Young Justice Cartoon - Part 6

[Dread]

Except that only the actually essential, NEEDED content is what makes the cut to the show. While I'm enjoying the comic so far, and I do wish some stories would have been adapted to the show, it really doesn't add anything the show didn't do. Most of the plots don't really play an important part in the main series's story, and all the extra info provided in the comic is either addressed in the show itself later or is just trivia knowledge.

All the discussed origins of the teammates are discussed, Artemis's meeting with Batman and Green Arrow was discussed, characters like the Terror Twins, Joker, Atomic Skull, Cat Grant, etc. all made their way into the show. Besides, do we really NEED to see the origin of Clayface? Do we NEED to see the Team having a campfire? Do we NEED to see a Captain Atom plot that, while interesting, is almost filler-ish in the grand scheme of things?

The closest I could say that the comic covered something important that the show didn't was Ocean Master, due to his unceremonious dismissal, and even then, his plot didn't factor into any of the schemes of the Light like the other villains' appearances did.

You are basically complaining that the show is not including what would be the equivalent of the "Deleted Scenes" of a DVD.

Since I don't get nor plan to get the comic, I'll have to take your word for it. It does sound that certain things were embellished there and with the time-skip lasting for 5 years, that is a LOT of material to cover. The comic could spend years covering it.

 

[nygma619]

My thoughts? Frustration.

Greg Weisman's not a slave of the toy companies and doesn't make shows to sell toys. Yet he's doing a very good job of, by sheer coincidence or accident, making a show which via notable omitted material encourages people to buy a comic book.

Again what exactly is wrong with giving fans incentive for tracking down the comic? Why should they stop themselves from doing this just because Joe pinch penny doesn't want to fork over less money than they spend on cigarettes?

One thing "A:EMH" also gets right is not making a viewer who doesn't feel like investing $36 a year on supplemental material feel like they've only gotten half the story.

In other words that viewer WANT'S to get all the story they can, but they don't want it bad enough that they're willing to pay money for it. Also who says you have to buy EVERY comic? Just read the synopsis, then decide if it's worth picking up.
Again how do you know if you've only gotten half the story if you've never read it? Going by hearsay doesn't really count. Since those claims could be grossly exaggerated, like someone on a website who claims a speedster is getting mistreated when in reality, it's based on his own skewed perceptions, like blowing things like a character tripping WAY out of proportion and deciding that them doing that once in a while makes them incompetent.

The comic makes editing sessions where content is trimmed from TV episodes too easy, and I think too much solvent material was dumped to the floppies in this manner. I sometimes imagine the show without the comic as a back up for lost material being one where at least more struggle went into script editing sessions.

Or perhaps the producers have so much stories that they want to tell, that they feel like taking advantage with other avenues.

Besides Greg Weisman got a 2nd chance with keeping Gargoyles alive by giving those fans that followed the show, the chance to see what would've happened after Hunter's Moon, Part 3 ended with that comic. I don't see how this is any different, aside from a show running simultaneously.

 

[Dread]

Again what exactly is wrong with giving fans incentive for tracking down the comic? Why should they stop themselves from doing this just because Joe pinch penny doesn't want to fork over less money than they spend on cigarettes?

Now you're the one making assumptions. I don't smoke.

In other words that viewer WANT'S to get all the story they can, but they don't want it bad enough that they're willing to pay money for it. Also who says you have to buy EVERY comic? Just read the synopsis, then decide if it's worth picking up.
Again how do you know if you've only gotten half the story if you've never read it? Going by hearsay doesn't really count. Since those claims could be grossly exaggerated, like someone on a website who claims a speedster is getting mistreated when in reality, it's based on his own skewed perceptions, like blowing things like a character tripping WAY out of proportion and deciding that them doing that once in a while makes them incompetent.

I told you, it's been reported on various forums what is in some of the comics and some of it is stuff that should have made it to TV.

Having the option is fine; where I take issue is when the comic is so canonical that it leaves viewers who don't get it for whatever reason feeling as they've missed some details. I don't think any TV show is worth having to buy a supplemental comic. I loved "TSSM" but I wouldn't have bought a canonical comic. I like "A:EMH" and I didn't buy the 4 issue mini Marvel sold which basically explained where Crimson Dynamo came from. So it isn't just a thing I have against YJ.

Or perhaps the producers have so much stories that they want to tell, that they feel like taking advantage with other avenues.

Besides Greg Weisman got a 2nd chance with keeping Gargoyles alive by giving those fans that followed the show, the chance to see what would've happened after Hunter's Moon, Part 3 ended with that comic. I don't see how this is any different, aside from a show running simultaneously.

"GARGOYLES" is different. That was a show yanked from Weisman while it was still on the air and then canceled; continuing it afterwards with a comic is fine since that's the only medium it exists.

 

[Grommers]

If you want more of the story, buy the comic, they can choose how to do business, especially with entertainment, if anything I wish more businesses allowed you to pick and choose, so you can build and decide on your own, do I really care about the characters enough or not? If you are content with the story the TV show has, than don't buy the comic. You have that option, it's not forced, there isn't any major plotholes that are filled reading it. It's extra character development.

I personally purchase them on my ipad, and read it from there. There's just more character depth and some one liners from the show you'd only understand from reading the comic. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

 

[nygma619]

You DO realize that being faster than Wally and being able to vibrate through objects is a big deal, right?

Power wise? Yes. Character wise? No.

You have to acknowledge a difference there.

Actually I don't, since I don't think it was a big deal. Unless your paranoid and think battle performance down to the tinniest detail=character. Which I don't.

I'm sure it is. I simply despair that they seem to believe it's more in character for him to not usually be presented quite as effectively as many of his peers and then outdone by a new cast member upon their first episode.

Apparently you didn't see my post about Artemis needing help to beat named opponents. If you look at it that way, she's not as effective as the others, but I don't.

"DIVIDED WE FALL" and "COLDHEARTED" couldn't be more apart if they tried. While "JUSTICE LEAGUE/JLU" was not quite as serial a show as "YOUNG JUSTICE" or any Weisman production, "DWF" was the culmination and climax to a loose subplot which had trickled throughout the show for two seasons. "A BETTER WORLD" introduced parallel-earth Leaguers who became corrupt tyrants after murdering president Lex Luthor - and it was revealed that Luthor killing the Flash was what triggered that descent. While "our" League defeated their counterparts with Luthor's help, there had been some drama about them also dipping a toe towards that path of destruction. Actions such as "our" Luthor seeming running for president and manipulating Superman carried that along. While it wasn't the clearest thing ever, the Flash was usually depicted as being less mature than the other heroes (especially Batman) and often struggling to be seen as iconic as the others; he sat out most of the first season of "JLU" after all. There is a moment in "SECRET SOCIETY" where Flash frees J'Onn from Killer Frost's ice and makes a joke, and J'Onn replies, "No jokes, just GET HER" as a sign that Wally's own demeanor was often what held him back and he had to focus. "DIVIDED WE FALL" provided that moment where Luthor - merged with Brainiac - sought to take over the world and the Flash was ultimately the only one of the League left to oppose him. "Lexiac" severely underestimates Flash, while Flash has to cast aside his own insecurities and man up.

"COLDHEARTED" was far less vital in comparison to the crux of an entire season as "DIVIDED WE FALL" was to "JLU". It was a very good episode and while it did also touch on the theme of Wally having to man up a bit, in the end it was very much about a hero learning a Very Special Lesson to save a child. Count Vertigo was nowhere near as vital a villain to the subplot as Luthor was in "JLU". And this is even without touching once on power levels.

After that moment in JLU, how did Wally's character evolve from that?

Cheshire made it look easy in "INFILTRATOR".

Yet she couldn't repeat that success in follow up encounters. That says more about Chesire, than it does about Wally.

The problem is that's all Wally is good for - small moments.

I don't think those are small moments, you seem to because they're not power or performance moments. Saving an entire country on your own (a feat no other team member has accomplished) is far from a small moment.

'm not content with his only relevant role in the entire series being Artemis' boyfriend.

I certainly don't think that's his only relevant role. He's also been Dick Grayson's best friend, a guy who can explain something purely scientific in a pinch when you need him to, someone who can also make you laugh, and a guy who's NEVER had a dull moment (something I can't say for the rest of the team). You seem to because you haven't gotten your power moments.

So in the end there is nothing, no turn, no character demotion, nothing this show could do which would disappoint you because you trust Greg to have done it for an awfully good reason.

I never said that, but after watching the shows he started AND finished I have 90% faith that he knows what he's doing.

Besides my negatives I listed on YJ, in SSM I felt Peter Parker's dilemma with Eddie Brock felt too impersonal for my liking due to them making Venom's appearances about something else (first time it was more about the symbiote, second time it was about Spidey's ID crisis), none of it was ever about their friendship. Not to mention it's hard to feel like it was getting under Pete's skin when he's battling his bro AND cracking quips ("Now shouldn't you all had seen that coming?"), also both those arc's ended with big developments for Eddie, but we NEVER got to see how Pete or his friends would react to his fall from grace. To be fair though they might've been saving the melodrama for an arc dealing with their father's both being scientists and a possible project they might've worked on. But what I got in both arc's was pretty underwhelming for something that involved Pete's oldest friend.

Many times "YJ" seems akin to a robot programmed to perform a dance. It can perform the moves, the steps, the turns with precision no human could match, but lacking a soul to really make you feel the motion as something more than simply the execution of a lot of planning. This season especially is so keen on throwing as many characters at us as possible that few of them are leaving the greatest impressions for long.

YJ has shown emotion, you just dismiss that because it doesn't give you everything you want.

I do hate to burst your bubble, but Wally/Artemis have not been "focused" on this season. Within 6 episodes they have appeared together once, for roughly a minute. In contrast, the LACK of a relationship between Conner and Megan got far more airtime in 2-3 episodes already.

Weisman said a couple of the relationships WOULD be a big deal during the season, and we've gotten a couple of them (Supermartian & Spitfire). Do the math.

Here's a challenge to you Dread, if your truly unsatisfied with Wally West on this show, why don't you go to s8, and ask greg weisman why wally seems so incompetent & underwhelming on this show, and detail ALL your problems you have with him. Maybe he might give you an answer that helps you understand the choices they've made. I did the same thing when I asked about Tombstone on Spectacular Spider-Man and I was satisfied. What have you got to lose?

 

[Dread]

If you want more of the story, buy the comic, they can choose how to do business, especially with entertainment, if anything I wish more businesses allowed you to pick and choose, so you can build and decide on your own, do I really care about the characters enough or not? If you are content with the story the TV show has, than don't buy the comic. You have that option, it's not forced, there isn't any major plotholes that are filled reading it. It's extra character development.

I personally purchase them on my ipad, and read it from there. There's just more character depth and some one liners from the show you'd only understand from reading the comic. Insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Digital is probably the easier way to catch up on previous issues that were missed, which is one advantage of the format once DC decided to use it properly.

I don't have an iPad or an i-anything. If I even desired to catch up on it, it would require heading off to Manhattan to buy the trade collection and hunting down back-issues since shops order it like a kiddie book, i.e. ordering maybe 1-5 copies at most. I did consider it after about six issues and figured it wasn't worth the financial or time effort.

The option is nice, you have a point there. Mine is that I feel character development has often been sacrificed for the plot in the TV show (even more so in the second season than the first), which makes the comics seem less "insignificant" than they should be because of it. Yet I feel that a show which leaves that stuff within a $3 monthly side pamphlet is really little different than a show which encourages kids to buy toys, although others disagree.

Power wise? Yes. Character wise? No.

That is debatable since in the comics, the idea that he'd never measure up to Barry and would always be in his shadow was a major theme with Wally, even after he'd become the Flash. It turned out many of his limitations were self-imposed due to this anxiety.

Which would be fine in "YOUNG JUSTICE" if "BLOODTIES" or some other episode introduced that theme, but it didn't; instead it chose to introduce Impulse and his own subplot. Any pressure Wally does or doesn't feel about the legacy I can safely say was never once shown or even hinted at in the TV episodes. Instead Wally West is someone who happens to have been Flash's sidekick who went on to join a team with some buddies, nab a girlfriend and then retire with her. While "BLOODTIES" did at least showcase that the mantle of Flash passed from Jay to Barry at some point, Wally didn't seem to have much desire for that since he did retire and take himself out of that equation.

My point? If the lack of a certain skill set isn't at least utilized for ore for a character arc like it was in the source material, I'd at least like to see the skill set there. Otherwise what is the point? We have Green Lanterns who all have the exact same power and everyone but me seems to love that franchise. Clearly with Impulse, the skill set itself wasn't the problem as the episode makes a huge deal of stressing why Impulse is better for having it.

Apparently you didn't see my post about Artemis needing help to beat named opponents. If you look at it that way, she's not as effective as the others, but I don't.

I didn't since it wasn't addressed to me. I did go back and look at it. I found it amusing that you've dismissed my statements that Wally's science exposition is something any other character could do if the plot demanded it, yet you dismissed Artemis' defeat of Harm in similar fashion to attempt to make a point. You cannot dismiss a point when I make it while attempt to utilize the same logic which you previously dismissed; that's having it both ways.

I mean, if I wanted to grasp at desperate straws, the only reason Artemis even had an arrow in "HOME FRONT" to use at the end is because Wally kept it as a one of his souvenirs from "SCHOOLED". The difference is "HOME FRONT" used presentation to showcase the skill needed for Artemis to time the arrow shot when she did. That's really my point; it isn't the power or the skill level per say, it's how you showcase or present it.

I also think we can all agree that none of the founding cast were allowed to be as impressive as Superboy or Megan. You could easily rattle off named villains they've beaten. Robin and Aqualad come in at close seconds. Ideally a team show should have this be equal so it doesn't seem as apparent that certain characters are better in missions than others. "A:EMH" does this far better, with the arguable exception of Wasp (a point I did address in my review of "BEHOLD...THE VISION"). A team show ideally isn't supposed to be about one or two star characters unless they're in the title, and thus the best way to write it is in a manner where regardless of which ones are your favorites, they all manage to save the day an equal amount of the time. That isn't easy to do, and if it were, anyone could produce a team show.

After that moment in JLU, how did Wally's character evolve from that?

I addressed your dismissal of "DIVIDED WE FALL" as a stand alone episode which didn't have any baring on the seasonal arc, which was a criticism I had of "COLDHEARTED". I went on a lengthy explanation about how "DWF" provided a climax to a loose subplot carried over two entire seasons of material and your response has been to shift the measures of comparison from seasonal storylines to character development. That's akin to asking someone to hit a home run, they do so, and then you groan and say, "But I meant hit a triple."

I don't feel seasonal subplots and character development, or character evolution and character competence/presentations, need to be so mutually exclusive. My biggest concern with how Wally is usually presented that is that compared to other characters this seems to be so, and for the life of me I can't figure why. Why is it so much easier to handle Superman or Superboy in a team show, a hero who literally has the combined powers of 5-6 lessor superheroes, yet Wally's so damn difficult? Again, this isn't a problem entirely with "YJ", but one which "YJ" unfortunately has not managed to "evolve" from.

Yet she couldn't repeat that success. That says more about Chesire, than it does about Wally.

Cheshire didn't litter the ground with marbles again or happen to be near a pool is what happened.

I don't think those are small moments, you seem to because they're not power or performance moments.

I consider them small moments because they usually never have any baring on the seasonal arc. Which wouldn't be a problem until you realize other characters on the team can and do have their character progression also effect the seasonal arc or shift because the season's plot does. The fact that Wally's hasn't been handled in a similar way makes him seem "less equal", which gets frustrating for those who like him more than, say, Superboy, who is the be-all of the series.

I mean, it sucked being a Cyclops, Colossus, or Iceman fan a lot in "WOLVERINE & THE X-MEN", but at the very least that show gave fair warning in it's title as to who the top dog was. Even "LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES" had the S-shield in it's logo which was a major clue as to who the star was. "YJ" didn't give that sort of warning so I went in assuming it wouldn't have a couple heroes who were the stars and the rest on the team were "less equal". Maybe it was naive to assume someone Super-related wouldn't be a hog.

I certainly don't think that's his only relevant role. You seem to because you haven't gotten your power moments.

Both Superboy and Megan and even Artemis have gotten moments which weren't so mutually exclusive. Why hasn't Wally? That's where I get frustrated.

I don't think that's his only role, you seem to due to cherry picking at moments because they don't reach your expectations right away.

So, 31 (and counting) episodes of a show which has 46 is "right away". Gotcha.

I never said that, but after watching the shows he started AND finished I have 90% faith that he knows what he's doing.

Everyone is fallible. To err is human.

Unless you're "the Light"; of course in fairness most of them aren't human.

YJ has shown emotion, you just dismiss that because it doesn't give you everything you want.

Couldn't it at least give me 60% of what I want?

Weisman said a couple of the relationships WOULD be focused on, and we've gotten a couple of them. Do the math.

He also said that the storyline was so intense, we'd have to get to know the new characters "on the fly" yet both Blue Beetle and especially Impulse have gotten entire episodes centered around them (with Wonder Girl a close third). I mean you'd expect that sort of thing naturally, but "Word Of God" isn't literally word of god. He also dismissed rumors of the time skip by claiming the premiere picks up one minute after season 1's finale when all that meant was re-airing the ending scene before getting on with the time skip. I mean, yeah, I totally understand why Weisman couldn't and wouldn't give away a major plot twist in an interview for IGN before the premiere (especially since I imagine he regrets revealing who Aqualad's father was so early online) but it is what it is.

I don't see one minute out of 6 episodes as sufficient "focus", especially when the show did spend far more airtime regarding Megan and Superboy's LACK of a relationship. There's another 14 episodes in the season for it to come up, but I really did hope that "better late than never" wouldn't continue to be the mantra of the show.

Here's a challenge to you Dread, if your truly unsatisfied with Wally West on this show, why don't you go to s8, and ask greg weisman why wally seems so incompetent & underwhelming on this show, and detail ALL your problems you have with him. Maybe he might give you an answer that helps you understand the choices they've made. I did the same thing when I asked about Tombstone on Spectacular Spider-Man and I was satisfied. What have you got to lose?

When you asked about Tombstone, s8/ASK GREG hadn't become so overrun with lunatics that Greg had to have more black out periods and have allies screen and answer many of the questions. I imagine by this point he sighs in relief if someone asks about something from "GARGOYLES" once in a blue moon.

Also, personally, I don't feel like wasting Greg's time like that. It's hard for me to criticize whatever I feel he may be doing wrong with the show when I decide to add to a distraction from working on it. Besides, it isn't as if even if he 100% agreed with me he could do anything to change the episodes in production now. So it doesn't seem to be worth the effort on either end. That, and every time I skim s8/ASK GREG I become so embarrassed by what I read from some of the postings of fans there I become ashamed to even bother. I sometimes feel like apologizing for some of them.

Now, if I ran into Greg at a con and we got into a conversation about his work, then yeah I'd bring it up.

"JL/U" 's Wally West had a lot of things but lacked others. "YJ" 's Wally West has a lot of different things but lacks in others. Why is it so wrong to want a total package? Especially when you see that sort of thing pulled off so easily and routinely with other more popular DC characters? Because sometimes I get tired of liking certain characters on shows and then while all their co-stars around them rack up awesome moments in terms of both characterization AND skills/powers, those characters in particular get far fewer. Maybe it is a fan thing which is hard to explain perfectly.

For the record, the major reason why I loved "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" was because it DID give me that "total package" with what I wanted in a Spider-Man show/story/presentation. Maybe expecting that to be imitated with Wally West was asking a bit much.

 

[Sarcastic Fan]

When you asked about Tombstone, s8/ASK GREG hadn't become so overrun with lunatics that Greg had to have more black out periods and have allies screen and answer many of the questions. I imagine by this point he sighs in relief if someone asks about something from "GARGOYLES" once in a blue moon.

Also, personally, I don't feel like wasting Greg's time like that. It's hard for me to criticize whatever I feel he may be doing wrong with the show when I decide to add to a distraction from working on it. Besides, it isn't as if even if he 100% agreed with me he could do anything to change the episodes in production now. So it doesn't seem to be worth the effort on either end. That, and every time I skim s8/ASK GREG I become so embarrassed by what I read from some of the postings of fans there I become ashamed to even bother. I sometimes feel like apologizing for some of them.

Speaking as someone who's been reading ASK GREG since 1997, a well written, well thought out post of yours would be a shining beacon in a sea of crap.

 

[nygma619]

Which would be fine in "YOUNG JUSTICE" if "BLOODTIES" or some other episode introduced that theme, but it didn't;

You don't think they weren't setting things up with Wally and Bart down the road? Since their dynamic in the comics was a big deal for Bart. Alot of other people seem to get that, especially those that don't follow Greg Weisman's other shows.

I didn't since it wasn't addressed to me. I did go back and look at it. I found it amusing that you've dismissed my statements that Wally's science exposition is something any other character could do if the plot demanded it, yet you dismissed Artemis' defeat of Harm in similar fashion to attempt to make a point. You cannot dismiss a point when I make it while attempt to utilize the same logic which you previously dismissed; that's having it both ways.

Because it wouldn't be as in character for anyone else on the team to think that stuff up "ON THE FLY". No one else on the team was capable of doing that. Anybody could've defeated Harm by that point.

But you clearly missed my point, when I said I never held that against her, because I don't think over analyzing is the key to enjoying something.

I addressed your dismissal of "DIVIDED WE FALL" as a stand alone episode which didn't have any baring on the seasonal arc, which was a criticism I had of "COLDHEARTED". I went on a lengthy explanation about how "DWF" provided a climax to a loose subplot carried over two entire seasons of material and your response has been to shift the measures of comparison from seasonal storylines to character development. That's akin to asking someone to hit a home run, they do so, and then you groan and say, "But I meant hit a triple."

You didn't answer the question. Where did Wally's character EVOLVE from that. Also the home run/triple analogy doesn't hold water. A better analogy would be if that person hit the home run, but doesn't do anything to evolve as a hitter beyond that.

He also said that the storyline was so intense, we'd have to get to know the new characters "on the fly" yet both Blue Beetle and especially Impulse have gotten entire episodes centered around them (with Wonder Girl a close third).

Aside from Impulse how much do we really know about the others and their background compared to the original six?

There's another 14 episodes in the season for it to come up, but I really did hope that "better late than never" wouldn't continue to be the mantra of the show.

I'm sorry patience is not your strongest virtue. Do you know how long it took for Owen Burnett to be revealed as The Puck on Gargoyles? That little revelation resolved many complaints fans had with the character. Like him willingly turning his hand to stone, or Preston Vogel looking like a lazy character design of Owen's.

When you asked about Tombstone, s8/ASK GREG hadn't become so overrun with lunatics that Greg had to have more black out periods and have allies screen and answer many of the questions. I imagine by this point he sighs in relief if someone asks about something from "GARGOYLES" once in a blue moon.

You weren't there when SSM fans wanted to know about season 3 beyond and he kept having to say "no comment". Besides, after Depths he'll probably lock the question thread not too long afterwards so he can catch up with the backlog (believe me, it's not his first one. And it won't be his last.)

Also, personally, I don't feel like wasting Greg's time like that. It's hard for me to criticize whatever I feel he may be doing wrong with the show when I decide to add to a distraction from working on it.

The only thing he and Brandon have left is waiting for the last episode to come back from over seas. And he wouldn't have it there, if he didn't feel he couldn't handle it.

Besides, it isn't as if even if he 100% agreed with me he could do anything to change the episodes in production now. So it doesn't seem to be worth the effort on either end.

Who said he would agree with you? I'm 100% positive he wouldn't, and how do you know you wouldn't gain some perspective from him answering your questions about him? Are you really afraid of learning something about the decisions they've made or having your mind potentially being changed about something?

Speaking as someone who's been reading ASK GREG since 1997, a well written, well thought out post of yours would be a shining beacon in a sea of crap.

What he said.

 

[J the Drafter]

I do have to say this about Bloodlines. What I was expecting was a story that would examine Wally's place in the Flash legacy and give Wally character depth. What we got were some action scenes, Wally getting hugely outperformed, and a Bart introduction. The Bart intro isn't bad, nor is the episode bad for not doing the character introspection I thought was coming. I didn't like the "Wally is useless" theme (What purpose does it serve? Bart was joining and about to become a new member of the Team regardless of Wally, and the episode never explored Wally's feelings about about his inferiority). I also didn't like the fact that this episode was not, in fact, a character-centric piece focused on Wally when the implication seemed to be that it would be. True, I know that we were only told that Bloodlines would be a Flash Legacy episode, but multiple people talked about this episode focusing on the people behind the Flashes. Hell, people talked about this episode like it would answer a lot of complaints about Wally not having enough fleshing out in the cartoon. It was disappointing to come in expecting Wally to recieve development and instead get handed yet another new character, along with Flash being humiliated.

 

[Webhead2006]

I still don't see the flash episode as a bad thing. It was a nice peice of legacy story there. And intro for bart. Like I said before I am no dc expert but they handled the episode well I thought.

As for the whole comics thing. I do think its a cool way to expand the show. But then the problem is if you don't read the books viewers loose out on certain things. Also some may not like to read comics. Or have no ways to get books or due to the high price of comics these days they just don't have budget for it.

 

[J the Drafter]

I would gladly have sliced away some of the plot to get more focus on the characters. Season one boiled down to the Starro mind-control chips, after all. A simpler season arc would have allowed more time to really get into the heads of these characters. I, for one, prefer that to be part of the cartoon, not as part of a comic that I need to pay for. Heck, "Image" was such a treat because we got to see how M'Gann ticked; I enjoyed that episode even though I was spoiled for the plot twist about M'Gann's natural appearance. It would have been helpful to the show to spend more time on expanding their characters. Zatanna, for example, barely got any attention after joining the Team. A fanfic did a better job showing how Zatanna felt in the weeks following her father's body-jacking than the actual TV series managed to.

 

[FinalAvalanche]

I found this link on the YJ:Legacy facebook site: http://www.thegameslave.com/video-games/2012/6/5/young-justice-legacy-creator-interview-preview.html

Most of the info. we already know, but here's a few new pieces:
1) The game will explain how the characters got to be where they are in season 2, such as "Robin (Dick Grayson) becomes Nightwing and Robin (Tim Drake) is introduced".
2) "The game focuses on what is initially a search for a missing archeologist, but turns into something much bigger."
3) Greece and Siberia have been revealed as locations.
4) The "game has been in production since October".
5) The game will "play a little like "Marvel Ultimate Alliance" where you choose your team and level them up".

 

[Webhead2006]

Nice find on game details.

 

[Dread]

The World's Finest at Toonzone actually has their preview clips and screen caps for "DEPTHS" a day earlier than they usually do. Considering that it is probably the last new episode of the show which CN may have ready for air until around winter, I imagine they want to make sure to promote some buzz for it. We've had 3+ months of new episodes, so it is hard to complain.

Link: http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/youngjustice/guides/reviews/33depths/

My notes, which I don't consider spoilers since this is all perfectly released on the web for discussion:

- Much like Wally, Artemis has kept her traditional costume and basically just looks a little taller. The pony-tail is something she ties her hair in for combat, which is realistic since as an archer she wouldn't want to risk hair fudging her aim in her eyes.

- Episode looks to be very busy; busy enough that it will probably be sparking debates and buzz for months. We have Artemis basically getting back into the game to assist with a Ferris space launch to Mars (GL nod), which means appearances by Nightwing, Superboy, Mal Duncan, Miss Martian, and Lagoon Boy at the very least. A screen cap notes that Nightwing is aware of the "real Roy's" return and Impulse seems to be sticking around.

- Considering the title, is it a spoiler that Black Manta and Aqualad show up?

- The first clip does confirm Wally also is in the episode. On this clip I won't spoil it too much, but the ending of it will probably make a lot of Artemis fans very, VERY nervous.

 

[Gelc22]

- The first clip does confirm Wally also is in the episode. On this clip I won't spoil it too much, but the ending of it will probably make a lot of Artemis fans very, VERY nervous.

That clip actually has me more worried for Wally than Artemis. Now, nothing suggest that Wally will even be involved in the mission, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did show up considering how [BLACKOUT]worried[/BLACKOUT] he was in the clip.

 

[Dread]

You don't think they weren't setting things up with Wally and Bart down the road? Since their dynamic in the comics was a big deal for Bart. Alot of other people seem to get that, especially those that don't follow Greg Weisman's other shows.

It is possible. I don't see the reason to include Bart Allen at all aside for the fact that Impulse was a member of YOUNG JUSTICE in the comics. I'm still banking on Impulse getting more to do since he'll actually be on "the team".

Because it wouldn't be as in character for anyone else on the team to think that stuff up "ON THE FLY". No one else on the team was capable of doing that. Anybody could've defeated Harm by that point.

But you clearly missed my point, when I said I never held that against her, because I don't think over analyzing is the key to enjoying something.

Anybody WASN'T there to defeat Harm by that point. And it was Zatanna and Artemis' pursuit of Secret which led to Harm's defeat.

There is a touch of irony in you defending a science character while in the same post dismissing my tendency to over-analyze.

You didn't answer the question. Where did Wally's character EVOLVE from that. Also the home run/triple analogy doesn't hold water. A better analogy would be if that person hit the home run, but doesn't do anything to evolve as a hitter beyond that.

You DO realize that no end of baseball players became superstars by focusing on hitting home runs, especially at the peak of the "steroid era" in the 90's and the fact that most pro-sports media seem to popularize individual efforts (the home run, the slam dunk, catching a TD pass) than collective team fundamentals. But I digress. Maybe this is why sports metaphors suck.

I didn't answer the question because that wasn't the criteria of what made talk of "DIVIDED WE FALL" come up. I was criticizing "COLDHEARTED" (still one of my favorite episodes of "YJ") because despite how good it was, the story from it didn't factor into other episodes like many other focus episodes that did. You brought up "DWF" and I explained how "DWF" was actually the culmination of arguably 2 seasons worth of loose subplots in "JLU" so it very much DID matter a great deal to that show at large. I was measuring based on worth to the storyline of a season.

Wally stepping up in "DWF" literally saved the entire world and defeated a villain who had been plaguing them for two seasons, if not more, in most powerful form. Even without being the climax to a lot of subplots, "DWF" had a legacy in that Luthor spent the rest of the subsequent season trying to "re-merge" with Brainiac to the point that he accidentally unleashed Darkseid on the world, sparking the series finale. As for Flash himself, after that episode I think any anxiety he had about not measuring up to the other founders was gone.

"COLDHEARTED" may have taught Wally perspective, but neither that or any plot details from that episode had much if any effect on the storyline of the season at large.

Aside from Impulse how much do we really know about the others and their background compared to the original six?

We did learn a lot about Jaime Reyes in "BENEATH". We know a great deal about Beast Boy from "IMAGE" last season and "EARTHLINGS" this season. It took over a dozen episodes to learn as much about Wally last season.

I'm sorry patience is not your strongest virtue. Do you know how long it took for Owen Burnett to be revealed as The Puck on Gargoyles? That little revelation resolved many complaints fans had with the character. Like him willingly turning his hand to stone, or Preston Vogel looking like a lazy character design of Owen's.

"YOUNG JUSTICE" doesn't have as many episodes. 46 are assured and after that I have little faith in WB and/or CN ordering more because I usually expect them to foul up anything good. It is nice that Greg Weisman plans stuff 5 seasons in advance, but sometimes I wonder if that effects his ability to handle the seasons he has assured. I mean, it HAS become a trend with him to get shows yanked or canceled before he got through with EVERYTHING he had to do.

Unfortunately, I think his response to this in this second season of "YJ" is to speed past only the obligatory character stuff and trudge on with his complicated storyline. So maybe it's a catch-22.

There's patience, and then there's decompression. Admittedly, the line where one becomes the other is subjective.

You weren't there when SSM fans wanted to know about season 3 beyond and he kept having to say "no comment". Besides, after Depths he'll probably lock the question thread not too long afterwards so he can catch up with the backlog (believe me, it's not his first one. And it won't be his last.)

Touche'.

The only thing he and Brandon have left is waiting for the last episode to come back from over seas. And he wouldn't have it there, if he didn't feel he couldn't handle it.

I thought a whole bunch of episodes were still being animated overseas? I guess I missed a production update.

Man, then CN really does need to get on the ball on approving of a third season or not if they'd like to have it ready by around this time 2013.

Who said he would agree with you? I'm 100% positive he wouldn't, and how do you know you wouldn't gain some perspective from him answering your questions about him? Are you really afraid of learning something about the decisions they've made or having your mind potentially being changed about something?

Oh, I doubt he'd agree with me at all, aside for the notion of only having so much airtime. Which was my point; even if he did, there isn't much he could do to respond to my criticisms in the show itself so it would be a bit moot.

I also figure I would get pretty much the same response from him that I've gotten from you or Sarcastic Fan - power levels shouldn't matter and it's just all in my perception because, hey, exposition about volcanoes was important once. I also would rather the show speak for itself, for better or worse. Maybe once the run on "YJ" is over I'll post about it, if it's still a concern by that point.

Usually if something like that is needed it comes up in some podcast or interview after the fact too. Probably the only thing that was a little close was a podcast interview he did with I believe Spider-Man's Crawl Space where the discussion came to Eddie Brock's demeanor in "TSSM" and Weisman stated they approached Brock as someone who "embraced death" in contrast to Peter's embrace of life, which explained some of the seemingly "heroic" things he did like try to take on Lizard when they were also reckless. I didn't have too many criticisms of that show or how it handled Brock but I did find that bit interesting.

Speaking as someone who's been reading ASK GREG since 1997, a well written, well thought out post of yours would be a shining beacon in a sea of crap.

Come on now; I wouldn't want to interrupt a long theme of asking about the eye colors of characters both major and random.

At the moment I am a little swamped with stuff; Examiner articles, life, "A:EMH" episodes, etc. I may consider it after "DEPTHS".

 

[Dread]

I would gladly have sliced away some of the plot to get more focus on the characters. Season one boiled down to the Starro mind-control chips, after all. A simpler season arc would have allowed more time to really get into the heads of these characters.

I do agree with this. That was part of why I thought "X-MEN EVOLUTION" worked well. At least for most of the first two seasons, the plots were fairly flimsy, with much of the show being around character development. The trade off is that when the plot DID finally step up at the end of Season 2 through Seasons 3-4, that foundation was there so it had a lot of weight to it.

I often felt this show began too cluttered and too complicated, and I think had it started somewhere simpler and built up - as "TSSM" did - it would be a stronger show. Season 2 has seemed to embellish this flaw to a degree with all the spare characters and sudden plot shifts with old ones that happened off-stage.

That clip actually has me more worried for Wally than Artemis. Now, nothing suggest that Wally will even be involved in the mission, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did show up considering how [BLACKOUT]worried[/BLACKOUT] he was in the clip.

I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, I wouldn't mind if he did show up for the mission. On the other hand, that would then paint Artemis as a damsel who needed rescue and I feel that role ill suits her - especially as Miss Martian often plays that role with Superboy.

As for the fate of Wally or Artemis, I'd rather neither of them get axed off. Killing off one character to motivate another is the oldest and most predictable characterization tool in fiction; even myths utilized it as well as do most standard superhero origins. I do see your point about concern for Wally considering "BLOODLINES" did literally introduce his replacement on "the team" who is capable of accomplishing all the speedster moves Wally couldn't. Of course, considering we have Red Arrow and "Real Roy" the show is about to get probably one archer too many.

I suppose you could argue that the dark, unpredictable to a fault nature of the show ups suspense to certain levels. While I enjoy "A:EMH", I rarely fret about the fates of certain long term characters. That said, I'm cautious of axing off any long term character in comic stuff because more often than not it's the easy way out of attempting to justify a particular motivation.

 

[Lencho01]

Here are YouTube versions of the clips...

[YT]kzmNOdq33JA[/YT]

[YT]noDj3yq5S8c[/YT]

 

[Gelc22]

I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, I wouldn't mind if he did show up for the mission.

I do wonder why he's not tagging along in the first place. You'd think he'd feel a little bit better about it if he was there instead of waiting at home to find out what happened.

As for the fate of Wally or Artemis, I'd rather neither of them get axed off. Killing off one character to motivate another is the oldest and most predictable characterization tool in fiction; even myths utilized it as well as do most standard superhero origins.

Agreed, but I don't see how Artemis' death could motivate Wally all that much. He apparently isn't eager to get back into the hero game and if Artemis died during a mission, I'd think it would be less likely for him to come back. .

It appears Wally became jaded by the superhero thing during the five year gap and it's not too surprising. Wally's childhood was a happy one with a loving family, so when he decided to give himself powers he probably had a naive view about what being a superhero means. Not saying he wasn't aware of the risks and what could happen, but experiencing them is much different. Seeing Kent Nelson die in front of him, Artemis' "death" in "Failsafe", and possibly Tula's death(& whatever else) might have just taken it's toll on him to where he didn't want to deal with it anymore.

Killing Artemis isn't going to help with that. I just have this weird feeling that Artemis' line about "What could go wrong?" is just misdirection so people will think it will be her and it'll be Wally instead. I really hope it doesn't go down that way because Wally is my favorite and it seems a bit wrong to kill him here considering they constantly pointed out he's inferior to Bart/Barry just last week.

I do see your point about concern for Wally considering "BLOODLINES" did literally introduce his replacement on "the team" who is capable of accomplishing all the speedster moves Wally couldn't

I wouldn't say it's so much about Bart showing up, but the fact that the Flash family just avoided a tragedy with Barry last week. Maybe Weisman and co want to take a different route than the comics and have Wally bite it rather than Barry. I personally think it would be a waste because the Wally/Bart dynamic could be fun and interesting, but it's possible.

 

[vantheman77]

If Artemis does die in this episode, this would lead to problems between Kid Flash and Nightwing and we could see why Aqualad left the team the way he did. I've said that Artemis' death could lead to the real Roy Harper being Speedy again or become Arsenal. Sportsmaster and Cheshire would have a reason to go after the team with a vengeance.

 

[Webhead2006]

Nice clips for the episode.

 

[FinalAvalanche]

Killing Artemis isn't going to help with that. I just have this weird feeling that Artemis' line about "What could go wrong?" is just misdirection so people will think it will be her and it'll be Wally instead. I really hope it doesn't go down that way because Wally is my favorite and it seems a bit wrong to kill him here considering they constantly pointed out he's inferior to Bart/Barry just last week.

I wouldn't say it's so much about Bart showing up, but the fact that the Flash family just avoided a tragedy with Barry last week. Maybe Weisman and co want to take a different route than the comics and have Wally bite it rather than Barry. I personally think it would be a waste because the Wally/Bart dynamic could be fun and interesting, but it's possible.

A problem that arises from changing the past is that some things may be changed unintentionally, so by saving Barry, Impulse may have accidentally doomed someone else. Once Impulse causes a specific change even he doesn't know what will happen from that moment on.

 

[mr. peasant]

Here are YouTube versions of the clips...

[YT]kzmNOdq33JA[/YT]

Spoiler

Oh dammit... she just had to say that at the end, didn't she. That's it... Artemis is gonna die.


....


Or at least really, really hurt.

 

[Grommers]

Digital is probably the easier way to catch up on previous issues that were missed, which is one advantage of the format once DC decided to use it properly.

I don't have an iPad or an i-anything. If I even desired to catch up on it, it would require heading off to Manhattan to buy the trade collection and hunting down back-issues since shops order it like a kiddie book, i.e. ordering maybe 1-5 copies at most. I did consider it after about six issues and figured it wasn't worth the financial or time effort.

The option is nice, you have a point there. Mine is that I feel character development has often been sacrificed for the plot in the TV show (even more so in the second season than the first), which makes the comics seem less "insignificant" than they should be because of it. Yet I feel that a show which leaves that stuff within a $3 monthly side pamphlet is really little different than a show which encourages kids to buy toys, although others disagree.

I agree with you dread on two accounts, the character's development has been sacrificed especially in the second season. That's an issue of the TV show, nothing to do on the comic.

Now, the second point you bring up is the 3$ monthly side pamphlet, thats one of my biggest gripes! That's all these comics feel like they are, that they could be plastered on a burger king bag, and the quality would be the same. They don't feel overly indepth aside from the Captain atom story and perhaps the ocean master, but for the most part they are forgettable and don't offer anything of substance.

I know 3$ isn't much for the amount of art, I just dont' find the art overly effective in them, and there isn't really enough story to keep justifying myself getting them.

On a side note - As you know the video game is supposed to take place right after season 1. Will you be getting that? I personally will, for the story alone. I'm hoping it'll be much cheaper than a regular game, but I wont' be surprised if it's 60$, and thats where I'm always going to question my financials -

1.) I know personally from working programming, that games are no easy to task to develop.

2.) I also expect quality over quantity in a game, any one can create a quantity game that is exceptionally long, but if theres no quality than who cares. (However games like pacman really shoot me down in the foot here.)

3.) I have to imagine this game will feel out-dated by the time it comes out, nothing really new, and just a bunch of gimmicky stuff that's thrown into every game.

4.) I like this show, I like the stories, I'm a huge fan of weisman, and I think this maybe one median where there is a payoff which I have yet to see in YJ.

 

[Lencho01]

Spoiler

Oh dammit... she just had to say that at the end, didn't she. That's it... Artemis is gonna die.


....


Or at least really, really hurt.

I sort of feel the same way. With the short episode synopsis and this clip, I do wonder if they would really make it so obvious or are just messing with people since so many expect something bad to happen.