X-Men TV Show Comment was Foreshadowing

[VictorDomashev]

From the way 20th Century Fox was promoting Fantastic Four and the rumors that were abound with an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover, it seems like they can. And I don't see why they can't. The film rights belong to them, they can use them in any fashion they wish.

If they can why havent they ? The jury is still out on this if you ask me & even if they could. As we have seen in the past. Making Elektra & a Ben Affleck cameo in Elektra did not extend the rights & before you say anything. Daredevil & Elektra were mostly likely part of the same contract. While the X-Men & Fantastic Four are two separate contracts most likely

 

[wobbly]

From the way 20th Century Fox was promoting Fantastic Four and the rumors that were abound with an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover, it seems like they can. And I don't see why they can't. The film rights belong to them, they can use them in any fashion they wish.

Say you are a landlord, and lease out 2 adjoining properties to the same person, with different rents and different terms etc, can they legally just knock down the walls to combine them without any permission from the landlord? Nope.

The film rights are held by Fox. Not owned by them. And those who have talked about crossovers in the last few years have back tracked not long after. Millar first, then Kinberg. Singer will probably be next if pushed on the matter.

 

[Eddie]

Kinberg flat out said that they could do an X-Men television show, and we now know that was nonsense. Marvel has to approve it. While I don't think we have enough to definitely say what can crossover and what can't, it is worth noting that Zak Penn, one of the people that's actually worked with both Marvel and Fox, said that Fox can't do such a crossover years ago. Apparently he'd wanted to cross the franchises over years ago.

 

[Zarex]

From the way 20th Century Fox was promoting Fantastic Four and the rumors that were abound with an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover, it seems like they can. And I don't see why they can't. The film rights belong to them, they can use them in any fashion they wish.

Simon Kinberg, Mark Millar, Brian Singer and Hutch Parker have all teased a crossover, but they've held both properties for over 15 years and we have yet to see it in a film. By this time they should just get off the pot.

And while 20th Century holds licensing agreements for both the X-Men and the FF, it's quite unlikely that these contract, signed back in the 1990s, contain crossover language. And if they don't, FOX and Marvel need to agree to an contract adendum that will contain payment terms.

To say that FOX can do whatever they want with the Marvel characters under their cinematic control may be a bit of a reach. Unless crossover terms were explicitly detailed in the contracts, a studio holding the rights to two separate Stephen King novels wouldn't be able to greenlight "Cujo vs Christine".

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm of the impression that FOX can't combine their two distinct Marvel IPs into one mega-contract without Marvel's ok.

So that's why Fox was acting like they were planning on eventually crossing them over. And why they hired Mark Millar to work on bringing them together. And why they publish promotional articles acting as if the actors are all part of the same universe. It's their film rights, they can make any movie they want with them.

Or how Bryan Singer flat out said that if X-Men: Apocalypse and Fantastic Four did well, they would be crossing them over.

And the fact that FFINO is devoid of any X-Men content, not even a harmless Easter Egg, gives further credence to this belief. But so long as they hold the licensing agreement I am certain that FOX will keep teasing it.

Tim Story's Fantastic Four had a cut scene that was an X-Men Easter egg. But you also have to take into account that 20th Century Fox really didn't have much faith in this movie. If Fantastic Four wasn't going to do well, they didn't want it ruining their revitalized X-Men franchise.

And FOX can certainly afford to make another dud of a Fantastic Four film. Just as Disney could have spent hundreds of millions on follow-ups to Prince of Persia, John Carter and The Lone Ranger. But why the heck would they?

A huge reason why Disney didn't pursue those films is because in the end, those films just didn't fit with Disney and it was baffling as to why they were even made to begin with. If there is one company that doesn't need to develop licensed IP properties, it's Disney because they're the gold mine of IPs.

The idea that FOX is going to continue to play keep away with the FF rights hinges in part on the idea that the studio is "meh" regarding the idea of an X-Men tie in program. If so, why would multiple senior FOX executives confirm that the program is "something we're definitely pursuing" and "We're hopeful we'll be able to announce something soon"? If they could just walk away and not care, why would they make any announcements?

My two cents? They do care. They care a lot. FOX just watched WB walk away with a cool $40 million in streaming fees for a (sorta) superhero program airing on their network. They see WB and Marvel dominating a very lucrative market, and they want their slice of the pie. FOX knows that an X-Men tie in show will effectively serve as advertising for their X-Men connected cinematic universe. A film series that, unlike the MCU and the DCEU, can't rely on video games or merchandise sales for promotion.

Oh without a doubt Fox cares. They wouldn't be pursuing the X-Men TV rights if they didn't care. 20th Century Fox wants to expand its X-Men brand as much as possible. But there's a difference between want and need. They want the X-Men TV rights, but they don't need them.

If the X-Men tie in program brings in $2 million an episode from a streaming service the shareholders will be more concerned with that then what Disney/Marvel managed to end up doing with an IP that had no value to FOX.

Again, if Marvel Studios makes a Fantastic Four film that does Guardians of the Galaxy numbers, 21st Century Fox investors and shareholders will get pissed. You act as if the Fantastic Four IP has no value at 20th Century Fox, that's where you're wrong, they do have value. It's why the studio was so desperate to keep the film rights in the first place.

At the present time the only company that can put a Marvel branded program on the air is Marvel. In this scenario they are giving up exclusivity and increasing on-air competition in an already crowded marketplace in exchange for a minority stake in a program. When they could just put a "Young Avengers" or "Runaways" show on ABC, CBS or NBC and keep it all. FOX is making out much better than Disney/Marvel in this deal.

Except an X-Men TV should wouldn't be branded as Marvel. Just like how the X-Men films are not branded as Marvel. It wouldn't be a Marvel show, it would be an X-Men show.

Not only that but do you think that the Walt Disney Company would allow an X-Men program to compete with their ABC/Marvel shows? Hell no! Any deal would most likely include to ensure that an X-Men TV show is not on the same time slot as a Marvel TV show.

This has already been confirmed. It will be FOX.

Right now it is planned to be on Fox, but things can change especially since it will be 20th Century Fox's television division that will be making the show.

All of Spider-Man merchandising rights were owned by the Spider-Man Merchandising LP, which was co-owned by Marvel (75%) and Sony (25%). Any merchandising licensing fees were managed by this parnership, regardless whether they were from the comics or the films. Marvel bought out Sony's share in 2011 prior to the release of TASM.

Prior to the buyout, Marvel didn't have the option of putting out comic tie-in product for Spidey and retaining all of the licensing fees. They do with the X-Men and FF, whose deals are only for film tie-ins. So FOX's tie-in % has virtually zero value because a)The X-Men and FF don't have anywhere near Spidey's licensing appeal, b) Marvel can already put all the X-Men and FF merchandise they want into stores without paying FOX a dime and c) Marvel is concentrating their efforts on MCU characters.
FOX could hand these rights over tomorrow and we still wouldn't see kid Cyclops or Ivan Ooze figures on the shelves.

Of course Marvel is focusing on the MCU characters because that is where all of the merchandising opportunity is. If Disney got the opportunity to take advantage of having all of the rights concerning where their specialty is though, you're damn right they're going to take that deal. The merchandising rights have zero value for 20th Century Fox, but they certainly have value for the Walt Disney Company.

 

[VictorDomashev]

So that's why Fox was acting like they were planning on eventually crossing them over. And why they hired Mark Millar to work on bringing them together. And why they publish promotional articles acting as if the actors are all part of the same universe. It's their film rights, they can make any movie they want with them.

Or how Bryan Singer flat out said that if X-Men: Apocalypse and Fantastic Four did well, they would be crossing them over

That was simply false hype building to help promote the movie. Fox is after all not above false advertising. Such as removing the Fox logo from TV Spots. But still keeping the MARVEL logo

 

[Lilbaz]

From the way 20th Century Fox was promoting Fantastic Four and the rumors that were abound with an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover, it seems like they can. And I don't see why they can't. The film rights belong to them, they can use them in any fashion they wish.

They will not be sble to use them sny which way they wish. There will be thousands of stipulations regarding what they can and can't do with the characters. Crossovers may well be one of them.

 

[wobbly]

So that's why Fox was acting like they were planning on eventually crossing them over. And why they hired Mark Millar to work on bringing them together. And why they publish promotional articles acting as if the actors are all part of the same universe. It's their film rights, they can make any movie they want with them.

Or how Bryan Singer flat out said that if X-Men: Apocalypse and Fantastic Four did well, they would be crossing them over.

Millar bringing them together? The guy back-track within a day after saying they would be doing a crossover. Kinberg took a little longer, but he back-tracked also. The X-Men and the FF exist in their own 'discrete universes'.

Here is Singer's quote on the matter:

“There are those ideas in play,” Singer said. “That would be a natural match-up because they’re both ensemble films and there is a mechanism by which to do it.”

He added, “We have to see how the films turn out — how this film turns out, how ‘Fantastic Four’ plays, to really understand what kind of desire and how that would really work. I think to just say you’re gonna do it is a mistake. You have to see how the films evolve before you make the decision to completely commit to that.”

Singer would not give further details about the how the franchises would be combined other than saying: “It deals with time. That’s all I’m going to say.”

That isn't flat out saying they would do anything. It's completely non-committal and vague as hell. 'It deals with time'. How the hell is that meant to work then when they are in separate universes?

Singer was just doing his bit for the company line. No crossover? Doesn't matter to Singer as he didn't say they would be doing it at all. Anyone can say they have 'plans in play' to do something, doesn't mean they can.

 

[Zarex]

So that's why Fox was acting like they were planning on eventually crossing them over. And why they hired Mark Millar to work on bringing them together. And why they publish promotional articles acting as if the actors are all part of the same universe. It's their film rights, they can make any movie they want with them.

Or how Bryan Singer flat out said that if X-Men: Apocalypse and Fantastic Four did well, they would be crossing them over.

Talk is cheap. FOX is going to keep teasing a connected universe until folks wise up. Kinberg also mentioned that they wanted to put an X-Men TV show on their air before they were able to secure Marvel's approval.

Oh without a doubt Fox cares. They wouldn't be pursuing the X-Men TV rights if they didn't care. 20th Century Fox wants to expand its X-Men brand as much as possible. But there's a difference between want and need. They want the X-Men TV rights, but they don't need them.

And FOX needs the FF movie rights like they need a(nother) hole in the head. Sounds like we've got a deal!

Again, if Marvel Studios makes a Fantastic Four film that does Guardians of the Galaxy numbers, 21st Century Fox investors and shareholders will get pissed. You act as if the Fantastic Four IP has no value at 20th Century Fox, that's where you're wrong, they do have value. It's why the studio was so desperate to keep the film rights in the first place.

I'm sure there will be twinges of jealousy if that happens. Just like there will be when Episode 7 releases. But jealousy and spite do not keep a studio running. A FOX FF film is never, ever doing GOTG numbers. They need to own this and move on.

Except an X-Men TV should wouldn't be branded as Marvel. Just like how the X-Men films are not branded as Marvel. It wouldn't be a Marvel show, it would be an X-Men show.

The X-Men films are most certainly branded as Marvel. In fact as we got down to crunch time with FFINO the FOX logo was oft times lifted in order to sew confusion among potential viewers. If an agreement is reached the X-Men show will be preceded by the red Marvel logo. Just like the films.

Of course Marvel is focusing on the MCU characters because that is where all of the merchandising opportunity is. If Disney got the opportunity to take advantage of having all of the rights concerning where their specialty is though, you're damn right they're going to take that deal. The merchandising rights have zero value for 20th Century Fox, but they certainly have value for the Walt Disney Company.

I think Marvel would take that deal. I just don't think they'd do anything with it. With the MCU growing, they have no reason to promote FOX's movie slate. With Spidey, Avengers, Defenders and Guardians available for licensing, and with Inhumans coming up soon, I don't see Marvel putting coin into characters whose movie rights are tied up by FOX.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The question is can they legally do it without permission

The truthful answer is that we don't know. None of us do. We can only speculate.

 

[Dr Tactics]

Which Is why I said...

Or doesn't address the crossover permission in which Fox can't just assume they can do it and a lawsuit could be brought to Fox by Marvel if they do..

Its more complicated because it may be a Grey area that wouldn't be addressed unless Fox attempted to do so.. I hope they do.. I'd get my POPCORN READY for a long courtroom drama to watch FOX LOSE!!

Edit: Hopefully...

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Again, if Marvel Studios makes a Fantastic Four film that does Guardians of the Galaxy numbers, 21st Century Fox investors and shareholders will get pissed. You act as if the Fantastic Four IP has no value at 20th Century Fox, that's where you're wrong, they do have value. It's why the studio was so desperate to keep the film rights in the first place.

This is a myth that the folks at 20th Century Fox want to believe - to their detriment. ROTSS cost more and made less than the previous critically panned film. After 8 years of inflation, this new incarnation actually had a smaller budget ($122 million) than ROTSS ($130 million). It is the worst critical and financial failure yet and won't even sniff the box office of its much maligned predecessors.

If Fox keeps trying to milk this mythical cow what kind of budget will the next incarnation have? It has fail written all over it. To do the FF justice it's "Go big or go home". Now that Fox has screwed the pooch so many times and their version of the brand has become such an utter laughingstock, there is no way they'll ever justify the budget it needs to succeed. If during a bout of insanity they were to actually approve such a budget, their brand of the property is so tainted that movie goers would never give it a fair shake even if they did everything right.

Ergo the FF will be locked in a limbo of perpetual mediocrity as long as it's at Fox. It has no value.

Further, what makes people so convinced that an MCU FF would do GOTG numbers? The brand has been so thoroughly eviscerated that it is most likely too toxic for even Marvel to touch. Maybe years down the road but not now. I just don't see it.

If Marvel were to get back the FF, I see them utilizing certain supporting characters to help flush out their cosmic side like Uatu, Galactus and his heralds, Annihilus etc. but holding off on introducing the FF until enough time has passed to wash this sour taste out of people's mouths.

It's for this reason I would not be surprised if Marvel decides to simply wait it out until the lease expires 7 years from now.

 

[TeeKay]

Millar bringing them together? The guy back-track within a day after saying they would be doing a crossover. Kinberg took a little longer, but he back-tracked also. The X-Men and the FF exist in their own 'discrete universes'.

Here is Singer's quote on the matter:

“There are those ideas in play,” Singer said. “That would be a natural match-up because they’re both ensemble films and there is a mechanism by which to do it.”

He added, “We have to see how the films turn out — how this film turns out, how ‘Fantastic Four’ plays, to really understand what kind of desire and how that would really work. I think to just say you’re gonna do it is a mistake. You have to see how the films evolve before you make the decision to completely commit to that.”

Singer would not give further details about the how the franchises would be combined other than saying: “It deals with time. That’s all I’m going to say.”

That isn't flat out saying they would do anything. It's completely non-committal and vague as hell. 'It deals with time'. How the hell is that meant to work then when they are in separate universes?

Singer was just doing his bit for the company line. No crossover? Doesn't matter to Singer as he didn't say they would be doing it at all. Anyone can say they have 'plans in play' to do something, doesn't mean they can.

Not only that, I remember someone from Fox saying the FF and X-Men exist in parallel universes around the FF film was about to come out.

EDIT: Here it is.

"They exist in parallel universes," Kinberg and Parker told The New York Daily News. "The Fantastic 4 live in a world without mutants. And the X-Men live in a world without the Fantastic 4."
http://comicbook.com/2015/08/06/fantastic-four-and-x-men-movies-exist-in-parallel-universes/

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Whatever value Fantastic Four had at Fox it's gone now after this fiasco. It's ironic that the very film they made to KEEP the rights may end up costing them the rights after it's all said and done.

If Marvel sees an opportunity to get FF back I believe they will take it right away. If only to get it away from Fox so there is no risk of them doing another reboot just to hold onto it longer. Once they have it back they can sit on it until they figure out how to bring it into the MCU and revitalize interest in the property.

Fox doesn't have that luxury though.

 

[Tony Stark]

The truthful answer is that we don't know. None of us do. We can only speculate.

True, and it might even be more complicated, in that Fox might get their lawyers to say that "according to the language of the contract, we can proceed", and force Marvel to sue them to stop it from happening.

 

[Dr Tactics]

True, and it might even be more complicated, in that Fox might get their lawyers to say that "according to the language of the contract, we can proceed", and force Marvel to sue them to stop it from happening.

But If there is no language in the contract at all on the subject, what then?

 

[henzINNIT]

If it was just a matter of Fox being able to afford to wait it out a few years, sure, there's no real pressure on them.

But if you think about this film, both the studio and fans seemed skeptical after two previous weak efforts. Fox took every opportunity they could to distance themselves from the Story films, and while the fan-base was enthusiastic and excited in 2004, in 2014, they were skeptical and not shy about plastering that skepticism all over the internet.

With that history in mind and this latest film a much more dramatic failure and the mood of the fans much worse than it was 7 years ago, I can't imagine any scenario in which Fox risks the investment required to make another FF film in the next 7 years. I also can't imagine them seeing this property as valuable enough to put much effort into keeping it.

So while there might not be pressure on them, they know they won't be making any more FF films and if they don't at least get something now, they'll simply turn the rights back over for free in 7 years.

It's so completely inconceivable that Fox will make a fourth film after all this that the rights have their maximum value now. Marvel would be willing to pay a little to have things locked down now, have some certainty and be able to start working the characters into their long-term plans, but with each passing year, we just get closer to the inevitable time that Fox will hand them over for nothing.

Half a decade can change a lot of things. The market will be different, effects will be cheaper, the MCU's popularity could fizzle, they could land some interesting talent etc etc. It's inconceivable now for sure, but I could easily imagine Fox taking another stab at it. They could even just slash the budget next time to turn a profit.

 

[Zarex]

True, and it might even be more complicated, in that Fox might get their lawyers to say that "according to the language of the contract, we can proceed", and force Marvel to sue them to stop it from happening.

Or Marvel could sue after the fact for breach of contract. And request that both licensing agreements be declared null and void.

FOX has a lot more to lose if it goes to court, so I very much doubt they will combine the two contracts without Marvel's approval. And I don't see that coming.

 

[Dr Tactics]

Half a decade can change a lot of things. The market will be different, effects will be cheaper, the MCU's popularity could fizzle, they could land some interesting talent etc etc. It's inconceivable now for sure, but I could easily imagine Fox taking another stab at it. They could even just slash the budget next time to turn a profit.

 

[Tony Stark]

But If there is no language in the contract at all on the subject, what then?

My point is, Fox has dozens of lawyers on retainer (so does Disney). If their legal team feels they can defend Fox's actions in court, if they were to proceed without such a right being given, then they will do so.

In all likelihood this scenario would never occur, because most of the bean counters at Fox can't justify spending money on these characters, even in a joint effort.

 

[Dr Tactics]

My point is, Fox has dozens of lawyers on retainer (so does Disney). If their legal team feels they can defend Fox's actions in court, if they were to proceed without such a right being given, then they will do so.

In all likelihood this scenario would never occur, because most of the bean counters at Fox can't justify spending money on these characters, even in a joint effort.

Which is why they won't attempt the crossover... 100% agree

 

[Aztec]

1) I am not sure Fox is allowed to make a crossover between X-Men and Fantastic Four as per their Marvel contract.
2) I'm not sure that a cameo in another franchise would be enough to reset the rights.
3) Let's assume 1 & 2 are possible. Why would they? Yes Disney could cross Pirates otC with The Lone Ranger but why the hell would they? No one wants to see The Lone Ranger. They would just make a new Pirates movie. Same is true here. Why add a hated franchise with no following (Fox/Trank FFINO) to a franchise that audiences seem to like (X-Men)? Just make X films.
4) If they want a cinematic universe the X-verse actually provides one. Lots of off shoot opportunities and even space adventures to try.
5) As for a off shot SS film : a) Im not sure that is enough to keep the rights and b) they've already failed at that too remember?
6) They have nothing to gain by just letting the rights run out either. That's because they then have to give them away for free. If they trade now it's worth something to Marvel. Four years from now it won't be because Marvel will just wait them out for their next phase of films.
7) Fox wants this tv show. It's worth a lot to them. FF is worth less than zero to them. This is a no-brainier. This deal happens and happens soon after this abortion is out of theaters.

 

[Zarex]

A film that's become a national punchline, numerous stories of behind the scenes chaos, now an online request to sell the rights - these things add up. FOX has majorly ticked off many of the same folks they are hoping will buy tickets to Deadpool, Apocalypse and Gambit: The Movie. The Studio That Brought You Days Of Future Past has taken a huge hit in terms of public opinion.

What better way to start turning that negative impression around than reaching an accord with Marvel? And signing it before the marketing effort goes into full gear for Deadpool? Send the FF home and announce the expansion of the X-Men Universe. Make a deal that's both in your best fiscal interests as well as garner very positive publicity. It really is a no brainier.

 

[Val_Zod]

Half a decade can change a lot of things. The market will be different, effects will be cheaper, the MCU's popularity could fizzle, they could land some interesting talent etc etc. It's inconceivable now for sure, but I could easily imagine Fox taking another stab at it. They could even just slash the budget next time to turn a profit.

If the MCU's popularity fizzles, then Fox's Marvel properties fizzle. This isn't a simple under-performer that is mixed, but rather a gigantic bomb,both commercially, and critically. Think about it, a FF film bombed during the high light period of the genre. What makes you think they could turn it around in 7 years, when things are likely to cool down, and interest wanes? A sequel is out of the question, as the actors together will remind people of this stinker, and if they reboot, they risk alienating audiences even further.

Take TASM as example. Spiderman has a bigger built in audience, and generally more popular than FF, but his first reboot under-performed all previous films. Now quantify that with FF, which has never had a good film, and the latest attempt outright bombed, and yeah, you aren't ready to make that into another film, no matter how much the market changes. Heck, it will be hard to greenlit another FF movie during this 5 year span, given how packed the release windows are going to be.

 

[Chris B]

Shareholders and investors aren't the ones who greenlight films. While I certainly agree that we aren't getting a sequel to Trank's Fantastic Four for the obvious reasons, but Fantastic Four is still an IP with potential. And imagine how angry shareholders and investors would be if 20th Century Fox gave up the rights to Disney/Marvel only for them to make an extremely successful Fantastic Four film.

This is just my two cents, but I'm not sure Fox will feel that way anymore after this film. Unlike X-Men, or Spider-Man in the case of Sony, the FF has never been a lucrative property for them. Not to mention that they've never seemed to have much faith in the property to begin with.

After ROTSS they probably had reason to believe that if they just did something different, maybe they could still build a franchise, but now in light of this film, I'm not sure that they'll feel that way anymore. What other approach can they really take at this point? Embracing the source material and investing enough money is the only way the FF will ever work as a movie, and it's very unlikely that Fox will ever do that in light of possibly losing $60 million on this film. Financially that can take that, but I don't see why they would try again with the FF.

I think they can afford to let the property go as the X-Men franchises provides enough opportunities to keep them covered in the comic book movie market, not the mention the other franchises you mentioned.

Ultimately, I agree that it's not a sure thing that they'll trade in the FF for the X-Men TV rights, but I don't think its far fetched that they may if they get some concession from Marvel that they like.