Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 6

[Spider-Fan]

Nor do the people who utterly hate it. He made a piece of art now it's getting critiqued. I think that's fair game.

I agree, it is fair game to state your grievances. Never said it wasn't fair game. My point is that people thinking fans of the movie need to apologize for being fans of it is ridiculous.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Oh no! So Bruce decided to move into an awesome penthouse by the lake and leave the mansion to waste. Big deal. lol

 

[FunkMiller]

Oh no! So Bruce decided to move into an awesome penthouse by the lake and leave the mansion to waste. Big deal. lol

Comments like this convince me a lot of Snyder fans aren't really fans of the comic characters he's made films about.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Comments like this convince me a lot of Snyder fans aren't really fans of the comic characters he's made films about.

Sure thing, man.

Batman is only my favorite comicbook character, but sure.

 

[FunkMiller]

Sure thing, man.

Batman is only my favorite comicbook character, but sure.

Really? Because you don't seem to have any issues casually dismissing extremely well known and important aspects of the character, if it means defending Snyder's 'vision'.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Really? Because you don't seem to have any issues casually dismissing extremely well known and important aspects of the character, if it means defending Snyder's 'vision'.

There you go again putting me into a ''Snyder fanboy'' category, which I ain't. I have never had issues with other folks making changes to ANY of the source material. I might make fun of some things that bald Nolan made changes to, but still ended up understanding and liking them, If it works for me then I don't see the problem. It does seem to bother you tho., which is fine that's your right as a fan, but don't come at me showing your number one Batman fan badge and trying to make me a lesser fan because I don't mind changes to the character.

 

[FunkMiller]

There you go again putting me into a ''Snyder fanboy'' category, which I ain't. I have never had issues with other folks making changes to ANY of the source material. I might make fun of some things that bald Nolan made changes to, but still ended up understanding and liking them, If it works for me then I don't see the problem. It does seem to bother you tho., which is fine that's your right as a fan, but don't come at me showing your number one Batman fan badge and trying to make me a lesser fan because I don't mind changes to the character.

There's nothing wrong with changes to a character. Some changes make a characterisation better. It's just dumb changes that I have a problem with. Changes made for the sake of it. Or ones that detract from the character, instead of adding to it. Like making Bruce Wayne a sex and alcohol addict to deal with his pain - when, you know, that's the main reason he is Batman. Or killing Dick Grayson for no good reason. Or letting Wayne manor go to wrack and ruin, despite the fact that one of the central elements of Bruce Wayne's character is maintaining the façade of a billionaire playboy with a huge mansion, so people don't suspect he's Batman.

So, this isn't about having a Batman Number One fan badge, it's about be able to critique poor decisions and concepts because they detract from a character. And if you're a Batman fan, I fail to see how you can be happy with such strange and sweeping changes that do nothing to make the characterisation better. I'm a Nolan fan, but I know damn well that he made some silly errors in TDKR.

 

[Black Narcissus]

There's nothing wrong with changes to a character. Some changes make a characterisation better. It's just dumb changes that I have a problem with. Changes made for the sake of it. Or ones that detract from the character, instead of adding to it. Like making Bruce Wayne a sex and alcohol addict to deal with his pain - when, you know, that's the main reason he is Batman. Or killing Dick Grayson for no good reason. Or letting Wayne manor go to wrack and ruin, despite the fact that one of the central elements of Bruce Wayne's character is maintaining the façade of a billionaire playboy with a huge mansion, so people don't suspect he's Batman.

So, this isn't about having a Batman Number One fan badge, it's about be able to critique poor decisions and concepts because they detract from a character. And if you're a Batman fan, I fail to see how you can be happy with such strange and sweeping changes that do nothing to make the characterisation better. I'm a Nolan fan, but I know damn well that he made some silly errors in TDKR.

There you go again. Sweet lord. lol

This is ridiculous.

 

[Flint Marko]

There's nothing wrong with changes to a character. Some changes make a characterisation better. It's just dumb changes that I have a problem with. Changes made for the sake of it. Or ones that detract from the character, instead of adding to it. Like making Bruce Wayne a sex and alcohol addict to deal with his pain - when, you know, that's the main reason he is Batman. Or killing Dick Grayson for no good reason. Or letting Wayne manor go to wrack and ruin, despite the fact that one of the central elements of Bruce Wayne's character is maintaining the façade of a billionaire playboy with a huge mansion, so people don't suspect he's Batman.

So, this isn't about having a Batman Number One fan badge, it's about be able to critique poor decisions and concepts because they detract from a character. And if you're a Batman fan, I fail to see how you can be happy with such strange and sweeping changes that do nothing to make the characterisation better. I'm a Nolan fan, but I know damn well that he made some silly errors in TDKR.

You’re talking to someone who doesn’t read comics. Not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing.... but changes to the source material aren’t going to bother him.

 

[Black Narcissus]

You’re talking to someone who doesn’t read comics. Not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing.... but changes to the source material aren’t going to bother him.

I have read some of the essential must read.

I'm all caught up on Rebirth.

 

[misslane38]

I understand that people like what they like for their own reasons. But nobody wants Superman or Batman to merely appease a niche audience. That's the quickest way of diluting the brand and forcing a quick death to a franchise.

Think of it this way. Superman and Batman aren't new brands. Snyder's approach was to deconstruct-reconstruct the glut of continuity and nostalgia associated with these characters so they could be brought to the existing fanbase of people open to new takes and a new audience of people for whom the previous takes hadn't worked. I recall seeing a few people say that, for them, this was the first Superman that really worked for them. I believe Snyder trusted that the characters were strong enough as characters and as icons to withstand deconstruction that was designed to examine or challenge aspects of the characters and ultimately develop them or reconstruct them into something closer to expectations. It's a process that takes time and asks much of the audience, but I think it has its rewards.

 

[misslane38]

There's nothing wrong with changes to a character. Some changes make a characterisation better. It's just dumb changes that I have a problem with. Changes made for the sake of it. Or ones that detract from the character, instead of adding to it. Like making Bruce Wayne a sex and alcohol addict to deal with his pain - when, you know, that's the main reason he is Batman. Or killing Dick Grayson for no good reason. Or letting Wayne manor go to wrack and ruin, despite the fact that one of the central elements of Bruce Wayne's character is maintaining the façade of a billionaire playboy with a huge mansion, so people don't suspect he's Batman.

Snyder understands those things, though, I believe. With the sex and drugs, those are meant to be aberrant and new coping mechanisms since, as is made clear in the movie, Batman isn't working for Bruce as a coping mechanism anymore. He feels Batman has failed: things haven't changed and he feels guilty and powerless. It also makes sense that in those 20 years, Bruce hasn't been using Batman in the healthiest of ways. He's placed too much of his own self-concept into it and become so dependent on it, that if it stops working, he loses his mooring. At the end of BvS, Batman has been reborn into something closer to the character you are seeking. He has a reformed outlook and approach.

Before he would have been consumed by "the Batman" and motivated by that triggering moment of his mother's death, and therefore would retreat away from his family home and to a place that reminded him of his mother. Like we see from Alfred's nagging in BvS (go to the party, go get a girlfriend, etc.), this Bruce hasn't really engaged with his Bruce identity or that part of himself in a genuine way for awhile. As he evolves and heals, he moves toward a more recognizable and constructive lifestyle where he wouldn't use drugs and sex (to feel or not feel) and he would use his family home (for his new family of league members).

 

[Da-Scribe]

"You're okay with changes that I didn't like. You're not a real fan!"

Lol. Wow.

 

[Black Narcissus]

"You're okay with changes that I didn't like. You're not a real fan!"

Lol. Wow.

For real tho. Damn. lol

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

"You're okay with changes that I didn't like. You're not a real fan!"

Lol. Wow.

For real tho. Damn. lol

Oh no! So Bruce decided to move into an awesome penthouse by the lake and leave the mansion to waste. Big deal. lol

For some of us it is a big deal.

This comment makes it seem like you are making fun of people who don't like this change. Like we're somehow whinging and being petty about this stuff.

It makes you come off as a hypocrite.

 

[Da-Scribe]

No one is saying it can't be a big deal to you. Just saying it's totally stupid to call other folk's fandom into question because they don't agree.

If you're allowed to be upset about it than the opposite is true and some of us can not give a damn. Same folks talking about feeling made fun of are the same ones calling Snyder a "cretin" lol.

Ridiculous.

 

[Black Narcissus]

For some of us it is a big deal.

This comment makes it seem like you are making fun of people who don't like this change. Like we're somehow whinging and being petty about this stuff.

It makes you come off as a hypocrite.

Difference is that I would never question your fandom over this tho. We may disagree on some things, but it would still be two passionate fans discussing these things, mang.

 

[FunkMiller]

"You're okay with changes that I didn't like. You're not a real fan!"

Lol. Wow.

“You’re okay with vacuous, ill-conceived changes which negatively impact Batman’s characterisation... that I didn’t like.” ...would be more accurate.

 

[FunkMiller]

I have read some of the essential must read.

I'm all caught up on Rebirth.

Oh, okay. Fair enough. I may have done you a disservice if you’re not a big Batman comic fan. I can understand why you would be less bothered, if you’re not as invested.

 

[chintai80]

i think it's also ur own personal mileage on how much loosely someone adapts the source material.

one of my favorite versions of batman is the original 1939 bob kane/bill finger one.

and he killed criminals just like batfleck did.

michael keaton's batman dropped more bodies in the movies than batfleck did. but i don't really hear as many people complaining bout that.

i think lot of folks just favor the more mainstream, recent version of bats - the animated series and after - where his no guns/no killing rule is more black and white.

various versions over the years sorta operated in a gray area with that no killing rule.
so i personally don't care as much about how much snyder changed things around.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Oh, okay. Fair enough. I may have done you a disservice if you’re not a big Batman comic fan. I can understand why you would be less bothered, if you’re not as invested.

But it ain't about the comics for me tho, it is about artistic freedom. Some might not work and what not, but if it works for me, I'm cool with many changes done to these characters. I simplify it by knowing there are many other versions out there, which is what I feel some hardcore comic fans refuse to accept for some reason...Ya'll want the Superman you know and love, I'm sure there are a comicbook issue for that or even a movie. But I'm 100% invested in Batman, always. Eh. Different takes and all.

 

[FunkMiller]

But it ain't about the comics for me tho, it is about artistic freedom. Some might not work and what not, but if it works for me, I'm cool with many changes done to these characters. I simplify it by knowing there are many other versions out there, which is what I feel some hardcore comic fans refuse to accept for some reason...Ya'll want the Superman you know and love, I'm sure there are a comicbook issue for that or even a movie. But I'm 100% invested in Batman, always. Eh. Different takes and all.

Okay. That’s fair enough. I struggle to see how anyone can be that invested in Batman if they’re not a big fan of the comics, but as you say, different takes. To me, Snyder simply takes too many liberties with the character I’ve been reading for thirty years, and the changes he does make show a marked lack of understanding and knowledge of Batman. However, I also cheerfully accept others do not see it the same way.

 

[Jekecy]

At this point in most of these character's stages, almost none of us are fans of the original iteration by the creator(s), so this whole source fidelity argument is a bit of a sham.

Our personal irreplaceable hallmarks are likely additions and/or retcons from artists who don't claim ownership to the IP and owe their knowledge to several generations of writers who themselves have put their own distinctive stamp on the property.

It would be hypocritical at this point to single out any given element as defining lore.

 

[chintai80]

Okay. That’s fair enough. I struggle to see how anyone can be that invested in Batman if they’re not a big fan of the comics, but as you say, different takes. To me, Snyder simply takes too many liberties with the character I’ve been reading for thirty years, and the changes he does make show a marked lack of understanding and knowledge of Batman. However, I also cheerfully accept others do not see it the same way.

i got u beat, i been reading for 31 years.
1987 mang. i'm a real fan.

bought the greatest batman stories ever told vol 1 in 1989 when the first burton movie released. that got various collected stories from 1939-1980s.

batman machine guns down some of hugo strange's thugs in a truck in one of the 1940 stories.

you can google it that panel up online.

also batman knocks a bad guy into a vat of acid in his first appearance. there's various examples where he almost blatantly kills bad guys (in the heat of battle of course - not premeditated - just as batfleck did).

 

[Black Narcissus]

What I would give to see this cowl on the big screen, even some of the most hardcore bat fanboys don't want this. lol