X-Men TV Show Comment was Foreshadowing

[sdc10]

Marvel already has the Skrulls though. Whedon and Feige both said it during the promotion of the Avengers while explaining why they chose to use the Chitauri instead.

Not to say there isn't value there - aside from the titular characters (which thanks to Fox at the moment are completely worthless) - the FF franchise would bring to Marvel: Galactus and his heralds (including Silver Surfer), Uatu the Watcher, Rama-Tut/Kang the Conqueror/Immortus/Nathaniel Richards, and last but certainly not least Dr. Doom.

As a fan, sure I want those all to be a part of the MCU but thinking from a business perspective how much is that worth exactly? I have no idea but I don't think it's worth as much as Fox will want.

Well after Infinity War Marvel will need new major villains besides Thanos, Galactus would fit the bill nicely

 

[Hero_of_Time98]

The purchase of Lucasfilm by the Walt Disney Company probably didn't help things either.

You hit the nail on the head hard, my friend. 20th Century Fox lost Star Wars when George Lucas sold Lucasfilm to Disney. How much you wanna bet that Fox execs were very, very angry to hear that Star Wars went to Disney instead of them. Yes, Fox didn't actually have the production rights, as all the films were financed by Lucas himself. Fox currently has the distribution rights to the films until 2020, with the exception of A New Hope, which it owns forever. (And will never give up, no doubt!) Fox lost a big franchise when Star Wars left and going to Disney, one of it's biggest rivals, had to make quite a bit of enemies at Fox for Disney.

With that in mind, I never really expected Fox to ever work with Disney in any shape or form. Fox can't be too happy that they don't have the merchandising rights to their Marvel film properties, either and Disney does. So their is two things there that Disney has that Fox doesn't and will never have. That right there may be enough for Fox to just absolutely refuse to give up the rights, no matter how badly they have had trouble of making them work.

However, the news of the X-Men TV show rights belonging to Marvel instead of Fox does indeed give Marvel the leverage. Fox wants to do a X-Men TV show and as others have pointed out, it's not just the ad revenue you get from being on network TV but also the money you could potentially get from streaming giants Netflix and Hulu. An X-Men live action TV show would only strengthen the brand and could allow Fox to create a shared mutant universe that goes to the big screen and back to the small screen, similar to what Marvel does with the MCU movies and their TV shows. It's just worth a lot of money and while they are not bleeding financially like Sony was, Fox execs I hope aren't too childish and naive to think that they have a better chance at success holding onto the FF rights than to try to get X-Men on TV. Marvel isn't going to hand over the TV rights for nothing. Getting the FF back, along with all the associated characters, is all that Marvel probably wants. No money has to be exchanged, just the rights. And if Fox wants to refuse like they did when Marvel offered them a chance to get an extension on the Daredevil rights, then they can refuse and Fox won't be allowed to ever make a X-Men TV Show.

The ball is totally in Marvel's court but I don't think it will happen until the FF remake is out of the theaters. Once it's done, I expect some kind of talks to occur and I just hope Marvel is going to offer the trade because it just makes sense on both sides. I just hope Fox can put aside their differences with Disney and make it happen.

 

[sleekstereo]

You hit the nail on the head hard, my friend. 20th Century Fox lost Star Wars when George Lucas sold Lucasfilm to Disney. How much you wanna bet that Fox execs were very, very angry to hear that Star Wars went to Disney instead of them. Yes, Fox didn't actually have the production rights, as all the films were financed by Lucas himself. Fox currently has the distribution rights to the films until 2020, with the exception of A New Hope, which it owns forever. (And will never give up, no doubt!) Fox lost a big franchise when Star Wars left and going to Disney, one of it's biggest rivals, had to make quite a bit of enemies at Fox for Disney.

With that in mind, I never really expected Fox to ever work with Disney in any shape or form. Fox can't be too happy that they don't have the merchandising rights to their Marvel film properties, either and Disney does. So their is two things there that Disney has that Fox doesn't and will never have. That right there may be enough for Fox to just absolutely refuse to give up the rights, no matter how badly they have had trouble of making them work.

However, the news of the X-Men TV show rights belonging to Marvel instead of Fox does indeed give Marvel the leverage. Fox wants to do a X-Men TV show and as others have pointed out, it's not just the ad revenue you get from being on network TV but also the money you could potentially get from streaming giants Netflix and Hulu. An X-Men live action TV show would only strengthen the brand and could allow Fox to create a shared mutant universe that goes to the big screen and back to the small screen, similar to what Marvel does with the MCU movies and their TV shows. It's just worth a lot of money and while they are not bleeding financially like Sony was, Fox execs I hope aren't too childish and naive to think that they have a better chance at success holding onto the FF rights than to try to get X-Men on TV. Marvel isn't going to hand over the TV rights for nothing. Getting the FF back, along with all the associated characters, is all that Marvel probably wants. No money has to be exchanged, just the rights. And if Fox wants to refuse like they did when Marvel offered them a chance to get an extension on the Daredevil rights, then they can refuse and Fox won't be allowed to ever make a X-Men TV Show.

The ball is totally in Marvel's court but I don't think it will happen until the FF remake is out of the theaters. Once it's done, I expect some kind of talks to occur and I just hope Marvel is going to offer the trade because it just makes sense on both sides. I just hope Fox can put aside their differences with Disney and make it happen.

You hit the nail on the head. The Fox/Marvel relationship is pretty much broken. I was listening to Collider Heroes today, and the question came up if Fox will give back the FF to Marvel. And Umberto Gonzalez and Jon Schnepp both said "no." They said the relationship between Fox and Marvel is so bad. The relationship between Feige and Fox is also not good because of stuff a few years back (my guess involving earlier X-Men films). Although, they said that Feige is probably the only person who can rebuild that relationship because he is a good negotiator.

 

[InJustice]

Marvel does not have all the leverage here.

How does Marvel not have all the leverage here? If we assume a negotiation is taking place, From an audience standpoint Fox is negotiating from a position of weakness with a FF property that they themselves tarnished. Moreover, from a financial standpoint, Fox stands to lose $60 million dollars on the film, with nothing to suggest that they can transform this into a moneymaker (especially when you factor in that outside of the first Story film, two of the films performed miserably in the box office). Marvel's going to say, "why should I have to offer you shiny new assets for a property that is damaged and has no money potential?" Fox has no strength that they can play on with this negotiation.

Because Fox has already demonstrated that they are prepared to hold onto the rights like grim death.

Do you think that's a realistic scenario? Pressure from shareholders and investors is going to force them to explain why Fox should keep the IP rights when it has proven to perform terribly. On top of that, shareholders and investors are going to be very reluctant to spend any more money on the FF as they haven't gotten good returns on their money, and with this movie, they've lost a good chunk of change. A sequel is definitely out of the question considering that the actors and actresses involved appeared to have a miserable time, and the movie itself is viewed upon so terribly amongst audiences that it's a waste of time and money to revisit it. So that leaves a remake as a possible option, but do you really think shareholders want to spend money on a remake of a property that doesn't exactly suggest that it has money-making potential? That being said, it seems like Fox has more of a soul-searching journey to do, and less likely to hold onto the Fantastic Four property onto its cold dead hands.

 

[Val_Zod]

You hit the nail on the head. The Fox/Marvel relationship is pretty much broken. I was listening to Collider Heroes today, and the question came up if Fox will give back the FF to Marvel. And Umberto Gonzalez and Jon Schnepp both said "no." They said the relationship between Fox and Marvel is so bad. The relationship between Feige and Fox is also not good because of stuff a few years back (my guess involving earlier X-Men films). Although, they said that Feige is probably the only person who can rebuild that relationship because he is a good negotiator.

Money > Personal vendettas

Fox wanted to keep the rights because they thought they could make some money off of this. That was not the case, and they are going to see a massive loss.

Second, don't take anything Elmayimbe says seriously. Schnepp, while a decent guy, did not hate the movie as much as others, and is failing to recognize the reality of the situation. The FF is losing Fox money.

Thirdly, Fox wants a TV show about the Xmen. They can only greenlit it with Marvel's consent, but Marvel will not play ball unless they get something of value in return. Fox could refuse, reboot on a franchise that most likely will lose them more money, sit on the rights for 7 years thus Marvel gets them back for free with no TV show in return, or accept the deal of exchanging the FF for the Xmen TV rights.

Business wise, it does not benefit Fox to hold onto the FF rights, and no shareholder will allow them to turn down that offer. The FF will come back to Marvel. Mark my words.

 

[Zarex]

Money > Personal vendettas

Fox wanted to keep the rights because they thought they could make some money off of this. That was not the case, and they are going to see a massive loss.

Second, don't take anything Elmayimbe says seriously. Schnepp, while a decent guy, did not hate the movie as much as others, and is failing to recognize the reality of the situation. The FF is losing Fox money.

Thirdly, Fox wants a TV show about the Xmen. They can only greenlit it with Marvel's consent, but Marvel will not play ball unless they get something of value in return. Fox could refuse, reboot on a franchise that most likely will lose them more money, sit on the rights for 7 years thus Marvel gets them back for free with no TV show in return, or accept the deal of exchanging the FF for the Xmen TV rights.

Business wise, it does not benefit Fox to hold onto the FF rights, and no shareholder will allow them to turn down that offer. The FF will come back to Marvel. Mark my words.

I can't imagine FOX negotiators having the stones to beg Marvel for extremely valuable TV rights while insisting they be allowed to continue their devaluation of the FF character family. Why would Marvel even take that meeting? It makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I can't imagine FOX negotiators having the stones to beg Marvel for extremely valuable TV rights while insisting they be allowed to continue their devaluation of the FF character family. Why would Marvel even take that meeting? It makes absolutely no sense.

Boy would I like to be a fly on the wall during those negotiations.

But yeah agree totally. My feeling is the FF are going home. Or there will be no X-Men TV show. Period.

Seems like a no-brainer honestly.

Otherwise there's nothing in it for Marvel. Just wait things out and see what happens. They have things planned out for the next 7 years anyway. Fox runs your famous characters into the ground and they get to be rewarded for that? The license to which that they bought for a pittance? You're going to give them money when eventually you'll get the rights back for free?

As a fan yes of course I want the rights to come home but from a business perspective it seems Marvel would be right to play hardball here. I kind of think they went too easy on Sony. Time will tell if that was a good decision.

The more the toxic fallout from this abortion settles, the more I'm thinking Marvel should let Fox sleep in the bed they made.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

One thing we need to keep in mind is the actual quote that started all this:

“We’re in negotiations with Marvel,” Walden said. “We’re hopeful that we’ll be able to announce something soon. We’re not closed on a deal yet but it’s something we’re definitely pursuing.”

So the idea that 'the relationship is too toxic for them to work together' is either outdated or Ms. Walden was lying (to no logical, presumed end), so I tend to believe the former.

And if we assume she is telling the truth and they are talking, a straight up trade of complete FF rights for X-Men TV rights would make sense for both sides and seem to be the only logical reason Marvel would even consider talking. So I remain confident that will happen.

Of course in any negotiation, both sides will try to get as much as they can, so Fox is probably asking for additional things that Marvel isn't willing to give them and Marvel is asking for additional things that Fox isn't willing to give them. But ultimately a lot of those details are just noise and posturing and this deal makes too much sense for me to imagine anybody walking away from the table until it's done.

It's not crazy to believe that a deal is already done. Ms. Walden didn't simply say they were talking, but specifically said: "We’re hopeful that we’ll be able to announce something soon." and I doubt she would have volunteered that detail unless the negotiations were farther along than many of us are willing to believe.

 

[sleekstereo]

One thing we need to keep in mind is the actual quote that started all this:

“We’re in negotiations with Marvel,” Walden said. “We’re hopeful that we’ll be able to announce something soon. We’re not closed on a deal yet but it’s something we’re definitely pursuing.”

So the idea that 'the relationship is too toxic for them to work together' is either outdated or Ms. Walden was lying (to no logical, presumed end), so I tend to believe the former.

The bad blood is not between Fox Television and Marvel, it is between Fox Films and Marvel. Fox Television and Fox Films are virtually two different companies under a larger organization.

 

[Hero_of_Time98]

The bad blood is not between Fox Television and Marvel, it is between Fox Films and Marvel. Fox Television and Fox Films are virtually two different companies under a larger organization.

True but Marvel is smart and is not going to just give Fox the TV rights to the X-Men without finding something of value to get in return. I'm sure Jeph Loeb talks with Kevin Feige a lot and I'm sure it's been discussed between the two that Fox has the FF rights that Marvel wants to add into it's catalog. At the same time, I'm sure the Fox equivalents to Loeb and Feige also talk all the time about how they want to get the X-Men TV rights which in turn will only help strengthen the film franchise. I just hope egos and vendettas can be put aside because from a business standpoint, a trade will be the best for both studios.

 

[Eddie]

Just because one thing is film and one thing is television doesn't mean a trade can't happen. Disney themselves has been involved in a far more unusual trade. They once traded a sportscaster for a cartoon character. Seriously, NBC got notable sportscaster Al Michaels in exchange for the Oswald the Lucky Rabbit IP.

 

[hippie_hunter]

How does Marvel not have all the leverage here? If we assume a negotiation is taking place, From an audience standpoint Fox is negotiating from a position of weakness with a FF property that they themselves tarnished. Moreover, from a financial standpoint, Fox stands to lose $60 million dollars on the film, with nothing to suggest that they can transform this into a moneymaker (especially when you factor in that outside of the first Story film, two of the films performed miserably in the box office). Marvel's going to say, "why should I have to offer you shiny new assets for a property that is damaged and has no money potential?" Fox has no strength that they can play on with this negotiation.

Marvel does not have all the leverage because 20th Century Fox is not in the same position that Sony Pictures was in. With Sony Pictures, Spider-Man was essentially the only viable franchise for Sony and they totally botched it up and they had the loads of bad press regarding the e-mail hacks.

Even though this particular iteration of Fantastic Four was a bomb, 20th Century Fox still has other IPs they can lean on (X-Men, Planet of the Apes, Ice Age, Alien/Predator/Prometheus, etc.) and they can find new ways to use the Fantastic Four like introduce a new version in an upcoming X-Men movie or just simply make another one. Unlike Sony Pictures, which could not afford further tarnishing the Spider-Man brand, 20th Century Fox can afford to make another dud of a Fantastic Four film.

Also, look at the position that Marvel Studios is in. Is there really any room for Fantastic Four with their film slate? They're busy focusing on their established franchises on top of starting new ones like Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, a new Spider-Man, etc. Also, Marvel Studios wants Fantastic Four, but they don't need it.

And finally, 20th Century Fox doesn't need an X-Men television series. They want it, but they don't need it. Their television production arm is rather lucrative thanks to Modern Family, American Horror Story, the Simpsons, Family Guy, X-Files, etc.

While Marvel is in a good negotiating position, it really has nothing to do with the failure of Fantastic Four, and if they're too demanding in return for giving up the X-Men TV rights, 20th Century Fox can just walk away and not care.

Do you think that's a realistic scenario? Pressure from shareholders and investors is going to force them to explain why Fox should keep the IP rights when it has proven to perform terribly. On top of that, shareholders and investors are going to be very reluctant to spend any more money on the FF as they haven't gotten good returns on their money, and with this movie, they've lost a good chunk of change. A sequel is definitely out of the question considering that the actors and actresses involved appeared to have a miserable time, and the movie itself is viewed upon so terribly amongst audiences that it's a waste of time and money to revisit it. So that leaves a remake as a possible option, but do you really think shareholders want to spend money on a remake of a property that doesn't exactly suggest that it has money-making potential? That being said, it seems like Fox has more of a soul-searching journey to do, and less likely to hold onto the Fantastic Four property onto its cold dead hands.

Shareholders and investors aren't the ones who greenlight films. While I certainly agree that we aren't getting a sequel to Trank's Fantastic Four for the obvious reasons, but Fantastic Four is still an IP with potential. And imagine how angry shareholders and investors would be if 20th Century Fox gave up the rights to Disney/Marvel only for them to make an extremely successful Fantastic Four film.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love an MCU Fantastic Four film and if the Fantastic Four rights are a part of a swap involving the X-Men TV rights, I would be ecstatic. But I think that the discussions are going to be more focused on the financials and technical details of the X-Men TV series (advertising, digital and home video distribution, the channel it will air on, etc.) as opposed to any rights reversions back to Marvel. And if there are any rights swaps, I think it'll be the swapping of rights that are useless to Marvel Entertainment and 20th Century Fox. Merchandising rights are useless to 20th Century Fox the same way the TV rights are useless to Marvel. Character rights to more cosmic based characters like the Shi'ar and Skrulls are useless to 20th Century Fox based on the direction they have taken with the X-Men IP while they can be used far more usefully in Marvel IPs like Guardians of the Galaxy and Captain Marvel.

For me, it's really about not getting my hopes up. I have no desire to be disappointed in the likely event that the rights do not revert in these negotiations. Any TV deal I'm expecting these aspects:

1. Marvel Entertainment gets a cut of the revenues from advertising and home video/digital distribution.

2. The X-Men television show will air on either ABC or FOX.

3. Marvel Entertainment gets 100% of merchandising rights from X-Men and Fantastic Four, the same way they got the Spider-Man merchandising rights back from Sony Pictures in return for giving up their cut of the box office. The Walt Disney Company's forte is in merchandising, and the biggest reason why we don't see X-Men or Fantastic Four toys anymore when the movies are coming out is not because the movie is being made by a competitor, but because they would have to share it with 20th Century Fox. Notice how Disney did not care about selling Amazing Spider-Man 2 toys when they had 100% of the merchandising rights to it (even though Marvel Studios hated that movie). And 20th Century Fox will probably be very willing to give those rights up because the Walt Disney Company has made the merchandising rights useless for them.

Other things I see as more likely than them giving up the Fantastic Four rights, not expecting, but see as more likely:

4. Marvel Entertainment either gives up their cut in the X-Men movies in return for something or renegotiates to have a slightly higher percentage of the X-Men box office.

5. A reversion of rights to minor characters that 20th Century Fox does not need but Marvel Studios can use quite effectively. Think more along the lines of Galactus, Silver Surfer, and other characters I have previously mentioned.

6. An X-Men TV series would be a co-production between 20th Century Fox Television and ABC Studios.

EDIT: 7. 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment gives up home video and theatrical distribution rights to the Star Wars films and television projects they have distribution rights early to the Walt Disney Company's subsidiaries.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The bad blood is not between Fox Television and Marvel, it is between Fox Films and Marvel. Fox Television and Fox Films are virtually two different companies under a larger organization.

20th Century Fox Television is a subsidiary of 20th Century Fox, while the Fox Broadcasting Group is part of 21st Century Fox and not a part of 20th Century Fox, the studio that would be producing the X-Men TV series is a part of the film division that has bad blood with Marvel Entertainment.

 

[henzINNIT]

There is no real "bad blood" in a business this size. There are already negotiations happening between the studios.

I hope the rights revert but I wouldn't bet on it. Fox have killed Fantastic Four for a few years. It's not the end of the world for the studio. They have the collateral to bench them until they are ready to take another shot at it. The performance of the 3rd incarnation of Spider-Man will be interesting to see.

 

[VictorDomashev]

Even though this particular iteration of Fantastic Four was a bomb, 20th Century Fox still has other IPs they can lean on (X-Men, Planet of the Apes, Ice Age, Alien/Predator/Prometheus, etc.) and they can find new ways to use the Fantastic Four like introduce a new version in an upcoming X-Men movie

It is still not a sure thing if Fox can Crossover or not without MARVELs approval

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Fox have killed Fantastic Four for a few years. It's not the end of the world for the studio. They have the collateral to bench them until they are ready to take another shot at it.

If it was just a matter of Fox being able to afford to wait it out a few years, sure, there's no real pressure on them.

But if you think about this film, both the studio and fans seemed skeptical after two previous weak efforts. Fox took every opportunity they could to distance themselves from the Story films, and while the fan-base was enthusiastic and excited in 2004, in 2014, they were skeptical and not shy about plastering that skepticism all over the internet.

With that history in mind and this latest film a much more dramatic failure and the mood of the fans much worse than it was 7 years ago, I can't imagine any scenario in which Fox risks the investment required to make another FF film in the next 7 years. I also can't imagine them seeing this property as valuable enough to put much effort into keeping it.

So while there might not be pressure on them, they know they won't be making any more FF films and if they don't at least get something now, they'll simply turn the rights back over for free in 7 years.

It's so completely inconceivable that Fox will make a fourth film after all this that the rights have their maximum value now. Marvel would be willing to pay a little to have things locked down now, have some certainty and be able to start working the characters into their long-term plans, but with each passing year, we just get closer to the inevitable time that Fox will hand them over for nothing.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Even though this particular iteration of Fantastic Four was a bomb, 20th Century Fox still has other IPs they can lean on (X-Men, Planet of the Apes, Ice Age, Alien/Predator/Prometheus, etc.) and they can find new ways to use the Fantastic Four like introduce a new version in an upcoming X-Men movie or just simply make another one. Unlike Sony Pictures, which could not afford further tarnishing the Spider-Man brand, 20th Century Fox can afford to make another dud of a Fantastic Four film.

I'm sure that if they could keep the rights that way without actually making an actual Fantastic Four film (or Silver Surfer spinoff) they would have done it with Daredevil. Stick Elektra in The Wolverine and they've got Daredevil for another 7 years. But they didn't do that and now Marvel has the rights back. I can't imagine a supporting role in another IP would reset the rights clock.

Other than that, I don't have a lot of arguments with what you have said. Ultimately, my personal prediction is that no deal gets done. Fox will sit on this property for another 7 years and then either make another reboot or the project will fall apart and they won't and it will revert back to Marvel like Daredevil. I think there is too much bad blood and bad feelings on both sides, and Marvel doesn't really need this property. They would like it, and fans are certainly demanding it, but they don't need it and if the price is too high they will walk. Fox, as you say, isn't as desperate as Sony and don't need to make a deal either. They probably SHOULD, but they can afford to take a bath on Fantastic Four if they find more value in keeping it from Marvel than what Marvel is offering them in return.

But if I'm wrong and a deal does get done, all the better for the fans.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm sure that if they could keep the rights that way without actually making an actual Fantastic Four film (or Silver Surfer spinoff) they would have done it with Daredevil. Stick Elektra in The Wolverine and they've got Daredevil for another 7 years. But they didn't do that and now Marvel has the rights back. I can't imagine a supporting role in another IP would reset the rights clock.

To be fair, 20th Century Fox did want to make another Daredevil film, they had a director and story pitch and everything was pretty much set to go, but they just didn't have enough time and Marvel wouldn't extend the rights for them without a trade off.

Other than that, I don't have a lot of arguments with what you have said. Ultimately, my personal prediction is that no deal gets done. Fox will sit on this property for another 7 years and then either make another reboot or the project will fall apart and they won't and it will revert back to Marvel like Daredevil. I think there is too much bad blood and bad feelings on both sides, and Marvel doesn't really need this property. They would like it, and fans are certainly demanding it, but they don't need it and if the price is too high they will walk. Fox, as you say, isn't as desperate as Sony and don't need to make a deal either. They probably SHOULD, but they can afford to take a bath on Fantastic Four if they find more value in keeping it from Marvel than what Marvel is offering them in return.

But if I'm wrong and a deal does get done, all the better for the fans.

I would not be surprised to see if a deal falls apart. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, there is just too much bad blood between the Walt Disney Company/Marvel Entertainment and 20th Century Fox. They'll cooperate where necessary like in regards to Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope and the X-Men films, but that's about it.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

To be fair, 20th Century Fox did want to make another Daredevil film, they had a director and story pitch and everything was pretty much set to go, but they just didn't have enough time and Marvel wouldn't extend the rights for them without a trade off.

I mean specifically with regards of having them appear in another film, in this case The Wolverine, and keeping the rights that way. The Wolverine started filming before they lost the Daredevil rights.

That they didn't do that strongly suggests it wouldn't work. If Fox wants to keep the Fantastic Four, they would have to make an actual Fantastic Four movie. They can't just stick them in an X-Men movie in 7 years.

Unless you meant introduce them in an X-Men film and then still make a separate Fantastic Four standalone before the revision date is up.

 

[Shikamaru]

Supposedly their contract prevents their IP's from crossing over in each other's films, so I doubt Fox can just stick the FF in an X-Men film and reset the clock. They would need to work out another contract with Marvel in order to do so.

Also, while the FF brand itself is tarnished, Marvel has two major advantages to the rights reverting. First, the FF brand has a lot of villains they could use, particularly Doom and Galactus. Then there's Kang who is normally an Avengers villain but somehow got attached to the FF IP. Keep in mind Marvel is also experiencing villain problems which will only get more noticeable with each film. Second, we know Marvel wants a Silver Surfer franchise. That combined with the potential of setting up Galactus for another event film could be very beneficial for them.

 

[Dr Tactics]

Supposedly their contract prevents their IP's from crossing over in each other's films, so I doubt Fox can just stick the FF in an X-Men film and reset the clock. They would need to work out another contract with Marvel in order to do so.

Also, while the FF brand itself is tarnished, Marvel has two major advantages to the rights reverting. First, the FF brand has a lot of villains they could use, particularly Doom and Galactus. Then there's Kang who is normally an Avengers villain but somehow got attached to the FF IP. Keep in mind Marvel is also experiencing villain problems which will only get more noticeable with each film. Second, we know Marvel wants a Silver Surfer franchise. That combined with the potential of setting up Galactus for another event film could be very beneficial for them.

Or doesn't address the crossover permission in which Fox can't just assume they can do it and a lawsuit could be brought to Fox by Marvel if they do..

Its more complicated because it may be a Grey area that wouldn't be addressed unless Fox attempted to do so.. I hope they do.. I'd get my POPCORN READY for a long courtroom drama to watch FOX LOSE!!

Edit: Hopefully...

 

[Zarex]

Marvel does not have all the leverage because 20th Century Fox is not in the same position that Sony Pictures was in. With Sony Pictures, Spider-Man was essentially the only viable franchise for Sony and they totally botched it up and they had the loads of bad press regarding the e-mail hacks.

Even though this particular iteration of Fantastic Four was a bomb, 20th Century Fox still has other IPs they can lean on (X-Men, Planet of the Apes, Ice Age, Alien/Predator/Prometheus, etc.) and they can find new ways to use the Fantastic Four like introduce a new version in an upcoming X-Men movie or just simply make another one. Unlike Sony Pictures, which could not afford further tarnishing the Spider-Man brand, 20th Century Fox can afford to make another dud of a Fantastic Four film.

I'm of the impression that FOX can't combine their two distinct Marvel IPs into one mega-contract without Marvel's ok. And the fact that FFINO is devoid of any X-Men content, not even a harmless Easter Egg, gives further credence to this belief. But so long as they hold the licensing agreement I am certain that FOX will keep teasing it.

And FOX can certainly afford to make another dud of a Fantastic Four film. Just as Disney could have spent hundreds of millions on follow-ups to Prince of Persia, John Carter and The Lone Ranger. But why the heck would they?

And finally, 20th Century Fox doesn't need an X-Men television series. They want it, but they don't need it. Their television production arm is rather lucrative thanks to Modern Family, American Horror Story, the Simpsons, Family Guy, X-Files, etc.

While Marvel is in a good negotiating position, it really has nothing to do with the failure of Fantastic Four, and if they're too demanding in return for giving up the X-Men TV rights, 20th Century Fox can just walk away and not care.

The idea that FOX is going to continue to play keep away with the FF rights hinges in part on the idea that the studio is "meh" regarding the idea of an X-Men tie in program. If so, why would multiple senior FOX executives confirm that the program is "something we're definitely pursuing" and "We're hopeful we'll be able to announce something soon"? If they could just walk away and not care, why would they make any announcements?

My two cents? They do care. They care a lot. FOX just watched WB walk away with a cool $40 million in streaming fees for a (sorta) superhero program airing on their network. They see WB and Marvel dominating a very lucrative market, and they want their slice of the pie. FOX knows that an X-Men tie in show will effectively serve as advertising for their X-Men connected cinematic universe. A film series that, unlike the MCU and the DCEU, can't rely on video games or merchandise sales for promotion.

Shareholders and investors aren't the ones who greenlight films. While I certainly agree that we aren't getting a sequel to Trank's Fantastic Four for the obvious reasons, but Fantastic Four is still an IP with potential. And imagine how angry shareholders and investors would be if 20th Century Fox gave up the rights to Disney/Marvel only for them to make an extremely successful Fantastic Four film.

If the X-Men tie in program brings in $2 million an episode from a streaming service the shareholders will be more concerned with that then what Disney/Marvel managed to end up doing with an IP that had no value to FOX.

For me, it's really about not getting my hopes up. I have no desire to be disappointed in the likely event that the rights do not revert in these negotiations. Any TV deal I'm expecting these aspects:

1. Marvel Entertainment gets a cut of the revenues from advertising and home video/digital distribution.

At the present time the only company that can put a Marvel branded program on the air is Marvel. In this scenario they are giving up exclusivity and increasing on-air competition in an already crowded marketplace in exchange for a minority stake in a program. When they could just put a "Young Avengers" or "Runaways" show on ABC, CBS or NBC and keep it all. FOX is making out much better than Disney/Marvel in this deal.

2. The X-Men television show will air on either ABC or FOX.

This has already been confirmed. It will be FOX.

3. Marvel Entertainment gets 100% of merchandising rights from X-Men and Fantastic Four, the same way they got the Spider-Man merchandising rights back from Sony Pictures in return for giving up their cut of the box office. The Walt Disney Company's forte is in merchandising, and the biggest reason why we don't see X-Men or Fantastic Four toys anymore when the movies are coming out is not because the movie is being made by a competitor, but because they would have to share it with 20th Century Fox. Notice how Disney did not care about selling Amazing Spider-Man 2 toys when they had 100% of the merchandising rights to it (even though Marvel Studios hated that movie). And 20th Century Fox will probably be very willing to give those rights up because the Walt Disney Company has made the merchandising rights useless for them.

All of Spider-Man merchandising rights were owned by the Spider-Man Merchandising LP, which was co-owned by Marvel (75%) and Sony (25%). Any merchandising licensing fees were managed by this parnership, regardless whether they were from the comics or the films. Marvel bought out Sony's share in 2011 prior to the release of TASM.

Prior to the buyout, Marvel didn't have the option of putting out comic tie-in product for Spidey and retaining all of the licensing fees. They do with the X-Men and FF, whose deals are only for film tie-ins. So FOX's tie-in % has virtually zero value because a)The X-Men and FF don't have anywhere near Spidey's licensing appeal, b) Marvel can already put all the X-Men and FF merchandise they want into stores without paying FOX a dime and c) Marvel is concentrating their efforts on MCU characters.
FOX could hand these rights over tomorrow and we still wouldn't see kid Cyclops or Ivan Ooze figures on the shelves.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Unless you meant introduce them in an X-Men film and then still make a separate Fantastic Four standalone before the revision date is up.

That is what I mean.

 

[VictorDomashev]

That is what I mean.

The question is can they legally do it without permission

 

[hippie_hunter]

The question is can they legally do it without permission

From the way 20th Century Fox was promoting Fantastic Four and the rumors that were abound with an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover, it seems like they can. And I don't see why they can't. The film rights belong to them, they can use them in any fashion they wish.