X3 Climax Was Inspired By Phoenix Endsong

[gap5ewl]

That doesn't justify if the movies good or not. X3 was a complete sell out film. Rushed, mediocore at best plot, no depth to the characters, certain character killed of or reduced for others to shine since they are the bigger actors, and over the top special effects to just make it look shiney and more likable. It's ashame really how the movie businesses are lowering the standards because it makes "more" money...

 

[Horhey]

That doesn't justify if the movies good or not. X3 was a complete sell out film. Rushed, mediocore at best plot, no depth to the characters, certain character killed of or reduced for others to shine since they are the bigger actors, and over the top special effects to just make it look shiney and more likable. It's ashame really how the movie businesses are lowering the standards because it makes "more" money...

Unfortunetley, sci fi and horror movies in general have been following this trend. Look at the difference between the first Star Wars trilogy and the 2nd one. Go watch some old Friday the 13th or Halloween movies and then TRY and watch the newer ones.

 

[Loganbabe]

From what I've seen a lot of the Logan fans have the same attitude as some hardcore Storm fans have. In other words their attitude is "I don't care about the comics, nor do I care about the other characters. I want Logan all the time and he's more important than Storm, Cyclops, Rogue, Iceman, Beast, Colossus, and Angel."

I wasn't speaking about you, I'm talking about the hardcore fans who denounce all of the characters except for the ones they like.

Yeah, you were talking about me.
Look, I know you hate me; It´s so stupid to hate someone you don´t know anyway, but then you´ve been here for almost a year hating a movie, so I see you have a good experience on the subject.
Like danoyse said, put me on ignore if you hate me so much and stop with your obnoxius and never ending accusations. It´ll be so much better for us both, I guarantee.

::Camera turns to Logan slowly walking up to both of them::

Logan- Scott, I just want you to know that it's alright. ::Logan's claws reveal themselves, in which he stabs Jean and grants Jean mercy killing so Scott wouldn't have it on his conscience::

Jean- ::collapses in Scotts arms as Logan takes the claws out of her chest, and with her one last breath she says her final words:: I love you Scott....

So Scott doesn´t have the guts to kill Jean all by himself, and he has to use a tool. How convenient. And Logan is just that, a tool, he has no feelings, no emotions...he´s just some empty character who´s there to kill whenever Scott or anyone seems fit. He could have used a mere knife - or, in that case, ask someone to use it for him - that the effect would be the same.

Wait, what? It wasn't Iceman being funny? What do you mean? Wolverine had that line??? WHAT?! That makes no sense. Cause Bobby has always been ripping into Beast, since LITERALLY DAY FRIGGIN ONE!

Now that´s a bit too much. I know you hate movie Logan with a passion, but that´s another one I didn´t know. Now Logan can´t even be funny, or at least try to be, with that "humourless" sense of humour of his, because he´s stealing characteristic traits from Iceman!
Yeah, Logan, the guy who in the comics goes around the scholl calling people "Popsicle" or "One Eye". He would never play jokes on Beast like that.
Funny, it seems Logan can´t do anything in the movies because he´s always stealing something from other characters. He can´t show human traits - he can´t cry, can´t play jokes, can´t lead a battle. The only thing he´s supposed to do, I guess, is stand around with his claws out killing people, whenever deemed necessary.
So much for wanting a good development for ALL the characters...

P.S. And yes, the Wolverine mention was just to steer things back on topic. Ya know, the whole Wolvie turning into a weepy lovesick good guy rather than the ruthless ronin-esque S.O.B. he truly is just to make the X3 scene all the more meaningful and romantic. CLEVER!!!

Oh come on man, stop being so reductionist! Why is that Logan can´t be romantic in his own way? From where does that notion come from? It´s not from the comics, at least not the ones that were really meaningful and well written.
I never had problems in admitting that some of Logan's scenes in X3 were forced, and I really want for him to return as X1/X2 Logan, or even a more violent version, in his own movie. But him being only a violent psycho...really, what´s the interest in that? Why would you like a character who´s a ruthless s.o.b? So it seems Wolverine turned out to be a popular character because people all over the world love psychos? Well, not me...or I would have been a Saberthooth fan.
Even Frank Miller, who loves psychos, wasn´t interested in writing Wolverine because he looked too one-dimensional, too much the crazy guy with an attitude and no purposes, when Claremont asked him about them writing a mini together. The character began to change and improve back then, but it seems some writers and fans alike want him to reverse back to the old days when he didn´t have a personality and just stabbed people left and right.
What I really would like to see is that you all who claim loving comicversion Logan to give any ideas of how he should have been used in the movies. He can´t be romantic, he can´t be smart, he can´t give orders, he can´t tell jokes, he can´t cry...but yeah, he can stabb people. And that´s about it.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Yeah, you were talking about me.
Look, I know you hate me; It´s so stupid to hate someone you don´t know anyway, but then you´ve been here for almost a year hating a movie, so I see you have a good experience on the subject.
Like danoyse said, put me on ignore if you hate me so much and stop with your obnoxius and never ending accusations. It´ll be so much better for us both, I guarantee.



So Scott doesn´t have the guts to kill Jean all by himself, and he has to use a tool. How convenient. And Logan is just that, a tool, he has no feelings, no emotions...he´s just some empty character who´s there to kill whenever Scott or anyone seems fit. He could have used a mere knife - or, in that case, ask someone to use it for him - that the effect would be the same.


Now that´s a bit too much. I know you hate movie Logan with a passion, but that´s another one I didn´t know. Now Logan can´t even be funny, or at least try to be, with that "humourless" sense of humour of his, because he´s stealing characteristic traits from Iceman!
Yeah, Logan, the guy who in the comics goes around the scholl calling people "Popsicle" or "One Eye". He would never play jokes on Beast like that.
Funny, it seems Logan can´t do anything in the movies because he´s always stealing something from other characters. He can´t show human traits - he can´t cry, can´t play jokes, can´t lead a battle. The only thing he´s supposed to do, I guess, is stand around with his claws out killing people, whenever deemed necessary.
So much for wanting a good development for ALL the characters...


Oh come on man, stop being so reductionist! Why is that Logan can´t be romantic in his own way? From where does that notion come from? It´s not from the comics, at least not the ones that were really meaningful and well written.
I never had problems in admitting that some of Logan's scenes in X3 were forced, and I really want for him to return as X1/X2 Logan, or even a more violent version, in his own movie. But him being only a violent psycho...really, what´s the interest in that? Why would you like a character who´s a ruthless s.o.b? So it seems Wolverine turned out to be a popular character because people all over the world love psychos? Well, not me...or I would have been a Saberthooth fan.
Even Frank Miller, who loves psychos, wasn´t interested in writing Wolverine because he looked too one-dimensional, too much the crazy guy with an attitude and no purposes, when Claremont asked him about them writing a mini together. The character began to change and improve back then, but it seems some writers and fans alike want him to reverse back to the old days when he didn´t have a personality and just stabbed people left and right.
What I really would like to see is that you all who claim loving comicversion Logan to give any ideas of how he should have been used in the movies. He can´t be romantic, he can´t be smart, he can´t give orders, he can´t tell jokes, he can´t cry...but yeah, he can stabb people. And that´s about it.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. This post is living proof on how you completely, purposefully, and intentionally misunderstood the point of my rewrite. The rewrite wasn't because Scott didn't have the guts, I wrote it because Scott was struggling to do it and Logan who has a good heart, is honorable, and sees Scott struggling he puts the burden on himself rather than Scott killing Jean.

It's a concept that's been used in tv, movies, and comics for a long time. Charles Gunn, of Angel, saw that Fred was entering a dark path when she wanted to murder her former professor for sending her into a demonic dimension. Because he loved Fred and didn't want to lose her, he took the sin on himself so she wouldn't have the blood on her hands. Yes, it turned their relationship sour, however, it was an emotional and beautiful moment because he would rather live with the pain, the sin, and the blood than watch someone he cares about committ the ultimate murder.

Now with Scott and Logan, I wrote it for Logan displaying his honor and kind heart by showing his respect and care for Scott by him killing Jean. Guess what? Another poster literally provided a comic book drawn picture of the same scenario I provided. Logan is standing there with Jean's blood on his claws, Scott is holding her in his arms, and he releases an optic blast into the sky.

So your post clearly shows that you didn't want to understand it and took it as an insult to Logan. But that's your problem, not mine.

 

[gambitfire]

has the stereotyping decreased yet?

*looks around*

No?

Ok i'll be somewhere away from here.

 

[TheWeatherMan]

I am tired as hell, but I will be back tomorrow (later today) to comment. It's hot in here... gee-wiz!

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

P.S. And yes, the Wolverine mention was just to steer things back on topic. Ya know, the whole Wolvie turning into a weepy lovesick good guy rather than the ruthless ronin-esque S.O.B. he truly is just to make the X3 scene all the more meaningful and romantic. CLEVER!!!

Oh come on man, stop being so reductionist! Why is that Logan can´t be romantic in his own way? From where does that notion come from? It´s not from the comics, at least not the ones that were really meaningful and well written

What I really would like to see is that you all who claim loving comicversion Logan to give any ideas of how he should have been used in the movies. He can´t be romantic, he can´t be smart, he can´t give orders, he can´t tell jokes, he can´t cry...but yeah, he can stabb people. And that´s about it.

God damnit. Will you stop being so bloody defensive? t:

And just for the record, I did type "weepy lovesick good guy" rather than just "romantic".

Look, the ruthless ronin-esque S.O.B. thingy takes precedence to the romantic angle of Wolvie's persona. That's all I'm f****n saying. Him being a warrior overrides pretty much everything else he's been, whether it's in a lover, friend, mentor capacity.

Let me use Batman and Supes as an analogy.

Batman is this angry fellow wearing a mask, a suit and beating the f**k out of bad guys at night. Supes is the boy-scout wearing tights, flying around and beating the f**k out of bad guys.

Are those characters more than just that? Abso-f****n-lutely.

Still, it's what DEFINES THEM THE MOST.

And in Logan's case, it's the warrior thingy that just does that.

The reason I'm being so - pointedly, mind you - reductionist is that I'm poiting out that they tried to expand Wolvie's horizons but didn't even get the f****n CORE right.

Relax. t:

 

[javon]

Bah, she's not that bad.

Rather her than hardcore Storm fans because at least she doesn't keep reminding us why he's OMG roxor better than everyone else. That's me giving you props, Loganbabe. t:

It's just that anything that resembling Wolvie bashing really ticks her off. Even though we can keep pointing out said "bashing" only applies to one crappy incarnation of the character. Oh well. t:

Dear god, yes.

To put it politely, the most hardcore of them don't just like her.

She's the rightful goddess queen of the universe. Everyone else sucks when compared to her. It's not an opinion, it's an established fact. Written in stone at the top of mount Olympus with thunder lighting up the sky and all that s**t. t:

What the hell is wrong with you? I come here to post and it's bad enough you carry this childish crap to the comic section, now you such a boring life that you have to bash her/the fans in a entierly irrelevent way? Why does everything turn into a "Storm is so powerful and her fans like it!!!!!!" with you? It's very immature and irrelevent. Anyway, I agree that the comic thingy did nothing to the movie itself. It sucked......BIG TIME.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

You know what, were was the actual fan bashing?

All I said was that most of you hardcore fans are real stubborn and vocals about how Storm kicks a$$ and takes name 24/7. That's pretty much a bloody fact.

That would be like me saying most hardcore Jott fans f****n hate Scott/Emma and Emma as an individual because she f****d up their fav pairing. Or that most Cyke and Rogue are f****n pissed at how the characters were handled in X3. Once again, pretty much bloody fact.

And...

Huh, WTF?? 2 posts. From days ago. To which I never intended to anything further. And yet *I* am the immature one with a grudge? This is campy irony, right? t:

And if I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. Please, please, good God, just grow a bloody sense of humor. Or just shrug it off. Something. Geez.

 

[Mother_Askani]

X3 haters like to bash Fox, Brett Ratner, Simon Kindberg, and Zack Penn becouse they had Wolverine kill Dark Phoenix but that scene was actually referenced from X-Men Phoenix Endsong written by Greg Pak.

Matter of fact, X3 has more scenes referenced from the comic than X1 and X2. Why do alot of X3 haters choose to ignore this?

Basing the ending on Endsong was flawed in a lot of ways.

One, it's a story that a lot of old-time X-fans absolutely hate. Or haven't read. I won't get into why I hate it, since that would be a 25,000 word essay and kind of off topic.

Endsong pales in comparison to the number of fans who love the classic Dark Phoenix saga or have at least read Dark Phoenix or seen the animated version of Dark Phoenix. Had they gone with some ending that was inspired by Dark Phoenix - that was centered on Scott & Jean and Jean sacrificing herself, then that would have been something fans might have really responded to.

Even if you look at sales figures, 6 times as many people are familar with Wolverine attempting to kill Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men 207, where Wolverine stabs Rachel in the heart and lungs and she is able to telekinetically seal her wounds. So, in that case, Wolverine was unable to actually kill the Phoenix.

(Phoenix Endsong averaged selling about 85,000 copies an issue, whereas Uncanny X-Men in the mid-80s was averaging sales of 500,000 an issue).

So the Wolvie's infamous "SNIKT" to Phoenix in Uncanny 207 certainly had a bigger audience than Endsong.

So, why not use this rather than Endsong? Probably because the X3 writers just read a few recent books (Whedon's Astonishing and Endsong) and called that their research.

One of my biggest problems with the movie is that it's such a Wolverine fanboy-fest that Wolvie could actually kill the Phoenix. Phoenix can wipe out stars, crush planets, and nearly took out Galactus, yet Logan can kill her by stabbing her? That's ridiculous. It's already been shown that that won't kill a Phoenix in Uncanny 207.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Basing the ending on Endsong was flawed in a lot of ways.

One, it's a story that a lot of old-time X-fans absolutely hate. Or haven't read. I won't get into why I hate it, since that would be a 25,000 word essay and kind of off topic.

*snorts*

Yeah, it wasn't exactly a classic, but come on, a bunch were pissed because it didn't turn out to be a Jott fest. You know it, I know, we all know it. t:

So, why not use this rather than Endsong? Probably because the X3 writers just read a few recent books (Whedon's Astonishing and Endsong) and called that their research.

Most likely just read cliff notes. t:

One of my biggest problems with the movie is that it's such a Wolverine fanboy-fest that Wolvie could actually kill the Phoenix. Phoenix can wipe out stars, crush planets, and nearly took out Galactus, yet Logan can kill her by stabbing her? That's ridiculous. It's already been shown that that won't kill a Phoenix in Uncanny 207.

Refer to all my cracks about movieverse Phoenix being a dimwitted wuss. t:

 

[Angamb]

For me, the movie wasn't great, but what I think about Phoenix death is that it was a sacrifice, beacuse Jean let him kill her. She could have killed him since the beggining, but Jean didn't want it, so she had a decision. Don't you think? Logan didn't kille her, was she.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

For me, the movie wasn't great, but what I think about Phoenix death is that it was a sacrifice, beacuse Jean let him kill her. She could have killed him since the beggining, but Jean didn't want it, so she had a decision. Don't you think? Logan didn't kille her, was she.

And she couldn't have done just that with Scott or Charles because...??

Nice try, and I do think you were being genuine, but let's get real, folks, the X3 climax was a ******ed - OOC at that, which is so ironic it's not even funny - Wolvie lovefest. t:

 

[Angamb]

I understand what you say, yes all glory went to Logan, I hate this idea too.
I only wanted to say that was Jean who decided to die, not Logan, being a hero... although in some form he was it, for have kill her, but that's other point.

 

[storm-x-fan]

X3 haters like to bash Fox, Brett Ratner, Simon Kindberg, and Zack Penn becouse they had Wolverine kill Dark Phoenix but that scene was actually referenced from X-Men Phoenix Endsong written by Greg Pak.

Matter of fact, X3 has more scenes referenced from the comic than X1 and X2. Why do alot of X3 haters choose to ignore this?

though u asked why why x3 haters chose to ignore this and taht i'm nto an x3 hater, i belive they ignore this, cause they love to critisize their x-men and they know this info can spoil the debate and make them lose. anyway, u guys do lose. nah na na na na

 

[sc12een17am3]

And she couldn't have done just that with Scott or Charles because...??

Nice try, and I do think you were being genuine, but let's get real, folks, the X3 climax was a ******ed - OOC at that, which is so ironic it's not even funny - Wolvie lovefest.

well think about it. it was the Phoenix side that revealed to Cyke at the lake and she didnt know how dangerous Phoenix was till after she realized she killed Cyke. how can Jean tell Scott to kill her?

and the next time Charles saw Jean, she was in a Phoenix state. how can Jean tell him to kill her?

the only person who saw Jean in a conscious state was Wolvie. after he she realized she killed scott. she even said that she needed to be killed. her forshadow of her sacrifice

yes at the final battle Wolvie was able to have Jean come out of the Phoenix state to allow him to kill her. but he's not the only factor that allowed Jean to finally come out of Phoenix state. remember the deleted scene of the scared girl? Phoenix anger was already being weakin by Jean's good side. its just needed Wolvie's last help to bring Jean back then kill her.

yeah its gave Wolvie more of a glory, but the first 2 movies were leading up to his glory anyways... i pretty much figuered that we will see more of him

and i loved all the comic references in x3, to bad many dont recognized them -_-

 

[BMM]

well think about it. it was the Phoenix side that revealed to Cyke at the lake and she didnt know how dangerous Phoenix was till after she realized she killed Cyke. how can Jean tell Scott to kill her?

and the next time Charles saw Jean, she was in a Phoenix state. how can Jean tell him to kill her?

How is this Phoenix state any different than the one she is in when Wolverine confronts her at the end of the movie? Jean is aware she (or something) has killed Cyclops in both scenes. She has already displayed a willingness to die prior to both scenes. Both Xavier and Wolverine are able to talk to Jean. During both scenes, the Phoenix clearly takes control placing Jean in a Phoenix state. Yet, Jean/Phoenix kills Xavier (which is something she would never allow herself to do) while Wolverine is allowed to live. What gives?

The Phoenix has proven to dispose itself of all sources of agitation which seek to control or terminate its existence (Wolverine in the infirmary, Xavier at the Grey household, Magneto in the forest, the soldiers at Alcatraz, etc.). In addition, Wolverine has a pre-conceived plan to stop the Phoenix at all costs at Alcatraz a la his discussion with Storm prior to boarding the X-Jet. So why is he suddenly allowed to live, as opposed to someone like Xavier, when the Phoenix would see to it that Wolverine and anyone else who is looking to stop her would meet his untimely demise at her hands? Was she looking to finish their quickie that began in the infirmary? Was Jean Grey able to hold back the Phoenix despite the fact that she hasn't been shown capable of doing so when the Phoenix previously chose to present itself, including the time at Alcatraz? Or did Wolverine suddenly become a super-powerful demigod capable of stopping the most powerful mutant on the planet through sheer will power alone?

I think there needed to be more explanation regarding Jean and her internal struggle with the Phoenix... because there really wasn't any... and unfortunately, that is the basis of the story.

 

[04nbod]

And she couldn't have done just that with Scott or Charles because...??

Nice try, and I do think you were being genuine, but let's get real, folks, the X3 climax was a ******ed - OOC at that, which is so ironic it's not even funny - Wolvie lovefest. t:

I agree- the x men are about the team and having that as a message is all well and good except but having wolverine as 'the only one to stop her' makes the message moot. I liked that it resembled the confrontation at the end of x1 between rogue and wolverine but by removing cyclops the true heart of the phoenix saga is gone. At no point did i think jean loved logan making the ending all one sided. It also made no sense that jean/phoenix demolecularised her mentor and her fiance but left this guy who she barely knew pretty much unscathed. The writers did not understand the characters they were writing, that or they ignored it

 

[Redd_Angel]

ok, i have my own problems with the movie, but after almost a year, i've learned to just accept it as it is. i really can't do anything about it now.

AND:

It also made no sense that jean/phoenix demolecularised her mentor and her fiance but left this guy who she barely knew pretty much unscathed.

imo, phoenix was trying to demolecularize logan. he just kept healing himself - and i have to admit his healing factor was working much faster than it should. but he was still healing himself.