Comics Your Spider-Ending.... What point in Continuity?

[ben_reilly_s_s]

So, it seems people are really torn over everything that has happened in that last 5-15 years of "continuity"

That being said,
Where do you consider the cut off for continuity going by in story...?
*Up to the end of "The Final Chapter"
*Up to the end of "One More Day"
*Up to the end of "Brand New Day"
*Or do you prefer how events play out as new continuity is played out?

 

[:eek:]

Up to Annual 21. Obviously you can now think of everything after that as two different realities. One with and one without Mephisto's interference.

 

[Themanofbat]

What about an option for those that still thinks the continuity is on-going?

This poll is obviously biased towards the current batch of ASM haters....

 

[ben_reilly_s_s]

What about an option for those that still thinks the continuity is on-going?

This poll is obviously biased towards the current batch of ASM haters....

It's not, that is what option 4 is for.

 

[Themanofbat]

I guess I didn't like the term "alternate" history...

 

[Meehaul]

Actually, this IS the history. A history where Pete & MJ stayed married, or even got married, is now the "alternate history," for better or for worse.

 

[Dragon]

Amazing Fantasy #15 through ASM #257 (258?) Anyway, it's the issue where MJ revealed she always knew Peter was Spider-Man. The first really, really stupid retcon (Of course she couldn't have simply found out then or confirmed her suspicions. No. She had to have always known ). When I read that issue I knew we were in trouble. And we were. Because since Marvel got away with that bit of dumbness the Retcon Express was allowed to run wild and here we are with magic spells and desperate attempts to find anyway to explain something that could have and should have been handled in the simplest of ways.

 

[iloveclones]

Now there is a rare moment of agreement, Dragon. I didn't mind the revelation tha MJ knew at some point. In fact, I liked seeing Pete get caught off guard, and wonder, as usual, how he was going to explain it away. Of course, in retrospect, I realize the reason they did it that way was because they had to make MJ alright with him being Spidey in a hurry, because they were getting married in a hurry.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

Personally, I don't get the big deal with the change of history. By destroying the marriage we've seen a lot of changes in the universe, and a lot of cool twists. Granted, it does suck that Peter and MJ are apart, but I think in the event that they do reunite, we'll appreciate their relationship more than before. I like the original flow as much as everyone, but sometimes retcons help add a little spice here and there and keep the interest afloat.

I'm also the one who didn't have a problem with Abrams' Star Trek ... for the same reasons.

 

[Themanofbat]

Amazing Fantasy #15 through ASM #257 (258?) Anyway, it's the issue where MJ revealed she always knew Peter was Spider-Man. The first really, really stupid retcon (Of course she couldn't have simply found out then or confirmed her suspicions. No. She had to have always known ). When I read that issue I knew we were in trouble. And we were. Because since Marvel got away with that bit of dumbness the Retcon Express was allowed to run wild and here we are with magic spells and desperate attempts to find anyway to explain something that could have and should have been handled in the simplest of ways.

I agree.

And it's the same argument that the haters currently use about reading their older issues and having to "pretend" that they are not married.

I remember after the reveal, I read Marvel Team-Up #19 & 20, a 2 parter guest starring Ka-Zar & the Black Panther (this would have been circa 1974), and it had to do with Stegron, the Dinosaur Man, bringing some dinosaurs from the Savage Land to New York City to wreak havoc... ahh, the good ol' days ... in any event, during the dinosaur rampage of NYC, Spidey snares the legs of a brontosaurus, and it's about to collapse on a wandering MJ, who happens to cross the police lines because she wants to find Peter... if she knows he's in the battle ground AS SPIDER-MAN, why does she go in there, risking her life? And to make matters worse, after Spidey snares away from the falling Bronty, he gives her the "tough guy super-hero" speech, to which all she says is "S-s-spider-Man?", and followed by a "Yes sir"... evidently, the writer of the book failed to understand that MJ was supposed to know that Peter & Spider-Man are one on the same... lol

It doesn't feel right when I read these beloved issues, but it doesn't take away from the greatness of the issue, so I'm curious as to WHY somebody reading a "beloved" 90's issue can't read it the same way I have to read all my older issues?

A retcon is a retcon is a retcon, regardless of brillianceand/or stupidity...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Now there is a rare moment of agreement, Dragon. I didn't mind the revelation tha MJ knew at some point. In fact, I liked seeing Pete get caught off guard, and wonder, as usual, how he was going to explain it away. Of course, in retrospect, I realize the reason they did it that way was because they had to make MJ alright with him being Spidey in a hurry, because they were getting married in a hurry.

Are you trying to bait me?

Anyway, I too was surprised MJ "always knew." I too thought we would find out she figured it out along the way and got confirmation with the Puma encounter.

But, seriously guys, this OMD retcon is not in the same ballpark as the MJ knowing retcon, or even the Pete was the clone retcon (if they had kept it). Other retcons were changes made off panal in some semblence of continuity.

OMD was an out an out magic trick so Marvel could say "Just pretend Pete & MJ never married." The above retcons were not the same magnitude of ignoring an event. It would be like Marvel saying, "Just pretend the Green Goblin never killed Gwen" (which they also almost did with this retcon).

 

[:eek:]

Here's what a retcon is:

Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon) refers to the deliberate alteration of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction

In my opinion revealing that MJ always knew isn't a retcon. It was never written down that MJ didn't know. They only added that she knew. It's no more a retcon than if you read a novel and learn something new about a character halfway through or something. Sure, the writers in the 60's and 70's obvioulsy hadn't in mind that MJ knew. But as reader it isn't to hard to buy that she knew and pretended she didn't (maybe she is a good asctress after all... )

Comparing this with the erasing of the marriage, which definitely is a retcon, is in my opinion just silly

 

[Themanofbat]

I don't know... when I read that MTU #19 & 20, and she goes into the battle zone looking for Peter because he's taking pictures....
Sure sounds like she didn't know...

 

[iloveclones]

Are you trying to bait me?

Of course not!


I was trying to bait Dragon!

Someone will have to remind me what exactly she revealed to him in the pages of Amazing when she came back right before the marriage. If memory serves (which it rarely does these days), it wasn't revealed that she knew all the way back to AF15 until Parallel Lives (which I don't think I've ever read....how's that for a kick in the head)

Either way, I thought it was cool that she found out at some point, even that it made her leave town. But I always thought going way back to the beginning was unecessary. And stupid.

 

[Themanofbat]

Someone will have to remind me what exactly she revealed to him in the pages of Amazing when she came back right before the marriage. If memory serves (which it rarely does these days), it wasn't revealed that she knew all the way back to AF15 until Parallel Lives (which I don't think I've ever read....how's that for a kick in the head)

At the end of ASM #257, she reveals to Peter that she knows that he's Spider-Man.... this issue came out in the fall of 1984...

The Parallel Lives GN came out 5 years later in 1989 where it was revealed that she had known from the beginning...

I could live with that... though it sure tarnishes a LOT of back issues that I have to now "edit" because she's always known...

 

[iloveclones]

The Parallel Lives GN came out 5 years later in 1989 where it was revealed that she had known from the beginning...

Sounds about right. I remember not reading that GN because, even then, I was starting to find their new relationship a bit boring. And when I found out what it was about, it was a bit of an eyeroll for me. To me, it was a blatant attempt to make MJ more "Lois Lane" important. In fact, I suspect it's why a lot of people feel that she's central to the story, and I don't.

 

[Themanofbat]

It was also written by a much older Gerry Conway, and it wasn't that great... in my opinion.

 

[iloveclones]

Did you know he was the main (or one of the main) writers on Law and Order. I couldn't believe it when I saw him in the credits.

 

[Dragon]

Here's what a retcon is:



In my opinion revealing that MJ always knew isn't a retcon. It was never written down that MJ didn't know. They only added that she knew. It's no more a retcon than if you read a novel and learn something new about a character halfway through or something. Sure, the writers in the 60's and 70's obvioulsy hadn't in mind that MJ knew. But as reader it isn't to hard to buy that she knew and pretended she didn't (maybe she is a good asctress after all... )

Comparing this with the erasing of the marriage, which definitely is a retcon, is in my opinion just silly

It is a retcon. The stories prior to the reveal are structured around MJ not knowing. There are too many instances wherein MJ's behavior would have been different had she really known.

Case in point: ASM #127 . MJ. who has been afraid for her life from the Vulture's retribution is attacked by the Vulture, with Peter sitting next to her. Yet she didn't in that moment of desperation react in anyway that she would have if she had known that Peter was Spider-Man. For that matter, their conversations in previous scenes would have been structured differently if she had known, even if she wanted to maintain the secret. In ASM #134, when Peter swirtches to Spidey to fight the Tarantula, MJ creates suspicion about Peter's disappearance. Something she wouldn't do if she knew. There are many other examples ranging from her being overly *****y to doing things that would be dangerous, which wouldn't have happened if she knew Peter was Spider-Man.

And on the flipside, if you want to take your position, then the Mephisto deal definitely isn't a retcon, since an actual event occurs to end the marriage and existence of the marriage. It isn't as though we were told that the maarriage simply had never happened.

 

[Dragon]

Did you know he was the main (or one of the main) writers on Law and Order. I couldn't believe it when I saw him in the credits.

I knew. It's one of my favorite shows.

 

[iloveclones]

^ It produced one of those geek moments where I put the DVR on pause, reversed it, and then spent the next 10 minutes explaining to my fiance who he was, why he's important, and for her to stop looking at me like that.

 

[Themanofbat]

t: t: t:

 

[iloveclones]

That actually comes in second place to when I dragged her to Star Trek, and spent the ride there explaining what continuity is, and why it's important to Trekkies.

 

[ben_reilly_s_s]

I also have never read Parellel (sp) Lives.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

^ It produced one of those geek moments where I put the DVR on pause, reversed it, and then spent the next 10 minutes explaining to my fiance who he was, why he's important, and for her to stop looking at me like that.

I know those moments!

And yes, Parallel Lives was how we learned how MJ knew. I thought it was a little far fetched myself, but it still wasn't on the order of ignoring that Pete & MJ got married. As eek pointed out, MJ knowing (or Pete since ASM#150 was a clone, if they went that route) was adding prviously ubknown info. This single Pete asks us to blatantly ignore an event we saw with our own eyes.