Young Justice Cartoon - Part 2

[Dread]

While I suppose it is nice that the obligatory comic based on the animated series "counts" - especially the issues written/co-written by Greg Weisman himself - a very small minority of fans are going to read it. Specifically, because most retailers order it akin to how they order usual "kiddie books", which means they'll order about 3 copies at best unless they're big Manhattan or L.A. retailers. Which means even if one wants to read them, they can be a bear to find. I certainly hope the writers of this show do not assume most of their fans will get the supplemental comics. Most of their viewers will only see the TV show, and thus it's that medium where key data and characterization must be sufficient.

 

[Gold Samurai]

Going by what we know now about what's finished, if they had waited till THIS JULY they would have been fine.

Last July they had the 2 part pilot episode and even that was rushed.



If "Independence Day" aired this weekend for the first time then they could go till episode 15 and beyond



We can just ignore last year and pretend "Young Justice" is starting properly


From some posts here and there people have nearly forgotten about the show anyways

 

[Dread]

The way I see it, WB wanted "YOUNG JUSTICE" on TV as soon as possible because Marvel's cartoon shows were starting to flood the networks again. We had "MARVEL SUPER HERO SQUAD" on CN. We had "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" and "IRON MAN: ARMORED ADVENTURES" on NickToons. We had "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" and then "AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES" on Dixney XD. And we have "Marvel Anime" coming on G4 that is already being promoted to teenagers via illegal DL's and all that. This is atop the fact that Marvel films are coming out at a steady clip, whether from Marvel Studios or other studios like Fox. DC/WB I think are aware that they've sort of been in a near comatose state in terms of media adaptations and presence for most of their characters beyond Batman and Superman for much of the last decade. Virtually all a common viewer knows of any other DC characters they likely learned from "JLU" - that ended 5 years ago. Why else were WB/DC so desperate to get any DC guest star possible on "SMALLVILLE"? Or settled on using "BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD" to have Batman more or less introduce other DC heroes (besides Superman) to audiences?

Plus, it is also possible that WB/DC wanted to snatch up Greg Weisman after Disney had basically led to him being fired from a show once again (this time at Sony) before they rehired him for another show (which has happened a few times; they cut him loose from "GARGOYLES", rehired him for "W.I.T.C.H." - nature of the biz). The production of YOUNG JUSTICE seemed rushed and if one thinks about it, even the premise was all over. In interviews, Greg has stated that the company wanted another Justice League type show, but with younger characters and not simply redoing "JLU". Flashback to the end of the 90's, and Bruce Timm (and some of his other fellow producers/writers) claimed that Kid's WB's wet dream was to have a show in which Batman was the mentor to a team of teenaged Justice League members, which was a show Timm didn't want to do - and BATMAN BEYOND was basically a sort of network compromise ("I'll give you a teenage Batman, but my way which makes sense"). Fast-forward about a decade later, and people at WB still had essentially the same wish list - a show in which Batman mentors a teenage justice league. Sounds like a premise someone took out of a drawer every few years, and while Timm or McDuffie usually moved onto other things, Weisman was a new face. After clearing out his office at Sony in early 2009, Weisman had basically just been doing comic book work - an issue of ASM here, some GARGOYLES material there, some kiddie comic for Ape Entertainment I think, and so on.

So, the premise was to find a way of merging JLU and TEEN TITANS without imitating either (or imitating LOSH, which had barely been a memory in Kid's WB's final months). Thus, not only was the time needed to get a pilot on TV by Nov. 2010 hectic and rushed, WB trucked out a premise they'd had on a shelf for ages and basically worked with Weisman to iron it out. The idea to call it YJ wasn't so much due to the comic but due to the fact that TEEN TITANS and LEGION OF SUPER HEROES were already done. Then when they went into the comics, they plucked out some characters and themes here and there (such as Red Tornado being a major supporting character, having Secret guest star, hiring Peter David to write some episodes, etc.). Atop all this, DC was becoming DC Entertainment, Geoff Johns was getting a promotion and thus the company was in a shift with their own agendas - such as wanting to introduce a new Aqualad in two mediums around the same time. BRIGHTEST DAY was starting soon after 11/2010, after all.

So I think there was a lot of things in play in a short period of time (in TV production terms) as YJ was being made. Thus, a pilot barely ready on time, and major starts and stops between episodes because they're getting them ready for air almost as fast as they come in the mail. Not to say that any TV animated show isn't hectic or rushed in some degree for deadline, but this show may actually come close to imitating the experience of many DC Comics - "whoops, missed a deadline, no new issue for June/July/August etc." Very few networks would probably tolerate that forever, but Cartoon Network is WB's mutant underling, so it does.

Thus, my awareness of all that is likely why I have some sympathy for why the show is perhaps not as perfect as I imagined, that it is averaging a B or B+ instead of an A. Still, they are playing a dangerous game with the long gaps between episodes, especially given the fact that CN is a cable network whose ratings are already lower than Kid's WB used to be (a fact Dwayne McDuffie made good to cite when he would brag about how well "STATIC SHOCK" performed for 4 seasons) in light of the fact that it targets kids, who are savvy enough to catch that leaked 10th episode.

 

[FinalAvalanche]

Either someone's playing a prank or some new episode summaries have been leaked.

Episode 11"Romance"-Artemis is caught in a romance with Icicle, Jr., when he pulls off her mask looking at her face. And she starts going into a strapless dress in the color blue (nails, eyes, and lips colored) while going on a date with him, much to the dismay romance of their parents and the team.

Episode 12"Haunted"-Gentleman Ghost and Solomon Grundy make a living nightmare on the team.

Episode 13"Betrayal"-Robin grows suspicious of Artemis, ever since Aqualad mentioned their was a spy in the team.And he brings him and Kid Flash along to inspect her house searching for clues, and they realize her father is the Sportsmaster.

Episode 14"Injustice"-With Artemis in the ego of Tigress on the side of evil, her father, Sportsmaster wants her to be a better daughter work with Icicle, Jr., Solomon Grundy, Ragdoll, Wizard, Thinker and Gentleman Ghost as the team leader of the Injustice Society in order to break into the JSA headquarters to steal the Prometheous Key, which Wizard promised to return Johnny Sorrow.

Episode 15"Expandation"-When the JSA tell the Justice League that there are 7 members of the Injustice Society, Batman brings in Wonder Woman's sidekick, Wonder Girl and Beast Boy. And the teams are seperated into Robin and Wonder Girl vs Icicle, Jr. and Tigress, Miss Martian and Superboy vs Solomon Grundy and Gentleman Ghost, Aqualad, Beast Boy, and Kid Flash vs Johnny Sorrow, Wizard, and Thinker.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Ep11 sounds totally fake. That is no synopsis for an episode.

 

[Anubis]

Replace Icicle with Ms. Martian and it is a synopsis for some slash fiction.

 

[SpideyForPrez]

Those are totally fake. Not to mention poorly written.

 

[RisanF]

Under TSSM circumstances I'd trust a Weisman show to handle that properly. But in a show where some of the character development is, well...good but not great, I start to have some doubts.

Perhaps Weisman has had the rug pulled out from him so often in TV animation, from being dumped from "GARGOYLES" at the start of it's 3rd season to "TSSM" not getting another season, has shifted his style. Instead of assuming he'll have all the time in the world to get to where he is going, he is trying to get there as soon as possible because even when a network SAYS he has 26 or 36 episodes, it could change in an instant. And if so, it's understandable, but a shame. Megan and Superboy were thrust together almost as soon as we met them, and so now their relationship is starting to delve into "Scott & Jean" territory. I would hate to see Artemis and Kid-Flash in a romantic subplot that already borders cliche handled in a similar manner. Especially since if the show can actually pull off getting them together in a manner that doesn't seem heavy handed or contrived, that'll be a major win in it's column.

This bit about Weisman touches on something I've been wondering for some time; why is there so much talk about understanding Weisman's supposed motivations, or being a fan of him as a person? I read that blog post you linked to where he argues with a poster complaining about the "hello megan!" thing, and personally I don't like the way he interacts with fans, so I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to questions about what he might be thinking at any given moment. At this point, all that's left is to judge the show on its own merits, but I find the writing style abrupt, like characters and plot points are just thrown at me without making sure they're developed well. I had this problem with TSSM at times, so maybe it's Wiesman's writing style itself I'm taking issue with.

In any case, we've been through about nine episodes, but nothing's really happened yet. I think this is a really bad place to have a hiatus mid-season, since Young Justice hasn't secured itself as "must watch TV" yet (and if the show runner is defending it so vehemently on his blog, that's usually a sign that the plot's not going to change any time soon).

WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN also seemed like a show in which writers from X-MEN EVOLUTION finally had the chance to do everything Kid's WB wouldn't let them do in 2003, so they went hog wild. Wolverine was the central character at the expense of all others. The plot was very complicated and interesting, but the characters got lost in the shuffle. Cyclops seemed to exist merely to make Wolverine look better. Emma Frost existed to give Cyclops a romantic subplot that was unrequited with little reason for doing so. I probably put more effort into analyzing the show than some of the writers put into actually writing it. It was a show had plenty of time to focus an entire episode on Squidboy, but made including Colossus seem like open heart surgery. And in making Wolverine the perfect X-Man, they made him seem more boring and less edgy than usual. The season finale seemed to want to bring at least 3 subplots to a head at once, and one of them was really attached at the last moment, and it was awkward.

I was lurking around this board back when you and The-Vile-One were arguing about this. I mostly agree with you; the problem was that they sort of turned Wolverine into this alpha-male jock who is allowed to emasculate Cyclops even though the reverse would have never happened. The character had too much power for an anti-hero, and his few attempts at modesty ("I'm no hero") felt more like he was fishing for compliments from Prof. X, so he goes almost completely unchecked. At least Robin from TT is usually slapped down by his teammates whenever he gets too arrogant.

However, I felt more confident about WATXM potentially working out its flaws than I do about Young Justice doing the same. WATXM at least got off to a good start before the Wolverine-bias got truly out of hand.

 

[GamerSlyRatchet]

I read that blog post you linked to where he argues with a poster complaining about the "hello megan!" thing, and personally I don't like the way he interacts with fans, so I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to questions about what he might be thinking at any given moment.

If the questions were actually well-written and legitimate concerns, I'd agree. But when the majority of it are just childish, rude demands, baiting for spoilers, and "herp derp I hatez hello megan!!!" and thinly-veiled threats, I can understand why he's a bit more impatient with the fans. There hasn't been such rudeness and hostility in the "Ask Greg" since the section started.

And even then, those responses are far better and more professional than anything you can get from Marvel's current staff of hacks. I still cringe whenever I think of Tom Breevort's response as to why "Spectacular" was cancelled.

 

[Panthro]

At this rate we probably won't get any new episodes until 2013. And they might as well call it something else by then.

Wally didn't like Artemis because he saw her as an unwelcome replacement for Speedy, who he has been friends with longer.

I keep waiting for someone to point out to him that Speedy didn't even want the job and to just get over it already. And the Helmet of Fate/old man Kent Nelson needed to have it/his dialogue tweaked in a way that was still encouraging but less blatant.

"Kid, all I'm saying is sometimes you have to take a chance on something, or else you'll never know if it really works for you."


Megan/Superboy... yeah that's just not healthy. Then again, I thought Rick Hunter & Lisa Hayes in Robotech was unhealthy.

I always liked "THAT 70'S SHOW", although like many successful sitcoms, it was on at least 2 seasons too long in terms of overall quality.

Kind of makes you glad that most cartoons don't last as long as sitcoms, doesn't it? Unless of course it's "The Simpsons" which will just continue to run and run forever and all eternity even as they replace the original voice actors after they die and then replace the replacement voice actors.

I wouldn't mind seeing some more Flash villains (already got Capt. Cold in the pilot).

 

[Dread]

This bit about Weisman touches on something I've been wondering for some time; why is there so much talk about understanding Weisman's supposed motivations, or being a fan of him as a person? I read that blog post you linked to where he argues with a poster complaining about the "hello megan!" thing, and personally I don't like the way he interacts with fans, so I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to questions about what he might be thinking at any given moment. At this point, all that's left is to judge the show on its own merits, but I find the writing style abrupt, like characters and plot points are just thrown at me without making sure they're developed well. I had this problem with TSSM at times, so maybe it's Wiesman's writing style itself I'm taking issue with.

In any case, we've been through about nine episodes, but nothing's really happened yet. I think this is a really bad place to have a hiatus mid-season, since Young Justice hasn't secured itself as "must watch TV" yet (and if the show runner is defending it so vehemently on his blog, that's usually a sign that the plot's not going to change any time soon).

It is rare when a hiatus is a GOOD thing, but a worse one is one that wasn't planned from the start. This is the closest thing to an animated TV show imitating the comics and running months behind schedule due to production delays.

Greg Weisman comes with enough of a pedigree and enough prior successes under his belt that he usually gets more rope with a show in the eyes of fans, myself included, than other producers/story editors on other shows. Lord knows I have rarely given Craig Kyle or Chris Yost much benefit of the doubt on some of their stumbles - and that was after their solid work on "X-MEN EVOLUTION". Yost's redeemed himself with "A:EMH", though; this season, he has out-dueled Weisman in my opinion. It makes me remember that Yost did write a great deal of the "2k3" TMNT show, which I also vastly enjoyed (until the final 2 seasons).

I enjoyed "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" very much. I found very few faults with that show and few episodes I would have graded below a B+ or an A-. To a degree it may be Marvel/Spidey bias, but such things didn't keep me from finding "SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED" as terrible and "MTV SPIDER-MAN" as vastly average (at best). About the only thing that came "out of nowhere" to a degree was Eddie Brock's vendetta into Venom. The idea was that Brock was a darker fellow because he had less emotional support than Peter had (no Aunt May or pals like Gwen and Harry on a daily basis), but even this was rarely stated much. Weisman seemed to explain it a bit better in his message board than the episodes did. I still think Venom was handled very well in that show, but it was probably the most abrupt shift. The caveat being that Eddie Brock/Venom has often shifted emotionally in awkward ways based on trends and writing in prior cartoons and comics. Compared to THOSE, he was fine. He wasn't, say, someone who protected the innocent one moment and killed prison guards the next, as the comics often had him. About the only thing I really hated about "TSSM" was transforming Kraven the Hunter into a "tiger-man" visually.

Coming off "TSSM", though, "YJ" has been "whelming" to me. To use a baseball analogy, it is akin to a player who follows up a home run with a walk. It gets something positive accomplished, but not as well or as memorable.

I was lurking around this board back when you and The-Vile-One were arguing about this. I mostly agree with you; the problem was that they sort of turned Wolverine into this alpha-male jock who is allowed to emasculate Cyclops even though the reverse would have never happened. The character had too much power for an anti-hero, and his few attempts at modesty ("I'm no hero") felt more like he was fishing for compliments from Prof. X, so he goes almost completely unchecked. At least Robin from TT is usually slapped down by his teammates whenever he gets too arrogant.

However, I felt more confident about WATXM potentially working out its flaws than I do about Young Justice doing the same. WATXM at least got off to a good start before the Wolverine-bias got truly out of hand.

For the record, especially since Panthro mentioned it, I did finally comment on the "Unused Season 2 Art/Stories" topic here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=356649

I disagree with you a little bit about Robin in "TEEN TITANS". The moral there was often that Robin was always right in the end, even when he did something that was clearly wrong or fanatical to get there. You're right to a degree that the other Titans probably confronted him more often than the other X-Men confronted Logan in "W&TXM", but the end result was the same - a narrative that often bent over backwards in favor of one character over others. Even when Robin was threatening to pummel innocent civilians at a dock to try to find Slade, that proved right in the end. The irony is that having a character who employs the "the ends justify the means" approach is usually used to tell us that Magneto is an anti-hero at best.

To a degree, at least "YOUNG JUSTICE" hasn't played favorites like that to a degree, even if Megan and Superboy have seemed to benefit from focus since the pilot (and said pilot centered around Superboy to a degree). It isn't as bad on Super-worship as "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES" often was ("SUPERMAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS", basically), but Robin and Kid-Flash have faded into background noise on occasion since.

The irony is that I didn't usually care for Beast Boy on "TEEN TITANS" because he was often irritating and not as funny as he thought he was. Some of his more "serious" episodes were stronger, but they were often a minority. Yet Kid-Flash serves a similar role in "YJ" (the inefficient comic relief that everyone picks on) and he's probably my favorite of the cast. Part of me wonders which looks worse; a speedster who is always being hit and tripped, or someone who can transform into wild animals or a T-Rex being of less use than a guy with a bo-staff. I do think "YJ" is at least more consistent in tone than "TT", even if I think "TT" did a better job of distracting the viewer from it's flaws and mediocrity with a lot of fluff.

I've sought to keep W&TXM chat here to a minimum, since I am back to writing dissertations back at the above link.

If the questions were actually well-written and legitimate concerns, I'd agree. But when the majority of it are just childish, rude demands, baiting for spoilers, and "herp derp I hatez hello megan!!!" and thinly-veiled threats, I can understand why he's a bit more impatient with the fans. There hasn't been such rudeness and hostility in the "Ask Greg" since the section started.

And even then, those responses are far better and more professional than anything you can get from Marvel's current staff of hacks. I still cringe whenever I think of Tom Breevort's response as to why "Spectacular" was cancelled.

I do agree that some of the comments at Weisman's blog can be crass or rude. Since he started writing shows based on mainstream superheroes - and not the small cult audience that still loves "GARGOYLES" - that has increased his blog traffic and likely increased the amount of "trolls" who get there.

If anything, I think Weisman gave out TOO MUCH information about the show on his blog, and has had to backtrack.

The less said of Tom Brevoort's responses to fan criticism or questions, the better. Ever since being promoted a few times, he's shilled more baloney. I don't think he comes off as quite as arrogant and divisive as Joe Quesada and Dan DiDio can seem online (even if they are nicer or more charming live, as I can attest for the former), but he can be grating when he slings some bull.

At this rate we probably won't get any new episodes until 2013. And they might as well call it something else by then.

"YOUNG JUSTICE: DELAYED"?

"NEW YOUNG JUSTICE"?

"ULTIMATE ALL-STAR YOUNG JUSTICE CRISIS PRESENTS BLACKEST DAY NIGHT THINGIE?"

I keep waiting for someone to point out to him that Speedy didn't even want the job and to just get over it already. And the Helmet of Fate/old man Kent Nelson needed to have it/his dialogue tweaked in a way that was still encouraging but less blatant.

"Kid, all I'm saying is sometimes you have to take a chance on something, or else you'll never know if it really works for you."

The HELMET OF FATE would have been wiser had it said, "Never date someone who drives you nuts. It leads to hot dates but terrible marriages." Even bickering couples had to genuinely like each other once, without the aid of an AMNESIA RAY. I could get Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson to date if I had an AMNESIA RAY.

Speedy/Red Arrow is just a walking pile of angry angst right now. Every line he delivers is a growl. His attempts to prove he's so bad-ass sometimes have the opposite effect, that I roll my eyes when he goes into it. At least Robin in "TEEN TITANS", who usually did that, also had episodes where he was possessed by magic pie. Speedy/Red Arrow is reminding me too much of Hawkeye from "AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND" who was clearly written/acted like a poor man's Wolverine. And even Wolverine's Wolverine is getting old by now.

Part of me thinks that Kid-Flash was the unfortunate victim of not being able to have Donna Troy/Wonder Girl on the show until about half the season was written. Had she been a founder, the two of them likely would have connected well, although not to the sickening degree that Megaboy are. They had romantic tension in the TEEN TITANS comics, after all. While Donna was still an Amazon, she was usually more "hip" to some things than Wonder Woman was, after all. While she wouldn't fawn at Wally's sense of humor, she might appreciate it more than Artemis does. She's also usually more upbeat. Again, this was not Weisman's fault; there was some corporate mumbo that prevented anyone connected to Wonder Woman from being in the show unless they were part of the core cast. Quite how that means Wonder Girl couldn't be a founder is unknown, but, eh.

Megan/Superboy... yeah that's just not healthy. Then again, I thought Rick Hunter & Lisa Hayes in Robotech was unhealthy.

Never watched ROBOTECH.

Kind of makes you glad that most cartoons don't last as long as sitcoms, doesn't it? Unless of course it's "The Simpsons" which will just continue to run and run forever and all eternity even as they replace the original voice actors after they die and then replace the replacement voice actors.

I wouldn't mind seeing some more Flash villains (already got Capt. Cold in the pilot).

Some have argued that "FAMILY GUY" is past it's prime a bit too, although to which degree compared to "THE SIMPSONS" is debatable. I haven't watched either in years. But, yes, those shows are the extreme exceptions in TV animation and even they are merely in the "adult comedy" route. Very few TV animated shows have lasted beyond 5-6 seasons that were not adult sitcoms. The Ninja Turtles have actually had two long running series; their original show had 10 seasons, and their newer 21st century one had 7 - and both switched networks at least once. Even "BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES" was essentially over after about 5-6 seasons (and one network shift). Of course, a damn lot of live action shows don't survive 5 seasons these days...

In terms of Flash villains, we did get another in "YJ" besides Captain Cold. Abra Kadabra in "DENIAL" is a Flash villain. Wally even specifically mentions it when he debunks Kadabra's "magic" since his mentor Barry already proved he does it with "future technology". It was notable because while Kid-Flash in no way actually got to FIGHT his own mentor's enemy (I don't count a fight in which someone is possessed by a magic helmet; ANYONE Nabu possessed could have accomplished a similar feat), it was the only occurrence to date where he was proven right about something, and Artemis acknowledged it (with stunned surprise). It may not help that Abra Kadabra has only had a few animated TV appearances, and one of his first major ones was in "BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD" fighting Batman and Zatanna, so...the audience may not connect him to a Flash baddie. Jeff Bennet voiced him in both appearances.

Professor Zoom might make for an interesting appearance. The only way for a speedster hero to not have to be written as useless in a cartoon so he doesn't undo the plot in 6 seconds is to have a speedster villain, and he's Flash's biggest. His modern motivation of "doing evil to make heroes better" could actually work well in this show, and against youngsters.

In fairness, the Fragile Speedster TV Trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FragileSpeedster) is backed up in real life by the cheetah. It is the fastest land animal on earth, but it is also the weakest of the big cats. It cannot defend a kill from other predators long and it has difficulty subduing larger prey that is standing still - hence why it's speed is used as a weapon to stun/trip prey.

Still, you don't see Superman so hobbled on a team show and he's at least as unbeatable as a speedster should be. Aside for JUSTICE LEAGUE Season 1, of course. There he seemed to suck wind in every encounter.

 

[Kahoot]

I find it weird how many posts in this thread we get considering the lack of episodes. And more of the posts we do get are like mini essays.

 

[FinalAvalanche]

In a show about young heroes, I was expecting to see more young villains. So far there's only:

1) Icicle Junior-Ep 1
2) Terror Twins-Issue 0
3) Mammoth-Ep 4
4) Shimmer-Ep 4
5) Cheshire-Ep 6 and 10
6) Klarion the Witch Boy-Ep 7

 

[Charlie Boy]

I just skim all this **** for links in case another episode leaks.

 

[Dread]

In a show about young heroes, I was expecting to see more young villains. So far there's only:

1) Icicle Junior-Ep 1
2) Terror Twins-Issue 0
3) Mammoth-Ep 4
4) Shimmer-Ep 4
5) Cheshire-Ep 6 and 10
6) Klarion the Witch Boy-Ep 7

This is usually because older villains are more powerful or well known. Often because comic companies rely on them and have difficulty launching villains who are newer or younger. Also, because teenagers fighting adults makes the adolescence metaphor work better.

There is a theory that if teenage heroes only fight teenage villains, they're paper tigers who can't handle "real" threats.

Of course, "X-MEN EVOLUTION" found success in a cast of teenage villains that got fair screen time.

 

[GamerSlyRatchet]

In a show about young heroes, I was expecting to see more young villains. So far there's only:

1) Icicle Junior-Ep 1
2) Terror Twins-Issue 0
3) Mammoth-Ep 4
4) Shimmer-Ep 4
5) Cheshire-Ep 6 and 10
6) Klarion the Witch Boy-Ep 7

Considering Weisman once mentioned an "anti-Young Justice" being formed, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these guys are members of it.

 

[Panthro]

"YOUNG JUSTICE: DELAYED"?

"NEW YOUNG JUSTICE"?

"ULTIMATE ALL-STAR YOUNG JUSTICE CRISIS PRESENTS BLACKEST DAY NIGHT THINGIE?"

Sorry, bad attempt at humor on my part.

The HELMET OF FATE would have been wiser had it said, "Never date someone who drives you nuts. It leads to hot dates but terrible marriages." Even bickering couples had to genuinely like each other once, without the aid of an AMNESIA RAY. I could get Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson to date if I had an AMNESIA RAY.

True but it seems we're stuck with that subplot now, unpleasant as it is.

Speedy/Red Arrow is just a walking pile of angry angst right now. Every line he delivers is a growl. His attempts to prove he's so bad-ass sometimes have the opposite effect, that I roll my eyes when he goes into it. At least Robin in "TEEN TITANS", who usually did that, also had episodes where he was possessed by magic pie. Speedy/Red Arrow is reminding me too much of Hawkeye from "AVENGERS: UNITED THEY STAND" who was clearly written/acted like a poor man's Wolverine. And even Wolverine's Wolverine is getting old by now.

Never watched "Avengers: United They Stand". From what I've heard it sounds like I didn't miss much.

Part of me thinks that Kid-Flash was the unfortunate victim of not being able to have Donna Troy/Wonder Girl on the show until about half the season was written. Had she been a founder, the two of them likely would have connected well, although not to the sickening degree that Megaboy are. They had romantic tension in the TEEN TITANS comics, after all. While Donna was still an Amazon, she was usually more "hip" to some things than Wonder Woman was, after all. While she wouldn't fawn at Wally's sense of humor, she might appreciate it more than Artemis does. She's also usually more upbeat. Again, this was not Weisman's fault; there was some corporate mumbo that prevented anyone connected to Wonder Woman from being in the show unless they were part of the core cast. Quite how that means Wonder Girl couldn't be a founder is unknown, but, eh.

Poor kid just doesn't have a lot of luck, does he?

Never watched ROBOTECH.

I'll try to keep it short then: series protagonist Rick Hunter, one of the fighter pilots who protects the transforming SDF-1 space fortress ship thing in the future (of 2009!) spends most of his spare time in the series pining for Lynn Min Mei, a pop singer he once rescued and spent a few days trapped with in an unused portion of the ship; he obsesses over her so much - despite the fact that she rarely spends time with him - that he's oblivious to the fact that his commanding officer Lisa Hayes, with whom he did not start off on the right foot, is seriously infatuated with him (why is anyone's guess considering that he's an idiot). Towards the end of the series lonely, heartsick Lisa becomes so frustrated with Rick & his Min Mei fixation that she almost suffers a nervous breakdown (with one attempt at getting drunk on Christmas) and even tries to quit her high ranking military job just to get away from him. It is not until the very last episode (of the Macross portion anyway) that Rick finally realizes he should be with Lisa, who understands his commitment to the military while Min Mei doesn't - and all Lisa had to do to get him to realize that was pour her heart out to him on his doorstep and then nearly get herself killed during an alien invasion (sound familiar? ).

Sorry for the detour, it's just all this talk of dysfunctional relationships reminded me of that triangle (not the only questionable romantic subplot in that series either).

My apologies to any Robotech/Macross fans who were offended that I used the characters English Harmony-Gold names instead of their original Japanese names (yes, it was one of THOSE dubs).

Some have argued that "FAMILY GUY" is past it's prime a bit too, although to which degree compared to "THE SIMPSONS" is debatable. I haven't watched either in years. But, yes, those shows are the extreme exceptions in TV animation and even they are merely in the "adult comedy" route. Very few TV animated shows have lasted beyond 5-6 seasons that were not adult sitcoms.

I haven't watched the Simpsons since the late 90s. I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Family Guy all the way through, just bits & pieces.

The Ninja Turtles have actually had two long running series; their original show had 10 seasons, and their newer 21st century one had 7 - and both switched networks at least once. Even "BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES" was essentially over after about 5-6 seasons (and one network shift). Of course, a damn lot of live action shows don't survive 5 seasons these days...

I never did get around to seeing the 21st century TMNT series. I'll have to look that up some time.

In terms of Flash villains, we did get another in "YJ" besides Captain Cold. Abra Kadabra in "DENIAL" is a Flash villain. Wally even specifically mentions it when he debunks Kadabra's "magic" since his mentor Barry already proved he does it with "future technology". It was notable because while Kid-Flash in no way actually got to FIGHT his own mentor's enemy (I don't count a fight in which someone is possessed by a magic helmet; ANYONE Nabu possessed could have accomplished a similar feat), it was the only occurrence to date where he was proven right about something, and Artemis acknowledged it (with stunned surprise). It may not help that Abra Kadabra has only had a few animated TV appearances, and one of his first major ones was in "BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD" fighting Batman and Zatanna, so...the audience may not connect him to a Flash baddie. Jeff Bennet voiced him in both appearances.

My bad. I keep forgetting about him when I think of the Flash rogues gallery. Captains Cold & Boomerang, Mirror Master, Reverse Flash and even Trickster (Mark Hamill FTW) tend to spring to mind first.

Professor Zoom might make for an interesting appearance. The only way for a speedster hero to not have to be written as useless in a cartoon so he doesn't undo the plot in 6 seconds is to have a speedster villain, and he's Flash's biggest. His modern motivation of "doing evil to make heroes better" could actually work well in this show, and against youngsters.

Zoom would certainly be interesting; I wouldn't mind seeing Mirror Master either. Or in general an episode where Wally gets to step up his game and not be left in the dust tripping over marbles while Robin figures out [insert Flash Rogue Gallery villain here]'s plans & then conjures out a solution between himself and Aqualad.

In fairness, the Fragile Speedster TV Trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FragileSpeedster) is backed up in real life by the cheetah. It is the fastest land animal on earth, but it is also the weakest of the big cats. It cannot defend a kill from other predators long and it has difficulty subduing larger prey that is standing still - hence why it's speed is used as a weapon to stun/trip prey.

Still, you don't see Superman so hobbled on a team show and he's at least as unbeatable as a speedster should be. Aside for JUSTICE LEAGUE Season 1, of course. There he seemed to suck wind in every encounter.

Supes had a few hobbled fights on his own show, some of which were probably due to censorship issues (like how he wasn't allowed to actually hit any of the Furies or Granny Goodness during his rampage on Apokolips in the final episode - despite the fact that they were all trying to kill him).

 

[GamerSlyRatchet]

Greg Weisman updates the production schedule and addresses Internet rumors:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/rambles.php

 

[Primal Slayer]

Not surprised by the probable Sept. air date. But by then we shouldnt get any more reruns except for maybe a 1-2month break before season2 begins. But when that time comes CN better promote the HELL out of YJs return because it has become nothing but a distant memory at this point in time.

And if CN plans on ordering more S2 episodes I hope they let them know soon (around October) so we dont go through this again.

 

[Longshot777]

You see I knew it!!


It's all CN's fault!!!


I predict Nov. for new episodes because CN just don't give a hoot like always.

 

[Dread]

True but it seems we're stuck with that subplot now, unpleasant as it is.

It's a tired cliche. Unpleasant is what some DC fans consider Bruce Wayne dating Barbara Gordon from the DCAU.

Never watched "Avengers: United They Stand". From what I've heard it sounds like I didn't miss much.

You did miss something...an atrociously bad cartoon. It made "SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED" look edgy and original in comparison. It wasn't so bad that it was good...it was just bad.

Poor kid just doesn't have a lot of luck, does he?

Hey, Wonder Girl is coming at some point, right?

I'll try to keep it short then: series protagonist Rick Hunter, one of the fighter pilots who protects the transforming SDF-1 space fortress ship thing in the future (of 2009!) spends most of his spare time in the series pining for Lynn Min Mei, a pop singer he once rescued and spent a few days trapped with in an unused portion of the ship; he obsesses over her so much - despite the fact that she rarely spends time with him - that he's oblivious to the fact that his commanding officer Lisa Hayes, with whom he did not start off on the right foot, is seriously infatuated with him (why is anyone's guess considering that he's an idiot). Towards the end of the series lonely, heartsick Lisa becomes so frustrated with Rick & his Min Mei fixation that she almost suffers a nervous breakdown (with one attempt at getting drunk on Christmas) and even tries to quit her high ranking military job just to get away from him. It is not until the very last episode (of the Macross portion anyway) that Rick finally realizes he should be with Lisa, who understands his commitment to the military while Min Mei doesn't - and all Lisa had to do to get him to realize that was pour her heart out to him on his doorstep and then nearly get herself killed during an alien invasion (sound familiar? ).

Sorry for the detour, it's just all this talk of dysfunctional relationships reminded me of that triangle (not the only questionable romantic subplot in that series either).

My apologies to any Robotech/Macross fans who were offended that I used the characters English Harmony-Gold names instead of their original Japanese names (yes, it was one of THOSE dubs).

Thanks for the history. ROBOTECH's prime in America was about 1985, and about the only broadcast anime I was aware of at the time was "VOLTRON". Those were the years I was watching "HE-MAN", "SMURFS", "INSPECTOR GADGET", "TRANSFORMERS", and "SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS". Of course, in 1985, I was 3.

It does sound familiar. But a few cartoons have done something like that. In the second season of the 90's "IRON MAN", all Iron Man needed to realize he loved Julia Carpenter (failing to notice her loyalty and devotion to him despite his every self-destructive act) was almost getting killed by the Hulk and having to save the world from the Mandarin.

Dysfunctional relationships have been ore for stories since time began. The riddle is always the execution.

I never did get around to seeing the 21st century TMNT series. I'll have to look that up some time.

It's excellent, at least the first 5 seasons. The 6th jumped the shark and it never recovered. Sadly, they've been out of print since 2008, and Season 3's tenure on DVD was a mess. I keep hoping the purchase of the franchise by Viacom will mean better DVD re-releases, such as by Shout Factory, but nothing has happened yet.

My bad. I keep forgetting about him when I think of the Flash rogues gallery. Captains Cold & Boomerang, Mirror Master, Reverse Flash and even Trickster (Mark Hamill FTW) tend to spring to mind first.

Abra's not a big villain, but he is a Flash villain. Technically, so is Grodd, but he's been mistaken for either a Batman villain or a general Justice League villain thanks to TV appearances.

Zoom would certainly be interesting; I wouldn't mind seeing Mirror Master either. Or in general an episode where Wally gets to step up his game and not be left in the dust tripping over marbles while Robin figures out [insert Flash Rogue Gallery villain here]'s plans & then conjures out a solution between himself and Aqualad.

Despite it all I do genuinely believe that will happen at some point. I just feel it would be shallow if Artemis suddenly wanted to ride him immediately afterward.

Sometimes an awkward romance doesn't merely effect the male character, but the female one too. A major downside to "WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN" showcasing Cyclops as being so broken and selfish was that it made Frost look worse for attaching to him despite it all. Artemis may be a few things, but I don't see her as shallow. It should take more than a guy scoring a touchdown to impress her, metaphorically speaking.

Supes had a few hobbled fights on his own show, some of which were probably due to censorship issues (like how he wasn't allowed to actually hit any of the Furies or Granny Goodness during his rampage on Apokolips in the final episode - despite the fact that they were all trying to kill him).

Censors balk at violence against women on screen, especially in animation. And while the intentions are valid, it can create a double standard, or just seem silly in superhero animation. Wonder Woman can shrug off having a building fall on her, but showing her get hit in the face by, say, Giganta (and giving one in return) is taboo? In fairness, Bruce Timm productions have often pushed the envelope in that regard. Lauren Montgomery, who has directed a few of DTV's, has also followed suit. Just about every one she had a role in directing, such as "JUSTICE LEAGUE: CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS" or "WONDER WOMAN" or "SUPERMAN/BATMAN: APOCALYPSE" usually had some battles between female characters that were just as rough as with the men - sometimes more so.

Superman's power levels did wax and wane depending on drama in his old show. To a degree that has always happened in animation, starting with his original film cartoons in the 1940's - in some shorts he is bulletproof, while in others he can be fazed by tear gas.

Bruce Timm noted that "JUSTICE LEAGUE" season 1 had a learning curve and their biggest problem was power levels - finding ways for neither Superman or Flash to instantly save the day. Thus, they usually under powered them. With Superman, they were used to his own show when a baddie would topple him, and he'd get up and avenge himself. With JL, it was a group show so another character did it for him. To a degree Timm seems to have often struggled with the Flash.

Greg Weisman updates the production schedule and addresses Internet rumors:

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/rambles.php

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing it.

I'm with Weisman about the rumor that the show is being tweaked due to Internet rumors/criticism. That's one that's counter to just about every fact of TV animation, and TV period. Utterly ridiculous.

He has a fair point about not being the king of this show, and that it is shaped by other writers as well as producers. He is the biggest name in the eyes of the fans, especially on his own website, however, which is where the idea that he's the master of it comes into play. After all, Weisman keeps getting hired to be story editor because of his past work. Naturally, he is a freelancer so he sometimes has other gigs, such as just writing episodes for series here and there. He even once handled an English translation of the anime 3X3 EYES, I believe, and seemed to get a few notable voice actors for it.

That said, it is interesting that "TSSM" was the show that was rushed, and "YJ" had more time in comparison. The absence of Victor Cook could be a factor. I do wonder what effect the shift of DC Entertainment had on the show. After all, if Geoff Johns was perfect at alternate media decisions, "GREEN LANTERN" would have earned $600 million dollars already. The biggest difference could be that there is a big difference between a cartoon about a solo hero with an extended supporting cast of "normals" versus a team show in a universe full of metahumans and fantastic things. To a degree every show relies on archetypes and stereotypes. Just for some reason to me, while "TSSM" seemed to make excellence look easy, "YJ" seems content at being "good" rather than great.

For the lazy, here is a recap of the episode progress, since not everyone will link:

- Episodes 10-15 are all ready for air. Weisman acknowledges that CN leaked episode 10 on their website.
- Episodes 16-17 are very close to being ready for air, and likely will be within this month.
- Episodes 18-19 are in stages of post-production and may need a few weeks.
- Episodes 20-23 are being animated in Korea and may be a few months before air.
- Episodes 24-26 have yet to be animated, which seems baffling unless the studio is speedy. It normally can take many months for them to be animated and ready for air, and all of Season 1 has to be finished by March. That is the start date for Season 2 which seems iron clad. Season 2's episode order is still only 10 episodes. He and his fellow producers/writers have begun making plans beyond that, though. Unless TV animation is much cheaper/faster than DTV animation, I don't see how any episode of Season 2 is ready by March if they are yet to be animated, but then again I'm not a pro, and WB are good at this stuff.
- CN may not officially air new episodes until September, which is their call and not Weisman's. He acknowledges that it's killed momentum, but he hopes that in exchange, when episodes do start airing again, there will be few breaks.
- The fact that Weisman has to go on an entire paragraph rant defending Megan's catch phrase probably speaks for itself. The staff likes it, of course. People loved "COWABUNGA!" in the 80's too. Of course, how often does Bart Simpson say HIS catch phrases anymore?

My guess is CN aired 7 episodes in a row at the start of the year and likely wants to wait until at least another 7 are ready again. Right now, only 6 episodes are ready for air. Perhaps they decided that airing blocks of 3-4 episodes and then gaps didn't work a few years ago.

The lack of new episodes, though, creates an Internet vacuum of anxious, impatient fans and that's how rumor mills start and sustain. But, I wouldn't expect the geniuses at CN to know or care about that.

 

[Hound55]

Not talking specifically about this show, but roughly how long does each stage of production generally for an animated series?

 

[Grommers]

That leak had to be intentional...to give some hope to fans. The more I think about it, the more brilliant I think it is to do something like that.


Sept is far away.....really sucks because I don't want to have go back and watch the episodes I have watched just because they didn't have there act together in the first place. (I need a refresher.)

 

[Dread]

Not talking specifically about this show, but roughly how long does each stage of production generally for an animated series?

Some older blog posts have Weisman go into it, but it can vary between studios and the animation quality. If you don't care about animation quality and use a cheap studio - such as the 90's X-MEN series did with AKOM - then episodes may be ready in a few months. For the Marvel/Lion's Gate animated DTV's, Craig Kyle and Chris Yost claimed it took on average 12-18 months for animation for those to be ready, although the budget is higher than it is for TV animation. Usually when I try to guess how long it takes to produce an animated TV episode, it's roughly a year from start to finish. Naturally, there are tricks and whatnot. Japanese anime, for instance, often use reoccurring flashbacks to save time and cost - anyone who has watched NARUTO is aware of that. Scenes without characters talking usually go faster than motionless scenes, and pan-shots can be done quickly depending on how much is moving within it. Typically for talking scenes, only the mouth & eyes have to be animated, and the rest can be a still image for X number of frames; FILMATION in the 70's and 80's was infamous for this.

If episodes 20-23 are not animated yet, much less season 2, I wonder how it will all be ready in 7-8 months. But, I am no expert. Maybe TV episodes take half as long as DTV animation, especially since they're about 19-20 minutes and not feature length.

That leak had to be intentional...to give some hope to fans. The more I think about it, the more brilliant I think it is to do something like that.

Sept is far away.....really sucks because I don't want to have go back and watch the episodes I have watched just because they didn't have there act together in the first place. (I need a refresher.)

Leaking an episode before air on CARTOON NETWORK'S OWN WEBSITE is a major deal. If it wasn't intentional, then someone in the website department was either demoted, fired, or reprimanded. However, given the gap, it is very probable that it was a viral strategy. After all, many companies are realizing they can't fight illegal downloads, so they don't try and eventually release the episodes on their own websites anyway - just after the TV air date.

 

[Sarcastic Fan]

Some older blog posts have Weisman go into it, but it can vary between studios and the animation quality. If you don't care about animation quality and use a cheap studio - such as the 90's X-MEN series did with AKOM - then episodes may be ready in a few months. For the Marvel/Lion's Gate animated DTV's, Craig Kyle and Chris Yost claimed it took on average 12-18 months for animation for those to be ready, although the budget is higher than it is for TV animation. Usually when I try to guess how long it takes to produce an animated TV episode, it's roughly a year from start to finish. Naturally, there are tricks and whatnot. Japanese anime, for instance, often use reoccurring flashbacks to save time and cost - anyone who has watched NARUTO is aware of that. Scenes without characters talking usually go faster than motionless scenes, and pan-shots can be done quickly depending on how much is moving within it. Typically for talking scenes, only the mouth & eyes have to be animated, and the rest can be a still image for X number of frames; FILMATION in the 70's and 80's was infamous for this.

Haven't posted here in a while. But the average episode of an animated show takes ten months to produce. From start to finish. This is, of course, the entire process. Not just animation.