2009 NFL Draft Thread (aka Excel & Norman's personal b**ch and moan thread)

[Excel]

I don't. I think Moreno is a better football player. I think he is more dedicated, more intelligent, more focused, more durable, quicker (not faster), has better vision, has better skills. He is a tougher runner than Wells in spite of his size. The only thing Wells has over Moreno is 40 speed.

*shakes head*

Even his naysayers who have him under Moreno seem to admit the sky is the limit for Wells, they just question his drive to get there. 4.37 40 with Jacobs esque power when he wants to is freakish. Moreno cannot touch either.

If Williamson couldn't start on that USC team, there was a problem. DHB is not as big a reach as Williamson and really is, IMO, comparble to Ted Ginn. Again - if DHB has a real QB at Maryland, I think his production would be the same.

Either way, HUGE reach.

Harrison's team was also better. Significantly.

Thats irrelevant, Torry Holt just looked lost. Maybe it was the situation, but thats his only real excuse.

 

[StorminNorman]

*shakes head*

Even his naysayers who have him under Moreno seem to admit the sky is the limit for Wells, they just question his drive to get there. 4.37 40 with Jacobs esque power when he wants to is freakish. Moreno cannot touch either.

Jeff George had all the talent in the world. So did Ryan Leaf. I think Wells is extremely talented. Do I think he is going to get every bit out of that talent? No. I think Moreno's personality, his determination, his style make him a far superior prospect - and I think he has the talent to be a huge star.

Moreno is a sure thing, Wells is a boom/bust - you even acknowledged this.

Either way, HUGE reach.

Sure, but this is Oakland.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Jeff George had all the talent in the world. So did Ryan Leaf. I think Wells is extremely talented. Do I think he is going to get every bit out of that talent? No. I think Moreno's personality, his determination, his style make him a far superior prospect - and I think he has the talent to be a huge star.

plus, he went to Georgia

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

another interesting take. Let it be known I'm no fan of Sanchez either, especially on a team that's not running the WCO

Here's the real reason why Mark Sanchez is rocketing up the draft board (and why the Lions might be interested)

by Tom Kowalski | Opinion Tuesday April 21, 2009, 9:28 AM


There has been some speculation that USC quarterback Mark Sanchez has been rocketing up the draft board recently because, one, everyone is convinced the Detroit Lions are taking Matthew Stafford at No. 1 and, two, because Sanchez is interviewing very well. While both of those things might be true, that's not why Sanchez is suddenly creating so much buzz.

It's my experience that every year around this time there are a couple of players who suddenly appear much higher on the mock drafts of the media's top analysts. The reason for that is because, as the draft draws closer, these guys are getting more accurate info from NFL personnel people about which players are actually in the top 20.
And, while the media experts are pretty good at setting the field, they do miss on a couple of guys and these late adjustments are done to reflect that. This year, the biggest name on that list is Sanchez and we're finding out that NFL teams have him ranked much higher than originally believed. I even mentioned in the MLive Forum yesterday that I don't think you can totally discount the Lions taking a hard look at him for that No. 1 spot. It's not a coincidence that, in the last week or so, several analysts have jumped Sanchez ahead of Stafford on their boards for best-quarterback-available.
The fact that Sanchez had such a low-key visit to Detroit recently can only stir suspicions of the Lions' true interest. Maybe it's a smokescreen, maybe not.
Two other guys who are getting the Sanchez treatment are a couple of defensive ends -- Tennessee's Robert Ayers and LSU's Tyson Jackson. While Jackson has always been rated fairly high, Ayers has seen a signficant leap in his draft status. Both players are expected to go higher than media analysts were predicting just a week ago.

 

[Immortalfire]

plus, he went to Georgia

That's always a plus

 

[Excel]

ESPN did a pretty cool "All History draft"-

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=ages1/090420&sportCat=nfl

Note, its based on how they were viewed as prospects, thats why some of it seems ******ed (though how they took Calvin Johnson and Charles Rodgers over Randy Moss doesnt make much sense, seeing as Moss is the hands down the most physically gifted athlete to ever play WR in the NFL).

 

[Dark Donnie]

ESPN did a pretty cool "All History draft"-

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=ages1/090420&sportCat=nfl

Note, its based on how they were viewed as prospects, thats why some of it seems ******ed (though how they took Calvin Johnson and Charles Rodgers over Randy Moss doesnt make much sense, seeing as Moss is the hands down the most physically gifted athlete to ever play WR in the NFL).

The point of the mock was to show the most sure things coming out of College. Moss wasn't looked at as a sure thing because of his past.

As it says "this is based on professional expectations"...Rogers and Johnson were more highly regarded entering the draft.

I'd still take Johnson over Moss

 

[Excel]

6'4 with long arms, 4.25 forty (a full .10 faster than Johnsons), 45 inch vertical, hands like a net, 50 touchdowns in 2 seasons (compared to the what, 25 johnson had in 3 seasons at Georgia Tech?), incredible tape and the best deep route runner in college? How does a scout watch tape of a guy who can do this on a regular basis (and I wont include any of Moss's big catch and runs against slow dudes who cant tackle)

-
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and not think "Holy ****ing hell!" is outta their mind. Jerry Jones once said his worse moment as an owner was after the Thanksgiving game 1998 (where Moss, who he famously passed on, had 3 rec for 160 yards and 3 touchdowns) press conference where he had to explain to Dallas fans everywhere why Moss was not in a Cowboys uni.

Psh. Any scout woulda said Moss is the Mike Tyson/LeBron James of wide reciever; a guy whose physical skills are so beyond what anybody else had that he is truly in a league of his own. Even right now Calcin Johnson is *arguably* faster than Moss, but still has worse hands and ups. If you were to compare 2nd year Moss to 2nd year CJ...its no contest.

But, one poor drug test, 2 dozen "excessive celebration penalties", and a flunked drug test that got him bounced from FSU and that means hes a bad prospect.

It should be noted that Calvin Johnson also told teams he smoked maurijauna; perhaps they didnt care after seeing how stupid teams were for passing on Mos sover similar reasons.

 

[Dark Donnie]

Moss did alot more then just smoke pot....He beat a guy up and did jail time for it....so that had o be pretty serious.

Smoking Pot>Assault

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Psh. Any scout woulda said Moss is the Mike Tyson/LeBron James of wide reciever; a guy whose physical skills are so beyond what anybody else had that he is truly in a league of his own. Even right now Calcin Johnson is *arguably* faster than Moss, but still has worse hands and ups. If you were to compare 2nd year Moss to 2nd year CJ...its no contest.

.

Moss amassed big numbers in a second rate conference in college. Calvin Johnson destroyed the ACC and other big non-conference opponents. Johnson was labeled as the "greatest WR prospect to come out of college" not only because of physical abilities but because of his demeanor and attitude.

As for comparing them now, CJ hurt his back 4 games into his rookie year, and in his second season he played on the worst team in NFL history and was still a Pro Bowl alternate who nearly led the league in receiving TD's. .

Moss while a great athlete, has a 10 cent head. He's worn out his welcome in 2 different places now, and is notorious for taking plays off when the ball isnt coming his way.

But, one poor drug test, 2 dozen "excessive celebration penalties", and a flunked drug test that got him bounced from FSU and that means hes a bad prospect.

There was a lot more then that. He had a lot of off-field issues surrounding drugs and arrests. He also had a scholarship offer revoked from Notre Dame. FSU was his second choice. He wound up at Marshall out of desperation on his part. There were behavior issues at Marshall as well.

It should be noted that Calvin Johnson also told teams he smoked maurijauna; perhaps they didnt care after seeing how stupid teams were for passing on Mos sover similar reasons.

Calvin Johnson has no other off-field issues. Big difference there. Mposs showed his true colors when he went psycho on that metermaid in Minny.

 

[Excel]

A white kid at his high school called Moss black friend a ******; Moss "kicked him a few times while the kid was down" after several others had already beaten him up. Obviously bad, but any reasonable owner would say the kid had it coming. Thats what the cops did; Moss only got probation for it. That incident is what cost him his ride to Notre Dame. Prob. is that while at FSU red shirting, he failed a drug test for maurijauna, and being on probation, was put in jail. Enter Marshall, where his only behavior problem was endless celebratations for all of his touchdowns. There was an incident where he supposbly abused his girlfriend, but the girlfriends Father, who was present during the fight, said all Moss did was restrain her.

 

[Dark Donnie]

I thought he failed a drug test while locked up, resulting in his 30 day jail sentence extending to a 60 day?

 

[Excel]

I thought he failed a drug test while locked up, resulting in his 30 day jail sentence extending to a 60 day?

Something like that, I believe he got off early. I just found this from the SI 1998 draft preview:

One of the most physically gifted players to come along in several years.. Tremendous combination of size, speed, and AA....Explosive player, great agility and separation. Can get deep...Absolute mis-match in red zone with small DCs. Has the ability to make a tough catch without standing body control and adjust to the ball for a big man. He also has outstanding skills in the return game, and is very explosive, but probably will not be used in that role on the NFL level, because of his receiving skills. He is a great threat after the catch, and absolutely dominated on a lower level in the college ranks. There is no question about the physical skills that he will bring to the NFL.. However, there is a lot of baggage in this guy’s past.. He had negative experiences at Notre Dame and Florida St., and was sent packing for a variety of reasons.. Altercations with the law and other problems dotted his career early on. He has stayed out of trouble in his 1 1/2 years at Marshall, but he will be under the NFL microscope going into the draft. If he passes all the physical and mental testing with flying colors, he could be a top five pick. However, if the character and off the field questions continue to persist, he could be another great player that starts to drop on draft day. But, if this guy keeps his head on straight, he is headed for greatness.

Well he hasnt kept it on straight but hes achieved greatness anyway.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Well he hasnt kept it on straight but hes achieved greatness anyway.

He has? He's a Pro Bowl player no doubt, but to call him one of the "great" ones? I'll hold off on that one for now. Mount Randy is about overdue for an eruption.

 

[Excel]

He has? He's a Pro Bowl player no doubt, but to call him one of the "great" ones? I'll hold off on that one for now. Mount Randy is about overdue for an eruption.

Seeing as, barring major injury, hes a lock to finish #2 in yards and td all time with an otuside shot at #1 all time in touchdowns; plus rookie season and single season touchdown totals? The main weapon in the 2 greatest offenses ever?

He has found greatness, no doubt about that.

Plus only rookie ever to lead league in jersey salles?

 

[Cmill216]

Randy Moss is one of the five greatest wide receivers in NFL history. I don't see how that's even remotely debatable. The guy changed the way people viewed the value of the position.

Everytime you run into these Calvin Johnson's, Roy Williams's, and Fitzgerald's of the world, who do the scouts always compare them to?

 

[Excel]

Everytime you run into these Calvin Johnson's, Roy Williams's, and Fitzgerald's of the world, who do the scouts always compare them to?

1. They are compared to Randy, and
2. Always fall short.

People talk like Calvin Johnson is God himself; like when he retires he has a shot to be hailed as one of the greatest ever. On any given day, Calvin Johnson is doing his best Randy Moss impression; thats a fact.

I say that, barring injury or an emotional, Owens esque collapse, Moss has 5 seasons left in him. Even if his speed totally dies and he cant get open deep at will anymore, he will be a red-zone mismatch as long as he plays (6'4, long hands). He'll be Mossing people as long as he wishes. Lets say he averaged 10 touchdowns per season over those 5 years (prob. an under estimation considering hopefully at least his next 2 seaons will be spent in NE with Brady). That puts him at 185 touchdowns through 16 seasons; easily the 2nd highest touchdown total ever. Only Jerry Rice, who would have played 4 more seasons than Moss, woud be ahead with 197.

Or, in otherwords, there is a VERY real chance Randy Moss retires from the NFL as #1 All Time in touchdown reception; a record Moss would obviously much closer to had he spent his whole carreer with a top 5 all time QB like Rice had through his 1st 11 seasons.

 

[Dark Donnie]

Difference is Moss had much better QB's and was on much better teams. Calvin Johnson plays on The Lions.

 

[Excel]

Difference is Moss had much better QB's and was on much better teams. Calvin Johnson plays on The Lions.

Wah?

In Moss's 1st season, his QB's were Brad Johnson for 1 game and Randall Cunningham for the other 15. Cunningham had BARELY played the previous year. Johnson had Jon Kitna in his 1st season, whose clearly better than B. Johnson and was more fresh than Cunningham. While Randy had to "fight" for rec. with Cris Carter, CJ had to fight with Roy Williams. Randy had over 1300 yards and 17 touchdowns. Johnson had 700 yards and 4 touchdowns.

Its not the QBs talent moreso that it was Moss allowing his QBs to have freakish statistic seaons; Brady is a pefrect example. His career high in TD was 28, he gets Moss and suddenly its 50

 

[StorminNorman]

Moss was playing on a team that went 15-1.

Johnson was playing on a team that just went 0-16.

Johnson has the ability to be a better WR than Randy Moss is simply because he has similar tools to work with, similar talent to play with and with a far far far better head on his shoulders.

 

[Excel]

It went 15-1 because they had the greatest offense ever until the Pats 2007; Moss alone would outscore teams. Why isnt Calvin doing that?

*Note I love me some some Calvin Johnson he and Roddy White were my wrs in my main fantasy league last year so

 

[StorminNorman]

If Moss was so good that he could out perform Calvin Johnson in the same situation...explain Oakland.

There is no way to argue that Detroit is a better team than Oakland was.

 

[Mastodon123]

CJ had 1,331 yards, and 12 TDs last season. He probably would have been a pro bowler if he hadn't been Detroit Lion. Imagine what he could do if he was on a winning team.

You also see people questioning Roy Williams just because he came from the Lions, and he went to the pro bowl in 2007.

 

[StorminNorman]

Matthew Stafford makes Calvin Johnson a perennial Pro Bowler.

Calvin Johnson makes Matthew Stafford a perennial Pro Bowler.

Both are helped by the fact that Kevin Smith can be a Pro Bowler.

 

[Excel]

We'll see. Johnson got robbed of the pro bowl though I forget the other NFC guys who went. However whether he makes Stafford a pro bowl dude I dunno. If they bench Staff for 09 in favor him being the guy in 2010 I could see Staff-CJ being a wannabe Culpepper-Moss.

If Moss was so good that he could out perform Calvin Johnson in the same situation...explain Oakland.

Ill explain it like this; Moss is so smart that he knows if he produced even remotely well in Oakland, theres no way he gets traded to a team with a real qb. So he sucks for a season, gets traded, and makes up for it and then some the next year in NE

But, if Calvin was on a winning team? I dunno, but you do gotta think him getting 50% of the pass looks helps him out.