X-Women (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by union_jak, May 19, 2006.

  1. union_jak Licky licky

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    I'm interested in the way female characters are treated in the X-Men movies. They appear to be equal; in powers and authority, but they always come off worst. Do people here see them as just objects for a 'man's movie'? I'd like to know people thoughts as I may follow this in my Degree.

    In X-Men 1 the casualties include Senator Kelly and apparently both Sabretooth and Toad. The latter two are debatable; even after being struck by lightning you can hear Toad scream, and Sabretooth only fell into a boat.
    Anyway, the real injured person was Mystique- we saw Wolverine stab her with his claws.

    In X-Men 2 we see a female police woman get hit by a fireball, a male one did as well, but he survived it. We don't see her get up. Lady Deathstrike, as an unknowing pawn is, again, killed by Wolverine. She was a victim really. As well as this we know Stryker and Jason die. But the biggest death was Jean Grey. She sacrificed her life so everyone else could live.

    In X-Men 3 it's thought we'll see a huge amount of deaths. Cyclops, Xavier and Quill will die. For females it's larger; Arclight, Psylocke and Callisto will all die. Whereas Warren Worthington Sr will be rescued, Dr Kavito Rao will be 'brutally murdered' by Quill. Jean will die again, by Wolverine yet again. In terms of cures; it appears that Mystique and Rogue will take it, and Magneto is the only main male to do so, and even then it sounds like his powers will return.

    Is it equal treatment for women, or movie pleasure for the guys to see?
    (I think I’ll link to Catwoman in Batman Returns and Elektra in DareDevil if I do make my report, as they get some violent scenes)
     
  2. PhoenixRising Registered

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    No. Its just the way the cards fell. Nobody is discriminative against women, in fact the movie is about how horrible discrimination is. :rolleyes:
     
  3. SpHinX Registered

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    I'm going to go kill myself now.
     
  4. dr venture Registered

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    This woman, according to the DVD commentary was also the fighter pilot that shot down the X-Jet.
     
  5. union_jak Licky licky

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    They weren't meant to be the same characters though, were they?
     
  6. neemer5 Registered

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    Hmmm, Senator Kelly Died, His assistant died, countless guards and and ship crewmen in X1 died, Countless male guards storming the mansion died, General Stryker AND his son died, we don't know what happened to Toad and Sabretooth... I don't see how that is one-sided.
    Women die, men die. Women are victims, men are victims.
    There is what is called a "male gaze" in cinema, but that pretty much goes for every movie.
     
  7. union_jak Licky licky

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    I'm not saying that I find it sexist, one sided or unfair in any way. I found the focus on female's deaths to be quite interesting. I just wanted opinions really, all this only occured to me after I heard that so many well known women die in X-Men 3.

    If anyone was going to be taking the Cure, I'd have thought Beast would have, not Rogue. If it was about acceptance and learning, why does she take it? To please a guy, to touch him for real.
     
  8. Avalanche Tremor

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    X1 - the real injured person was mistake?

    Dhe may have been stabbed, but she survived all good and well for two more movies. Sabretooth was hurled off the Statue of Liberty and landed on a hard boat, whilst toad was stuck by a bolt of lightning. Senator Kelly was turned into a mutant, which resulted in his death. Magneto trapped in a plastic prison.

    There are plenty of male tragedies, and the same can be said of X2 and X3.
     
  9. union_jak Licky licky

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    I'm thinking in terms of how they die as well as who dies. Even if Mystique did survive, she was stabbed with Wolverine's claws. I think that would hurt more than a strong man like Sabretooth landing on a boat.

    Lady Deathstrike was pumped with Adamantium whereas Stryker would have drowned. Again, I'm looking at pain here.

    I keep hearing how Dr Kavito Rao's death will be the most shocking of X3, I'm not sure how, but I'll know on Wednesday.
     
  10. The Guard Registered

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    I don't think these films are discriminating against women at all (Jean got a major arc in X2, Jean and Storm have a major part in X3, and Mystique has had a solid role throughout the franchise), but social ideas about woman certainly influence some of the things we see: I.E, women as weak/timid and being strong an amazing feat for them (in Storm's case, and Jean's case), or needing to use their sexuality/feminine wiles to gain power (Mystique, Callisto). Think about how much of the payoff in X3 about Storm's character is going to come from Storm being an asskicking woman in this film after the relatively timid soul she was in X-MEN and X2. There's definitely something to the idea. But that's more socially motivated than story-motivated.

    You could make some really LAME attempts to have Mystique being stabbed with Wolverine's claws and a needle and Deathstrike being "pumped full" via a needle as a representation of male phallic power and sexual subjugation of women, or what have you, but that's incredible thin. I don't think there's been a focus on female deaths, just that the females have had larger and more important roles than the males who have died, and therefore have had more interesting and relevant deaths than the males.
     
  11. ccopas Guest

    I'm interested in the way female characters are treated in the X-Men movies. They appear to be equal; in powers and authority, but they always come off worst. Do people here see them as just objects for a 'man's movie'? I'd like to know people thoughts as I may follow this in my Degree.

    Hi there! This is an interesting position but I really feel you're really stretching your observations. Your statement " they always come off worst" is highly subjective and you would make a better arguement if your examples were more objective. Also I think you should take into consideration the actual creators of this movie franchise. You can make an arguement that the X-Films are "big action movies" made from a gay man's perspective.



    In X-Men 1 the casualties include Senator Kelly and apparently both Sabretooth and Toad. The latter two are debatable; even after being struck by lightning you can hear Toad scream, and Sabretooth only fell into a boat. Anyway, the real injured person was Mystique- we saw Wolverine stab her with his claws.

    Again your arguement is very subjective. In some people's eyes being hit by lightening would be much worse than being stabbed. etc. etc. If only women were being injured you might have a case but the violence was pretty well spread.

    ]In X-Men 2 we see a female police woman get hit by a fireball, a male one did as well, but he survived it. We don't see her get up. Lady Deathstrike, as an unknowing pawn is, again, killed by Wolverine. She was a victim really. As well as this we know Stryker and Jason die. But the biggest death was Jean Grey. She sacrificed her life so everyone else could live.

    Again I think your arguement is backwards. Deathstrike was mostly likely a victim as was Jason who was left to die. (Nightcrawler could have easily ported him out). Jean "seemingly" dies to save everyone which is an act of bravery usually reserved for the male characters.

    In X-Men 3 it's thought we'll see a huge amount of deaths. Cyclops, Xavier and Quill will die. For females it's larger; Arclight, Psylocke and Callisto will all die. Whereas Warren Worthington Sr will be rescued, Dr Kavito Rao will be 'brutally murdered' by Quill. Jean will die again, by Wolverine yet again. In terms of cures; it appears that Mystique and Rogue will take it, and Magneto is the only main male to do so, and even then it sounds like his powers will return.Is it equal treatment for women, or movie pleasure for the guys to see?

    I cannot really comment on the new movie since I have yet to see it but I can make some assumptions.
    First why is it larger for women's deaths? Again very subjective. Why is taking the cure a bad thing? This is actually a good thing for Rogue and if she were my friend I wouldn't stop her from taking it. Mystique and Mags both are "cured" unwillingly, supposedly.

    The thing that puzzles me the most about your arguement is that it is contrary to the very themes of the story. The X-Men is general have always been about breaking stereotypes and not re-inforcing them. Hence you have characters like the following:

    Ororo Munroe: An African-American woman who is the LEADER. She is shown in a position of power. Her character hass yet to be defined by a relationship with a man. She is her own person. Not a typical cultural represention. Storm was one of the first true 3 dimensional african american female characters written in comics and "super hero" movies.

    Kitty Pryde: A tough, strong, intelligent Jewish woman. This is the character that most readers from the 80's grew up on. We saw the X-Men through her eyes. Now we will finally see her in the movie! And from the previews it looks like our fearless Kitten takes down the biggest strong guy in the flick and saves Iceman

    Mystique and Deathstrike: Yes they eventually lost to Wolverine but they held their own against him more than anyone else. These women are not to be toyed with. They need no man for protection.


    Another interesting thing about these films is the continual allusions to minority issues. In particular the "coming out" scene in X2. This was directly lifted from what most gays and lesbians go thru in their lives. And no wonder!!! The director and one of the major stars of the film are both openly gay.

    Yes, of course there are some left over stereo types that pervade the film yet I think these movies and the comic book should be applauded for what they have done to combat sterotypes, prejudice, and how everyone should be treated with respect. I mean that's why most people read these books and see these movies.
    Anyway just my two cents...I hope that helps!
    Craig
     
  12. JokerNick Registered

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    X-women......lol..... not the subject I would be reading about

    how bout xxx-women, sounds better to me
     
  13. JokerNick Registered

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    what about the soldiers wolveine killed in x2, all male
     
  14. ccopas Guest


    I think she takes it for more than just that. To touch ANYONE, a hug, a pat, a kiss...I would take the cure if I was her, her mutant powers make her much worse off than Hank McCoy. (obviously his mutant powers haven't held him back, he's is in the President's cabinet)
     
  15. union_jak Licky licky

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    I'm very grateful for the responses!

    It's not my personal belief that women are mistreated, I just gave a presentation on how reflective the books/films are on a variety of socio-historic and prejucides, so I'm aware of the many issues and themes involved. It makes X-Men more intelligent than other comic books, IMO. Thats why I was curious as to forum members own thoughts on women.

    I think we can say it's fairly balanced. Mystique comes off as smarter than Wolverine; they sent her into the base in X2, not Wolverine. She is also willing to become human to save Magneto and his mission.

    You would expect someone like Colossus to face off against Juggernaut, not Kitty Pryde. That's where X-Men excells. They won't follow the simply brawn v brawn route.

    Callisto is the leader of the Morlocks/Omega Muties, and Storm becomes both Head of the school and the leader of the X-Men. They aren't light positions, but very commanding.

    I think WW Sr lives so he can realise how much Angels mutation means to him, whereas having Dr Raos live would lead to complications- she has brought about a war, intentionally or not, and there is always a conclusion for those types of characters. It's not like they'd arrest her, someone would assassinate her anyway.

    Anyway, thanks for the discussion, I welcome more thoughts, just please don't presume I believe X-Men is discriminate, as I don't in any way, I was just trying to get ideas flowing :O
     
  16. JokerNick Registered

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    to please a guy, lol....... come on, are you saying that women do not like to show their love or emotions in a physical form......... give me a break..... women in nature are more touchy feely then guys, when I great my guy friends, I don't hug them, but my friends that are girls hug me...... so to sit there and say that rogue only wants to take the cure so she can please her boyfriend so he doesn't leave her, that's ingnorant
     
  17. ororoandme Storm Incarnate

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    *huggles Sphinx* don't do that!
     

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