to be naked in this scene. And this isn't a perverted "I WANT BOOBIES!" thing. No longer mutant, Mystique is emotionally naked, and her lying naked on the floor brilliantly demonstrates that. I mean, it's the Rat-man, I'm sure he was just jumping at the chance to get Rebecca naked without the paint. But on an emotional and symbolic level, that scene works wonders.

You hate Mystique? She was a lot of people's favorite (not JUST because Rebecca is naked). I liked her in X2 a lot, I was glad she had more to do. That said, I also agree with her exit here. It's really well done, and does show Magneto's callousness toward his followers, which helps our understanding of his actions at Alcatraz.

21. Hank Resigns – So the cure has been weaponized. Motivation for Magneto. Reason for Hank to leave and go back to the X-Men, because now the war really is coming. Nice scene.

I like it. It screws with the timeline like you wouldn't believe, but it is a necessary scene, and I like it a lot. Josef Sommer is a good actor, too.

22. Logan and Jean – Once again, we have another scene that did everything is was supposed to. This scene shows the new dominance of the Phoenix over Jean, as we see Phoenix toying with Logan and his emotions and desires. When he realizes something is wrong, we see the torment and the struggle of Jean within herself. Unfortunately, this is really the only time we get a sense of that struggle. Fortunately for the rest of the movie, this scene deals with that struggle rather well, so even without the depth it needed, we are given a sense of what is at stake here. Jean has totally lost control of herself. It is another one of those scenes that promised to work a bit better in the trailer ("We can help you. We can fix it. We can make it like it was! Stay with me" works a bit better than what we got, but hey, what can you do?), but this scene still works brilliantly.

Again, I think the trailer dialogue was simply spliced, and it was always like this. I agree that whoever edited the trailer had a better sense of the tension, but it still works great here. Famke does a wonderful job here, and needed more scenes with this conflict. Oh well.

23. Magneto Plots – It gives a good indication of Magneto's sense of justification for his war. It also provides Magneto with the information of Jean's rising. And Magneto knows it's a good idea to have that on his side.

It's a good scene. I think I was harsh in labeling it unnecessary, it's just off putting because it's so short.

24. The Infirmary II – NOW Xavier comes off as an *******. "Jean? Where's Jean?" "What have you done?" "I think she killed Scott." "I warned you."

How did what you told Wolverine affect what Jean did before you told him?

Anyways... I guess Xavier does have cause to be pissed. Wolverine, once again, is putting his nose where it doesn't belong. And who knows what consequences may arise now that he's agitated Jean and the Phoenix?

I think Halle gives a requisite gasp when Logan says that Jean killed Scott, and that's it. Xavier does have reason to be pissed here, I just think it's a little dickish.

25. Jean’s House – Now this movie is where it needs to be. The stakes are high. Xavier is desperate to save his beloved pupil. And here's Magneto. The creepy aura of Alkali Lake is bumped up a notched with the shaking picture frames, the bubbling water cooler, etc... Xavier and Magneto's entrance into the house is nice. Xavier's interaction with Jean is splendid. He starts off, trying to ease her, and comfort her. But he must compete with Magneto, who is instigating her, until she finally loses control. A brilliant battle takes place; X-Men vs. Brotherhood, Xavier vs. Jean. All hell erupts. This movie promised epic events. This is the first of those epic events. John Powell's score takes the scene to another level. The whole scene is absolutley brilliant... except for the effects of Xavier blowing up into little bits. Didn't like that. I did like the way his clothes were shredded, and the way he skin began to peel. But the actual explosion, not so swell. Wolverine's struggle to get to Xavier is powerful, emotional. Magneto is in absolute shock at witnessing the destruction of his best friend. Jean is in a state of utter confussion and mental weakness, and Magneto preys upon that. Wolverine and Storm's reaction is very powerful. Although I doubt Wolverine would drop to his knees, but whatever, this was a very powerful moment. No need to ruin it so the guy can give off his macho man aura.

Love it. I think the demolecularization (God I hate that "word") effect doesn't work close up period. But it's okay. A little gross, truth be told. But I actually don't think there's anything I dislike about this scene. I just wish the rest of the movie were this good.

26. The Funeral – This part gets me nearly every time. This is one of the few moments where I buy Halle's performance. Or maybe it's seeing the emotion put in by everyone else. I dunno. But I tear up a bit everytime I see this scene. Wolverine is in character for one final moment as he stands on the balcony, isolated from everyone else. Savor it. We won't see much of Logan aka Wolverine from here on out.

The speech isn't bad, but I feel like the X-Men called Halle Berry to give the eulogy. It doesn't feel like Storm, for some reason. I don't know. I still agree with you, for the record.

 

[Halcohol]

I think the demolecularization (God I hate that "word") effect doesn't work close up period.

I stopped using it back in June. I've switched to "disintegration".

 

[gambitfire]

Why don't we give it a name something sweet but simple.

How about ..... i can't think of anything.

Actually

I'll call it the Willow.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

27. Skating on the Pond – Finally! A scene that just goes SLOW! Because of that, it's one of my favorite scenes in the film. Because, finally, we just have a character moment. A moment where the actions of the day can sink in. I was all against the inclusion of Kitty Pryde in this film. Well, I particularly enjoyed it here. Maybe because she was part of one of the very few pure character moments, but I enjoyed her inclusion. Iceman trying to cheer her up was a nice touch. I like the skate on the pond. Rogue watching it, and misinterpreting what is going on was a nice touch. This scene sets in motion her arc, an arc that, until the end, I think was well done.

I like this scene. I'm in the minority that would have preferred that Kitty kiss Bobby. Kitty would be the aggressive one, and it would give MUCH more weight to Rogue's misunderstanding. And then she'd not get cured because she'd be angry at Bobby and she'd leave with Gambit, riding into the...well, you get the point.

28. Rogue Moves Out – So let's get to that scene. Rogue leaves, after seeing the moment between Iceman and Kitty Pryde. There is a very touching moment here with Wolverine that has me close to tearing up everytime. I dunno. It just hits me. So I give this scene credit for doing what it was supposed to do.

I like the scene with Logan. These two work really well together, and should have been together more in both X2 and The Last Stand.

29. Magneto Talks to Jean – Finally, there's a little bit more explanation to this whole Jean situation. She's the next stage of evolution, Magneto sees her as a goddess while Xavier wanted to hold her back. Magneto strokes her ego. But she's Phoenix. So she's kinda crazy. And she toys with him using the cure needles. A VERY nice jab at Magneto, who's biggest attribute is his pride in his mutation. To show a threat towards that, Jean shows that she's the one in charge, that Magneto can't control her. His rebuttal towards her shows that he doesn't want to control her, he wants her to be what she is. For someone in her mental state, who's very confused, even if she doesn't need to ally with Magneto, the fact that someone is around, stroking her ego, telling her all the things she wants to hear, would be a very appealing situation. The interaction with Pyro, in which Magneto scolds him about Xavier, is absolutely brilliant, and a very good touch to showcase the respect that Xavier and Magneto have for each other.

I agree with on the ego stroking. I just wish we'd seen more of that angle, though this scene gets the point across.

30. Close the School? – Kinda really a pointless scene. Xavier is dead, and Beast, one of his original pupils, wants to honor his legacy by closing down the school?! And then when Angel shows up, and Storm keeps it open, Beast is happy? Really, this was a pointless scene that really added nothing to the film. It was there to give Halle "more to do". And simply put, it didn't work. It's followed up by a little chuckle moment for Colossus, one that's inaccurate to his character, as he needs to be metal'd up in order to gain his strength. And how would Colossus have seen Rogue leave when she left late at night, and talked only to Wolverine? I dunno, just a lot about this sequence, except Iceman not finding Rogue, works.

Again, I agree. Even the suggestion of closing the school really bothers me. That shouldn't even be a consideration. I'm surprised Halle doesn't flip **** on Beast for saying that.

31. Logan at the Grave – Okay, I guess it's an okay moment. But we're at that part of the movie right now that's doing everything it's not supposed to do. Really, I feel that this movie, from after Xavier's death, until Pyro bombing the cure clinic, does everything it shouldn't have. This is the part of the film where Logan is turned into Jean's savior. A role that should have been for Cyclops. And why the studio didn't want that, I'll never know. Did they actually think that less people would see this film if Cyclops was given a role? For telling the story that it's telling, it works. But it's not telling the right story at this point, and this is what's bad about it.

I like the idea of this scene, but yes, it should be Cyclops. At this point, though, I'm inclined to think it still is passable with Logan. But not for long!

32. The Cure Clinic – Okay, now, we're done with that whole "doing everything we're not supposed to do" phase, and we're back on track. This is the first time Iceman and Pyro interact after Pyro's defection to the Brotherhood. And it's a VERY nice moment. "Come on Iceman. Make a move!" I love that. The terrorist tape on the TV from Magneto is absolutely brilliant, and captured a piece of Magneto's character that the previous films didn't. It's a small moment, but it's one of my favorites of the film. And of the trilogy. The President gets the military involved. We're seeing the stakes raised. We're seeing this war on the horizon, the one that Magneto has preached. He's now bringing that war to the doorstep. Everything about this sequence is very good. The movie is back to doing everything it's supposed to.

I like this a lot. We should have seen multiple raids, though. Instead, Magneto tells us about them. Show, don't tell.

33. Fight in the Woods – We're having those pacing issues again; Wolverine got here pretty quick. But take that out of the equation, and we have a VERY nice scene. Once again, back to doing what it's supposed to do. Wolverine in berserker mode, in a very vicious fight sequence in the woods. This definitely rivals, possibly tops, Wolverine's berserker rage in the mansion from X2. Intertwined with Magneto's rallying cry, this scene is just amazing. Jean wanders off after seeing Wolverine, and he goes after her. And Magneto sneaks up on him. A very nice moment between Wolverine and Magneto. He's taking the role of Cyclops in this sequence, but it works, because Wolverine would do all of this.

I'm actually willing to forgive the speed here, because we don't know where Magneto is. It could be a few miles away, for all we know. It's a great action scene, and it still works that they're using Magneto (although would it KILL them to give Cyclops a really kickass action scene? He could've done this too, but like you say, Wolverine WOULD do this).

34. Mystique Betrays Magneto – Nice cameo by Multiple Man here. "Hell hath no fury" line is kind of goofy. But it's a nice touch having Mystique get back at Magneto, even if it is cliche. I don't see this as Mystique tricking the government. After Magneto abandoned her, why would she help him? Magneto is just that smart. But unfortunately, this scene just isn't all that it promised to be. We see glimpses of this scene in the trailers; the group looking at the monitors, the glance Trask gives the President, all of this promised to be something of very dire consequences. A very hard decision that the President had to face in light of a growing threat. Instead, it turned into whether or not to send armed troops in to gather wanted criminals. BIG letdown.

It doesn't have nearly the weight that it should. It's actually rather light-hearted, which doesn't work. You don't think the government would immediately think Mystique double-crossed them? It could have led to a great character moment for Mystique where she denies it. *ahem* To use my line,

MYSTIQUE: You think I'd help him? You think he even cares about me anymore? (tears up)

That's all we needed. Take Mystique off the damn TV screen and put her in the room with Trask and the President, and give her just one line. It would add SOOOO much.

35. Back at the Mansion – And it begins. The climax to this trilogy is on the horizon. Wolverine informs the X-Men of Magneto's plan. Angel overhears. The X-Men suit up. And Wolverine becomes Scott. What? What happened to the alternate version, the one that keeps Wolverine in character, and gives Iceman, Kitty Pryde, and Colossus a bit more development, by showing them taking a stand for something? Instead, we have Scott Summers played by Wolverine, trying to convince the X-Men to take a stand. There is a nice recollection to Beast's past as part of the X-Men, that's a nice touch. But give me the alternate version of this scene, PLEASE!

I'm glad to see this disgusts someone as much as me. But again, the film is edited around Wolverine. Oh well. The alternate is infinitely better.

36. The Golden Gate Bridge – Ah yes, the money shot. And it is everything it promised to be. The army storms Alcatraz via a relocated Golden Gate Bridge. Talk about sending a message. Quite frankly, I don't care about all of the *****ing and moaning and groaning about this scene. It's a sci-fi film, get over it. The scene is absolutely amazing. It's about more than what's happening, but the fact that Magneto is doing it. And the fact that he's doing it without a moment's hesitation. This is his war. And he'll fight it by any means necessary.

My only "logic" issue with this scene is the timeline. I don't really give a **** how long the Golden Gate Bridge is. That wasn't my first thought when I saw Magneto MOVE THE GODDAMN THING! It's a silly nitpick and it doesn't matter. But this scene is one that delivers on the promise of the excellent trailer.

37. Storming the Island – A good opening to this final battle, as Magneto sends in his pawns (please, spare me the complaints. A good general NEVER sends in his best troops first. He sends in the expendables in the first waves, and then brings in the heavy hitters to finish the job). And Magneto is actually caught off guard; "Plastic, they've learned". A very nice call back to X-Men with Magneto's "You homosapiens and your guns"

And we've seen how Magneto treated Mystique. He doesn't care about these people. I liked the opening.

38. The Grand Entrance – Finally! THIS is the X-Men I've been waiting for! Leaping into battle, theme music blaring, lining up across the battlefield from the army of the Brotherhood. This is the X-Men in ways Singer never could bring us. This is the X-Men the way they are supposed to be. This takes me back to the cartoons and comics in ways the previous movies never could. The nerd in me is having fangasms. Take away Wolverine's Cyclopsesque battle commands of "Hold this line!", and it's the perfect sequence.

I don't even mind the "Hold this line!" though obviously Cyclops should've been giving those orders. But yeah, this scene...if only the rest were this epic.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

39. Alcatraz I – So it begins! X-Men action the way I've been waiting to see it. Wolverine clawing, Beast leaping, Iceman freezing, Colossus punching, Storm... well, she tried to make a wave, but Ratner stopped her before she had a chance. But she gets to fight Callisto! That's a nice comic book nod, even though the movie battle isn't nearly as significant as the battle between Storm and Callisto in the comics. But hey. The Juggernaut & Kitty Pryde chase scene is ****ing awesome. r0xx0rz ur s0xx0rz. The Morlocks going into the labs to get Warren Worthington was kind of a waste, as he just gets tossed over the ledge so Angel can swoop in at the most convenient moment ever and save him. What a waste of a character, really. But I guess we had to see Quill do something with his Quills. Dr. Kavita Rao, you won't be missed.

Since I pretty much agree with you, I'll comment on Firefox 2.0's spell checker. Doesn't like "ur". Has no problem at all with r0xx0rz or s0xx0rz.

40. Alcatraz II – And now the Brotherhood gets pissed. Magneto and Pyro team up in an epic display of powers, turning Alcatraz Island into a true warzone. Cure weapons destroyed, there's nothing left for the military to do. The X-Men have to take cover or else they are toast as well. And then it comes to them; cure the son of a *****! Well, I guess it's a bit cliche`. but eh. We're given a nice showdown between Pyro and Iceman. People complain it wasn't enough, but really, it's not like Iceman and Pyro were TOP BILL characters here... what we got was nice. And we finally get to see Iceman ice up. Freaking yea! Another Fastball Special as Wolverine is launched towards Magneto as a distraction for Beast to leap behind and plunge the cure into Magneto's gut. Well, I guess that was kind of cliche`, but it works.

Here's where it started to fall apart for me. As I'm sitting in the theatre, I'm realizing that it's rushing to the finish. It really moves through this so fast, it never gets the chance to become the epic battle it should have been. I think the Iceman and Pyro fight was WAY too reminiscent of Harry vs. Voldemort to really be that great. There needed to be more. It's called an ice slide? Maybe? At least more than a stupid head butt.

41. Phoenix Rises – Everyone calls the Phoenix vs. Xavier scene the best in the film. I call this. Okay, yes, it should be Cyclops, not Wolverine, but this scene is so well done that I forgot that it wasn't Cyclops, and it's not out of character; Wolverine WOULD do this for Jean. He might not be meant for Jean like Scott is, but he does love her. In the most emotional scene of the film, the most epic scene of the film, and the most visually pleasing scene of the film, we're shown Phoenix unleashed, and literally destroying Alcatraz Island. The beautiful shot of the water rising out of the bay, following by the camera panning around an amazed Wolverine as he witnesses the destruction around him, and turns to see Jean, the cause of it all. It's simply beautiful. His march up to the woman he loves, to stop her. It's simply beautiful. His words; "No, not for them. For you. For you." They are simply beautiful. To top it off, John Powell hit it out of the park with the score. He didn't just hit it out of the park, he hit a walk off grand slam in the bottom of the 9th inning in game 7 of the World Series. John Powell brought his A game, that's for sure, and the score only amplifies the emotion of this scene. Without a doubt, it is my favorite scene of the film, and it's up there for favorite scene of the trilogy. THIS is what this movie was supposed to be. This scene did everything it was supposed to, and then some.

Finally! Enough going through the motions. I have to disagree here. You blink and you miss this. It's so fast, and then it's over. I'm not completely sold on Jean being this huge threat. What's she going to do? She's just standing there? Sure, she's killing everything, except, you know, the hundreds of people she doesn't kill. I'm just not feeling the stakes like I should. I understand it's not like she can just go eat a sun or anything, but there needed to be more (I think it would have worked better if the climax remained in Washington). It's effective, but it's the bare bones of what we could and should have had. I will agree on the score, but I think the Phoenix/Xavier fight is leagues better.

42. Finale – After an amazing climax, the movie slips a bit back into "doing what we shouldn't" mode. The tombstones are insult to injury for deaths that shouldn't have occurred (Scott Summers). Beast going to the U.N. was just out of place, and really cliche`. Rogue getting cured destroyed what could have been a wonderous arc. What was done right; Angel flying free through the San Francisco skies, flying past the rebuilding Golden Gate Bridge, symbolizing the freedom and acceptance of mutants, as the world rebuilds, both physically, and through their relationships with each other. I'm torn on Magneto. For one, I can't stand to see Magneto cured, and that's it. This ending offers hope. But at the same time, it brings controversy to the main plotline; did the cure even work? Was everything that just happened worthless? We all have our theories about what happened, and because the writers wanted it to be obscure, we'll never know for sure. So it's a very mixed reaction type of ending. But hey, at least the music that plays during the credits is awesome!

I agree completely on everything, including the mixed feelings on Magneto. The shock cut brought a smile to my face, so I guess it worked the way it was supposed to. I don't like the end credits suite as presented on the album, but in the film it's pretty good.

 

[Boba_Fett_123]

Final Grade:

Action: A
-The action in this film was far superior to the action in the previous films. Only X2 had comparable action, and only in about 2 or 3 scenes. This film finally gave us a chance to see the X-Men fighting as a team, in a battle!

100% right.

Character / Emotion: B-
-Not where is should have been / could have been, but it was still there when it needed to be. And the circumstances of this film lead to much deeper emotion than the previous 2, which boosts the grade.

More agreement from this camp. When it works, it WORKS. Unfortunately, there are many instances where it doesn't. I'd probably only give a C+ in this category, though my love of Famke, Jimmy, and Ian's performances boost it to a B- in the end.

Pacing: C-
-Pacing gets better as you watch the film more, but it's still pretty bad. People jump around from place to place way too quickly.

Hell yes. An appropriate grade, I think.

Faithfulness: B
-This is hit and miss. What the film did right, it did RIGHT. But what the film did wrong, it did WRONG. There are many instances when this film did everything it was supposed to. And other times when it did absolutely everything it WASN'T supposed to. For the drastic deviations, it's dropped a letter grade. But I can't ignore what was done right.

I'd give it a B-, for the same reasons you stated. Not only did it fail to be faithful to the comics a lot, but it also failed to be faithful to the first two films on several occasions, which is unforgivable. I don't mind deviations from the comics, or else I certainly wouldn't give X2 an A (that thing looks NOTHING like God Loves, Man Kills! even if Jean's death is ripped from X-Men 100). But this is the third film of a trilogy. It can't just go off on its own tangent, and it does do that, several times.

Score: A+
-This is the best score of the trilogy. Behind Lord of the Rings, this is my favorite score ever. It's absolutely amazing.

I give the score an A-. It's Powell's best, but it doesn't get the plus from me because there's not as much development as I'd like. A lot of the music outside of the three motifs is filler, and typical Zimmer-esque filler while we're at it. It's not like John Williams, where even the filler is great. It is the best score of the trilogy, though.

Visual Appeal: A
-The cinematograpy in this film is amazing. Much better than the previous 2 films. This shots in this film are wonderful, whether it's an aerial shot of Alkali Lake, or a special effects shot of the chaos on Alcatraz, the visual appeal this film is amazing.

Dante Spinotti = the real director of TLS. I agree wholeheartedly with this grade.

Writing: C
-There's some good writing here, and there's some really bad writing. The bad writing is made up for by good acting, but it doesn't negate that it's bad writing.

The writing is bad more often than not. And it doesn't count as good writing if McKellen/Stewart/Janssen reading a ****ty line is still AMAZING.

Overall Enjoyment: A- (not an average)
-Simply put, this movie does many things right. It does many things that it was supposed to do, and does them as well as it should have. And a few mistakes can't take that away from me. There are some missed oppourtunities, or false promises. Trailers promised a more involved government, and higher political stakes. Possibly something along the lines of a Sentinel project. Instead, scenes that promised high political stakes, such as Trask's glance at the President, or the lines "Well then, you know what needs to be done" turned out to be sending the military in to catch wanted terrorists. So there were some false promises. But for the most part, this film did exactly what it should have. I refuse to let the mistakes that were made take away from all the other stuff that was done right.

You're a better person than I am for being able to step away from all those errors you noted above and still give this thing an A-. I enjoyed it, so if we're grading my enjoyment, then I'm probably a B+/A-. But as a FILM...B-, at best. I'm willing to agree with you on enjoyment (not an average) however, because I think we saw the trailers, read the spoilers, and ran WAY too far with them. We knew too much before 26 May, and I think that hurt a lot. It's a fun popcorn movie, but it should have been more.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I think it's even more than just a fun popcorn flick.

I truly believe that the emotion of this film is there, much more than people give credit for. I think there are character moments here that definatley rival Singer's character moments.

I totally agree with you that knowing about the movie as much as we did hurt the film.

Things that would have pleased me, I knew about, and I never got to enjoy them the first time around, because I knew what was happening. Being here on these forums, we overanalyzed the trailers, with what could have and should have been. I will agree there are some misleading parts to the trailer; being an X-Men fan, knowing that the black dude is Trask, and seeing the political scenes in the trailer, it heavily implies Sentinels. Nothing even remotley close to that happened, and I felt severely let down.

I dunno, more and more I am beginning to believe that this is my favorite film of the trilogy. With Cyclops dying, Rogue being cured, Wolverine turning into Cyclops, I never thought this one could be my favorite X-Men film. But I can't sit here and deny all of the things that were done right, just because of a few things that were done wrong. Cyclops was killed due to studio demands, that was out of the hands of the writers. It doesn't really ease the pain, but at least the writers didn't **** that one up. Rogue being cured was merely a decision Ratner made to show "choice". Again, doesn't ease the pain, but at least I understand where he's coming from.

A lot of people around here talk about how Ratner could have used many more "Singer" type moments; well to be blunt, while that may be true, I think that Singer could have used a few "Ratner" type moments. And scenes like Mystique lying naked on the floor of the convoy after being cured, or the Jean & Logan exchange in the infirmary, or the Cyclops & Wolverine interaction as Scott is leaving, or Beast in the room with Leech, all of those scenes are just as good as anything that Singer brought.

Kinberg and Penn get a lot of heat for some of the choices they made. Quite frankly, I don't think they get enough credit. Yes, there is some bad writing here. I won't deny it. However, the acting of Stewart, McKellen, Jackman, Grammer, and everyone else, sweeps the bad writing under the rug. It's still there, but at least you can't see it. And because of that, the bad writing doesn't detract from the really really brilliant ideas they had. There are only a few moments when the bad writing actually comes to light, despite the fact that it's Stewart or someone speaking it.

I find it hard to give Ratner credit, or blame. Other than moving the climax to San Francisco instead of Washington, and choosing to have Rogue be cured, what exactly is it that he did? What exactly did he add to the film? I'm still wondering about that. So he paced some things a bit fast... some of that is in the writing also. Afterall, it'd be the script that would have Beast in one scene in Washington, and in New York the next scene.

And the above stated changes, how exactly did that impact the plot? I'm sure a Washington D.C. climax would have been essentially the same as what we got. Just a different back drop (without the beautiful visual of the water rising out of San Francisco Bay). And Rogue, sure, it's a slap to the fact of her character, and her fans, but it's not like her not being cured would have changed the plot. She wouldn't have been there fighting with the X-Men in the final battle. So I'm still wondering exactly where Ratner's influence lies, and it's hard to assign blame or credit to him.

About your mention of the trailer scenes being line spliced, I disagree. Listen to the words that are said; the same words are said differently. In the trailer, Magneto says "Who will you stand with" in a very soft, subtle tone, one that in my opinion, speaks louder than Magneto's BOOMING "WHO WILL YOU STAND WITH!" in the movie. The 7 minute preview actually has the version of this scene from the trailer. Same goes for the infirmary scene. In the trailer, Wolverine says "We can help you. We can fix it. We can make it like it was. STAY WITH ME!" in a much different tone than he says "Jean, stay with me. Stay focused. We can help. We can fix it, the Professor can fix it." It's totally different lines, in a totally different tone of voice. I don't think it's just splicing, I think it's actual different versions of the scenes, versions that were much better than what we got.

 

[Halcohol]

^That's probably the most annoying aspect of the entire movie, Nell. We know for a fact there are/were deleted or alternate takes of scenes that worked much better than their counterparts in the theatrical version. The movie we ALMOST got would've been superior to the movie we did get, and there's really nothing we can do about it