Ye ol' Bought-n'-Thought Hoedown, October 26, 2011 - SPOILERS

[Dread]

Yes, but that was all behind the scenes. Marvel essentially said screw continuity to just have a moment that can "prove" that it Ben wasn't the real Peter. The problem with it was that their moment made zero sense with established continuity of the character. They wanted to prove that ben wasn't real and so they made him degenerate when Ben couldn't degenerate. It's like if Cyclops accidently killed Havoc by blasting him too hard and we were told to accept it because editorial wanted to make a point. Their powers don't work on each other but now it does just because. Just because editorial makes something happen doesn't mean it makes sense within the confines of the page and it leaves a gap wide open. That is the case with Ben Reilly.

His death proving something has absolultely nothing to do with whether or not it was a legit death. Sure, he's not the real Peter... whatever... but that doesn't mean his death made sense or was conclusive by any stretch of the imagination.

Cyclops and Havok could actually hurt each other in the AGE OF APOCALYPSE reality, despite them still being brothers there and no sort of explanation for that fact being given aside for it being a universe in which Xavier died in high school and Apocalypse took over North America.

I suppose the in story reason was that any statements that Jackal claimed in which Reilly was a clone who couldn't degenerate were lies. That's my No-Prize, at least.

The point, however, stands. REVELATIONS was mostly an editorial gesture to get Reilly off the stage and prove definitively that he wasn't "the real" Spidey after Marvel goofed and claimed he was (or made that fact questionable). Obviously, editorial chose to kill Reilly rather than kill him off. They couldn't just have some character wander on panel and say, "I declare thee the TRUE Spider-Man, Peter Parker!" unless it was the Watcher or something ridiculous. Thus, they chose to have him break down. At that point the story didn't matter and it was all about damage control, the same as with the whole "baby May" subplot that vanished into the ether.

I actually am very excited to see Norman back in the Avenger books. He's a great foil for them and I like that Bendis plans on playing up his feud with Spider-Man in this plot. That said, I actually never liked his return in Revelations. I've come to accept it though.

REVELATIONS stunk. The irony is if Marvel hadn't revived Norman in 1996 there, they surely would have around 2002 when the first film came out. So if one thinks about it, it was a bit of hackery ahead of it's time. It still felt off to me and still does. I've had enough Osborn, so I don't mind him filling the void in AVENGERS left by Hood as "the villain they face in every single story ever".

Not as graphic but definately more final. Jackal, unmistakably Jackal, was shown falling to his death and there was a body and he was pronounced dead. Kaine had a large beam shoved through his heart. Both came back like it was nothing. As was said before, Ben could easily just be out wondering again building evidense that he is the actual clone or with amnesia or something.

The Jackal, as I said, is akin to Mr. Sinister, or Ultron, or Donald Pierce, in that he can always return in new bodies every time he totally dies on panel. The audience accepts that especially as he's all about clones and obviously so. Hell, the Red Skull has gotten out of death a few times that way.

The dilemma is Kaine was never claimed to have once been "the real" Spidey. Marvel lost their way with CLONE SAGA when they didn't think the audience wanted Reilly as a star if he was the clone, since Marvel wanted to shuffle the Parkers into the sunset. Instead Marvel claimed he was the real article and Peter since the 70's had been the clone, which was a drastic misstep. If you claim the death never happened, then someone might bring up the old debate again and now is a bad time for that. People are just starting to try to get past OMD/OMIT, or at least enough of them that the book sells decent.

Yes, but the point is that Marvel tried so hard to make people forget the Clone Saga ever existed. Now they're reintroducing people to Ben Reilly through flashbacks. Readers starting with BND know who Ben Reilly is already because of the arc with Raptor. To bring him back wouldn't be near as difficult. It would take one issue and that's it.

2 page flashback to reintroduce Ben's old relationship with Peter and his degeneration death. Other stuff with Peter going on. Ben shows up and Peter is happy to see him but ticked off that he's never told him he's alive. Ben explains that after he was switched with a clone by Osborn he had to discover the truth about it all. Give some page or two explanation as to how he did this and prove that he is certainly a clone and that Peter is real, and then explain why he was away for so long... imprisoned or something. Maybe enlisted in the Iraq war or something, who knows? Peter is glad to see him alive, give some brotherly punch for freaking him out for so long, and call it done. Less than an issue right there, all plot points are resolved, all the crappy "clone or the real one" stuff is taken care of, and they can move forward. That's it.

The major difficulty with that is that if Reilly was akin to a brother to Peter, then Peter should have missed him more. In Marvel's zeal to pretend the story never happened, Peter almost never acknowledged Reilly existed, and if he did make a reference, it was a joke. Therefore, it would be very difficult to convince readers that a chunk of Peter had been missing since 1996 when virtually no story has made it seem as any more of a big deal than other random people who've died on Spidey. It would have had to have been built up a little.

In fairness, it probably should have mattered more given how often Peter has endless flashbacks to when Gwen died, and sometimes to when her father died.

Frankly, if they did want to revive Reilly, I'd rather they not ignore the fact that he died and just undo that. Scoop up the ashes and regrow him with science somehow with a lot of big words, like "biological" or "splicing". C'mon, I've seen worse - I've seen Superboy Prime punching reality itself revive someone. That, or magic. I hate retcons that just deny the death ever happened, usually. Bucky's death was a rare exception because Stan Lee's offing of him in the 60's was itself a retcon, as that'd never happened in prior Cap comics (which were published into the 50's). It was just a retcon which became a fundamental building block until Brubaker challenged it. And even when Brubaker brought Barnes back, he devoted a year's story to it. I don't think Reilly's return should have been breezed over in a few pages. Love him or hate him, it would have been a big event. The fact that Marvel teased it in so many promotions, and still does with SCARLET SPIDER, shows you can't really do it as a Steve Gerber infodump.

I don't WANT Ben to be darker but if that's what Marvel wanted it would have been easier and more believable to do it with Ben than to make Kaine suddenly chatty and chipper.

The dilemma with Ben Reilly was he was created to basically be Spider-Man, only single and with different color hair. Once that plan backfired, it was a lot of back-tracking.

In fairness, Reilly seemed to enjoy combat more than Peter did. Which, again, is USELESS now that Peter knows kung-fu from Shang Chi. Not even THAT detail would be unique.

Kaine's shift in character is awkward, but apparently less awkward than reviving someone who turned to ash as editorial sacrificed during a prior editorial era.

Which is fine, but then make him Kaine... not Ben Reilly wannabe.

I did like the banter, I just found it odd coming from Kaine. It was one of a few moments where I thought I'd seriously missed some detail from not reading prior BND stories, or even the WEB OF SPIDER-MAN story that had Kaine in it.

Apparently, being "cured" of clone degeneration and mutations from "anti-venom" also alters personalities.

I didn't read SI so I have no idea who the Spider-King is. I heard rumor that Ben might have returned but knew it likely wasn't true so I didn't pay attention and it never came back up again.

And having both Ben and Kaine back would be fine. They were such distinctively different characters from Peter and each other that they could always have survived in a shared universe together... and the same with Spidercide. That was the good thing about the Clone Saga and these clones are that the creators fleshed them out enough to be individual, not just cheap copies.

Nobody wants to see Spidercide, give it up, dude. You're starting to look like that guy who insists disco isn't dead.

The problem with clones is that they simply become spin off splinters of the main character, and Spider-Man hasn't been able to launch those. DC has a ton of them - Superman's family of books, Batman's family, and to a degree Green Lanterns - but Marvel really doesn't. They're trying it with Wolverine, and seeing diminishing returns. VENOM is doing okay, but SPIDER-GIRL tanked. The problem is all Kaine or Reilly or Kaine-as-Reilly can offer is the same old Spider-Man only with a different costume (mostly) and maybe a different local and one quirk, and that's it. But that's sort of the dilemma I had with BATMAN, INC. as a concept. All more copies of a character does is degrade the original essence of the character - as all the lame Wolverine knock-off's have done over the years.

This is the only part where I semi-agree with you. It would be hard to find a role for Ben in the Marvel Universe today but his brotherly connection with Peter is a start. I mentioned the Academy role as a thought. Hey, maybe he can marry MJ and have baby May! It's not like Peter's using her at the moment

MJ would seem cheap for abandoning Peter to settle with the clone.

But, yes, there's not really a market for Spider-Man B right now. If there is one, they're reading VENOM which is a stronger concept with a long time supporting character being embellished. He has nothing to offer but another Spider-Man in a different costume and setting. I don't think we need a Spider-Man Inc. when we already have Venom, Spider-Girl and the MVP Spider (who just showed up in most issues of FEAR ITSELF: THE HOME FRONT).

About the only place that doesn't have a Spider-Man is space, and Spidey doesn't work there. Just seen "SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED", the 1999 cartoon. Or don't.

But it flew wonderfully when it happened with Colossus in the 00's. It's heralded as one of the best modern runs of the X-Men and no one blinks an eye.

It was also Joss Whedon. Everything he does is overrated.

Which is ten times more difficult and confusing than Ben's return could be, and yet it was accepted just fine.

Not really. Whedon didn't deny that Colossus died; just undid the cremation. He has aliens basically revive Colossus via Alien Maguffin Machine.

Kaine wouldn't make sense but Reilly would be fine. He's just as intelligent as Peter but with more world travels. Him getting out of NY to LA is in character and him trying to find a life for himself outside of Peter's would also make sense. Also, they are really trying to build up LA as a legit place in Marvel like New York is with Moon Knight, Runaways, Daken, and the Avengers Academy (plus half the X-Men off the shore of San Fransisco). It can only help sales to have a Spider-Man out there too. And you act like Teaching is a hack profession... it's a fantastic profession. Plus, you have students who are a risk to themselves and Ben knows what that's about being a "fake" of the successful Peter.

RUNAWAYS was canceled, MOON KNIGHT's sales are not stable and DAKEN has been steadily sinking, too.

If Reilly had been off the stage so long, he wouldn't have much to offer in terms of teachable experience and would just seem as Spider-Man Lite to the genre savvy kids at the Academy (who tore down Spidey's entire reason for why he couldn't make money as Spider-Man apart in a single page). I suppose there's then an arc where he proves them wrong, but what next?

But you have to admit... none of those bounce off Peter as well as Ben did in his day. Only MJ could compare but that was tainted with OMD. Does he need a brother, not necessarilly, but would he benefit from having one again, absolutely.

It's a role that hasn't been missed, and thus hard to fill.

But he doesn't fill the role like Ben did. Ben and Peter were true 'brothers' but Kaine is being shoehorned in at that role. It's much more awkward and Ben could have been a simple one issue plot and it'd be back in full force. Plus, Kaine was such a great badguy that shoehorning him into Ben's role removes that. Building Kaine as an anti-hero on his own is a great idea but then putting him in Ben's shoes as the Scarlet Spider takes away from his individuality and makes him less interesting. So for me, in theory, they're hurting Kaine in this trade as well.

I do agree that making Kaine and Reilly seem interchangeable does neither any favors, and showcases the agenda more than the story.

Again, it isn't a role that has been missed, so convincing everyone it had to be filled again would be awkward.

I think a hook to revive Reilly would be to have him be drafted to Exiles, whose last MO was to snatch their members from death ALA the Mick Jagger /Emilio Estevez masterpiece Freejack. (Anthony Hopkins too!)

Really I do think more or equally difficult resurrection bits have been done.

Dread,

As for your thoughts on Bandit, I now don't really have complaints about the swap, or feel the need to see Dwayne come back "now", I think grievioux did a good job. While dynamics may have changed and their may be more story potential, he's essentially the same character. Knowing Marvel, 2 ears from now NT will be back and mysteriously be Dwayne, for all their continuity respect among writers now. Many people will critizize that last NW book for not being the New Warriors book we fans wanted, but i thought it was a pretty quality book on it's own..especially a good Night Thrasher story.

I'll probably check out this new SS book despite my gripes, it's up my alley and worth a shot. Spider Island was very good IMO, so I'm willing to check it out.

I really did enjoy the newest New Warriors book. Yeah, it wasn't really New Warriors but it was still a really good book on its own. I loved the arc with Machinesmith (I think that was his name). And I forget his new name but I honestly LOVED Redneck in that book and hated when he died. I'd like to see him return and since Stacey X mysteriously lived through the explosion that killed them both, there's a chance.

Well, honestly there's little to no chance anyone cares enough to bring him back... but one can hope.

I liked Wondra more than Vampire Jubilee, FYI.

I don't buy the "continuity is too complicated for new readers" argument. Until 3 years ago I hadn't read an x-men comic since the mid 90's. All it took was an afternoon on wikipedia to catch up on things. Xaiver gone, jean dead, scott is as paranoid as bruce wayne, emma's a hero, x-men live in sf, nightcrawler dead, mutants not being born, hope born, mutants born again....Bam

I'll do you one better, Nerd...I came on all the books BEFORE there was Wikipedia and the web was as expansive as it is today. It took a little while, but I eventually got all caught up as much as anyone can be without losing any enjoyment in the stories I started with. And so had many others I know.

Assuming one cares to do internet research to grasp a continuity. People are lazy.

 

[THANOSRULES]

Vampire version of X-men characters is just old hat and tired.

I remember that old What if? where Dracula infected Wolverine and Storm and there we went (which stemmed from the 1st Xmen Dracula arc)

Its a tired 30 year old concept that Xmen has been fascinated with for some reason...that and the horseman izing.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I still like the Horseman-izing, but yeah, I wasn't a big fan of Jubilee becoming a Vampire. That said, it's turned out to be a better read than I expected. I really enjoyed the Wolverine & Jubilee mini and I'm curious what will become of her role in adjectiveless X-Men during Regenesis.

 

[fifthfiend]

Yep... it sure is sad when people hang on to stuff years later.... makes it even more sad when it's about comic books...

As always, TMOB's criticism of himself and the other babbies who raged for decades over Peter Parker's excellent relationship with Mary Jane is spot-on.

 

[Themanofbat]

As always, TMOB's criticism of himself and the other babbies who raged for decades over Peter Parker's excellent relationship with Mary Jane is spot-on.

You always manage to make me smile...

 

[fifthfiend]

What's really sad is that they continue to rage even after the fetid pile of dog turds that comprises every post-OMD spidey comic has proven again and again how utterly wrong they were, but rage on they shall, forever.

 

[Themanofbat]

My gawd... methinks I'm LOLing...