2011 NFL Thread: The Lazarus Season - Part 7

[Wheels]

I can because it shows they did not learn from their mistakes. The Colts have far bigger needs than the quarterback position. They need to build a team that can work when a single player is taken out of the equation. What if Luck is a bust? What if he gets hurt? Then their entire franchise is up in smoke again. They need to build a team. Not one position.

Fair enough. I would rather Luck see Luck go somewhere else anyway.

 

[Ness]

The difference is, Rodgers wasn't NFL ready. Luck is. Luck is being touted as the best draft prospect since John Elway. He doesn't need time on the bench. All that time on the bench will do is make him stagnate.

That is simply speculation ready. How many players have been touted as "NFL ready since so and so" only to have a disappointing professional career? Reggie Bush was supposed to be the best runningback to come out of college since Barry Sanders.

Sitting on the bench wouldn't make Luck worse. It's not like he still wouldn't get plenty opportunities to gain experience via reps, training camp, preseason action, and spot duty in games if he were to go to the Colts for instance.

 

[Ness]

I can because it shows they did not learn from their mistakes. The Colts have far bigger needs than the quarterback position. They need to build a team that can work when a single player is taken out of the equation. What if Luck is a bust? What if he gets hurt? Then their entire franchise is up in smoke again. They need to build a team. Not one position.

They did that though early on in Manning's career. The last five or so years have been terrible in terms of drafting. But if this was the 2003 Colts playing without Manning they would have won a few games without him. You take a look at their first round picks from 1998 - 2004 and that is a slam dunk run with selections from the first round. 2005 up until now has been disappointing overall.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Edgerrin James
3. Rob Morris
4. Reggie Wayne
5. Dwight Freeney
6. Dallas Clark
7. Bob Sanders

Whether they take Andrew Luck and/or keep Peyton Manning they need to do a better job in their scouting department in picking talent. That doesn't mean they could trade the pick for Andrew Luck to acquire a bunch of other picks so they'll have more to improve the team. A quarterback for the next 15 years that could be a good starter for you is still important. Even if you had a good team all around, a quarterback still puts you over the hump. I can't see the Saints, Packers, Steelers, or Patriots being at the top of the mountain season after season without a good signal caller.

 

[Immortalfire]

I guess you don't watch college football then?

Absolutely I do. But Utah, Cal and Delaware don't get a ton of publicity.

 

[kane9321]

Rodgers would've done just as bad in San Fran as Smith though. Unlike Green Bay he would not have had the proper system, players or coaches to support his growth not to mention he would've been thrust into a starting position right off the bat. Rodgers was not ready to start in the NFL. Neither was Smith. Smith may be a half way decent QB today if he was given time to sit on the bench, hold a clipboard and learn. Rodgers benefited from sitting for a couple seasons. Luck won't.

Ive been saying this for 7 yrs. People just dont want to listen. When alex was thrown to the wolves, we had no offensive line, recievers..and no coaching,while aaron rodgers sat and soaked up knowledge from farve and just had a great team when brett finally left green bay. But we did have frank goret:

 

[Matt]

They did that though early on in Manning's career. The last five or so years have been terrible in terms of drafting. But if this was the 2003 Colts playing without Manning they would have won a few games without him. You take a look at their first round picks from 1998 - 2004 and that is a slam dunk run with selections from the first round. 2005 up until now has been disappointing overall.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Edgerrin James
3. Rob Morris
4. Reggie Wayne
5. Dwight Freeney
6. Dallas Clark
7. Bob Sanders

Whether they take Andrew Luck and/or keep Peyton Manning they need to do a better job in their scouting department in picking talent. That doesn't mean they could trade the pick for Andrew Luck to acquire a bunch of other picks so they'll have more to improve the team. A quarterback for the next 15 years that could be a good starter for you is still important. Even if you had a good team all around, a quarterback still puts you over the hump. I can't see the Saints, Packers, Steelers, or Patriots being at the top of the mountain season after season without a good signal caller.

A quarterback can put you over the hump, but Bill Cowher proved time and time again that you can be competitive without one. Patriots went 11-5 without Brady (who was a 6th round pick, mind you). Alex Smith is having a decent season. With the right coaching and support a team can survive and compete with an average QB.

Not to mention, there is no immediate need in Indy. Manning just got a very encouraging report and is practicing again. He could stay in Indianapolis for another 3 or 4 years. Meanwhile, by trading their first pick to a team like Seattle or Miami, with what they get they can build a young and solid foundation for when the day comes that they NEED a quarterback. They have the most valuable pick in the 2012 NFL draft. To waste it on a quarterback, says to me, that Bill Polian has not learned from his mistake of building his whole team around said quarterback. Great pre-2005 picks aside or not, that was nearly 7 years ago. This is now. Polian has become complacent and his football philosophy is little more than, "Let a great quarterback carry a mediocre team."

 

[Matt]

Ive been saying this for 7 yrs. People just dont want to listen. When alex was thrown to the wolves, we had no offensive line, recievers..and no coaching, But we did have frank goret:

Mind you, even if the drafts were reversed and Alex Smith went to Green Bay, he still wouldn't be nearly as good as Aaron Rodgers, I'm not saying that. But he would be decent. Maybe in the range of someone like Carson Palmer or Eli Manning but hardly elite. At any rate, I think that the ship has sailed on Alex Smith. He's having a good season, but it won't last. A Kurt Warner he is not. More like a Rex Grossman or Kyle Orton, one or two good seasons, then ****.

San Fran should really consider going after someone like Matt Barkley or Landry Jones. If Harbaugh can take Alex Smith and turn him into a passable NFL quarterback, then imagine what he can do with a somewhat unspectacular rookie who can still be shaped and molded. Hell, if Indy is dealing, they should make a serious run at trading up for Luck.

 

[steintym]

Which begs the question: why don't the Bears get a veteran QB instead of playing Hanie? I know that McNabb is washed-up, but he was also from Chicago and imo he could be better than Hanie. Anyway, it just seems like the Bears are accepting their fate without doing anything about it.

I was really hoping they would have been able to pick up Orton when he was available.

Not properly addressing the back up QB spot is really biting them now. It doesn't speak well for the organization that Hanie is the guy they've been "developing" and this is the outcome.

 

[Hound55]

And how many years could they be waiting for an Andrew Luck when they do "Need a quarterback".

How many more seasons can we really expect from Peyton Manning?

Just because he's "NFL ready" doesn't mean he's necessarily going to decline in a year or two while he sits. If Luck was a project who had a huge upside but was not yet NFL ready would that somehow make it a better idea?

Elite QBs come across, what, 3 every decade? So when you have a real shot at getting a probable one, when your current elite QB is in his final years before injury will force him out, I say take him.

I liken it to the Spurs drafting Tim Duncan when they already had David Robinson in the NBA.

 

[Matt]

I was really hoping they would have been able to pick up Orton when he was available.

Not properly addressing the back up QB spot is really biting them now. It doesn't speak well for the organization that Hanie is the guy they've been "developing" and this is the outcome.

Honestly, I know that Lovie was on the rocks prior to having an impressive season last year....if he allows this season to slip away from him, it may be time to change leadership.

Without Forte Chicago could very well go either 8-8 or even lose out for 7-9. They were looking like the dark horse team of the NFC who could possibly compete with and beat Green Bay and/or New Orleans. Now, by keeping Hanie they are looking like they are throwing in the towel and admitting defeat. McNabb is out there. He isn't stellar, but I gotta think that he can put up more than three points.

 

[Hound55]

I was really hoping they would have been able to pick up Orton when he was available.

Not properly addressing the back up QB spot is really biting them now. It doesn't speak well for the organization that Hanie is the guy they've been "developing" and this is the outcome.

Your O line is so poor I couldn't imagine ANY back-up being able to come in, get comfortable and succeed, you had Cutler who had time to kind of get used to receiving no cover and the second he went down... well... you were pretty much screwed from the get go.

 

[kane9321]

Mind you, even if the drafts were reversed and Alex Smith went to Green Bay, he still wouldn't be nearly as good as Aaron Rodgers, I'm not saying that. But he would be decent. Maybe in the range of someone like Carson Palmer or Eli Manning but hardly elite. At any rate, I think that the ship has sailed on Alex Smith. He's having a good season, but it won't last. A Kurt Warner he is not. More like a Rex Grossman or Kyle Orton, one or two good seasons, then ****.

San Fran should really consider going after someone like Matt Barkley or Landry Jones. If Harbaugh can take Alex Smith and turn him into a passable NFL quarterback, then imagine what he can do with a somewhat unspectacular rookie who can still be shaped and molded. Hell, if Indy is dealing, they should make a serious run at trading up for Luck.

I think the sky's the limit for alex, with harbaugh coaching and with greg roman calling the plays in the booth..he can be "that"qb for the 49ers. We have colin kaepernick waiting in the wings..as a backupt: I hate mike nolan and mike singletary so much for ruining alex those first 6yrs

 

[steintym]

The Bears aren't completely out of it yet. I'm actually very interested to see how the Bears defense handles Tebow. I think it would be great to see the Bears swallow them up and get a big win so that we can shut up some of these sports analyst guys who believe that Tebow is this super awesome quarterback. Honestly, I think he's all right but he's going off a LOT of luck.

I think the Bears defense should be fine against Tebow's offense. The problem will be the Bears offense against the Broncos defense.

I think the Bears need to get several take aways, something the Broncos have been avoiding, in order to pull this out.

If not ... the free fall continues and Bears fans continue to hope for miraculous healing for Cutler and Forte.

 

[steintym]

Honestly, I know that Lovie was on the rocks prior to having an impressive season last year....if he allows this season to slip away from him, it may be time to change leadership.

Without Forte Chicago could very well go either 8-8 or even lose out for 7-9. They were looking like the dark horse team of the NFC who could possibly compete with and beat Green Bay and/or New Orleans. Now, by keeping Hanie they are looking like they are throwing in the towel and admitting defeat. McNabb is out there. He isn't stellar, but I gotta think that he can put up more than three points.

Every time it looks like Lovie might have one foot out the door the team responds with a successful season like last year. The success from last season, along with the uncertainity with the lockout, ensured Lovie coming back.

I would have liked Lovie gone several years ago.

 

[Matt]

And how many years could they be waiting for an Andrew Luck when they do "Need a quarterback".

How many more seasons can we really expect from Peyton Manning?

Just because he's "NFL ready" doesn't mean he's necessarily going to decline in a year or two while he sits. If Luck was a project who had a huge upside but was not yet NFL ready would that somehow make it a better idea?

Elite QBs come across, what, 3 every decade? So when you have a real shot at getting a probable one, when your current elite QB is in his final years before injury will force him out, I say take him.

I liken it to the Spurs drafting Tim Duncan when they already had David Robinson in the NBA.

And an elite quarterback will mean nothing if he doesn't have the team to back him up.

Plus it is all speculation about whether Luck will actually be elite. Honestly, I think that the Colts will be bad for his career. That entire system is designed by Peyton Manning FOR Peyton Manning. Do you think as Peyton starts he is going to say, "Hold on, let me change some things up to make our rookie second stringer more comfortable?"

Then Peyton retires and attempts to get into broadcasting (as he clearly wants to do) and then what? You are left with whatever puppet of Peyton coach is wearing the headset at the time to guide a young rookie quarterback and build a system around him? Tony Dungy or Tom Moore won't be there to foster his development.

I could be wrong, but I truly believe that Luck going to Indy will be a disaster. I'm talking a disaster of Ryan Leaf proportions. But I don't think it will happen. It was made very clear on Sunday that Peyton runs that franchise by order of Jim Irsay and Peyton is not ready to share.

 

[enterthemadness]

Matt Moore is gonna outplay Vick and Miami wins 38-17. Nice DREAM TEAM PHILLY CHEESESTEAKS

 

[steintym]

And how many years could they be waiting for an Andrew Luck when they do "Need a quarterback".

How many more seasons can we really expect from Peyton Manning?

Just because he's "NFL ready" doesn't mean he's necessarily going to decline in a year or two while he sits. If Luck was a project who had a huge upside but was not yet NFL ready would that somehow make it a better idea?

Elite QBs come across, what, 3 every decade? So when you have a real shot at getting a probable one, when your current elite QB is in his final years before injury will force him out, I say take him.

I liken it to the Spurs drafting Tim Duncan when they already had David Robinson in the NBA.

I agree, if they can make it work, I don't see the problem with keeping Manning and drafting Luck. With Manning's huge roster bonus coming up, I'm not sure it is a workable situation, though. The Colts would have a ton of money tied up in one position and Manning would become unmoveable at that point.

 

[Matt]

I think the sky's the limit for alex, with harbaugh coaching and with greg roman calling the plays in the booth..he can be "that"qb for the 49ers. We have colin kaepernick waiting in the wings..as a backupt: I hate mike nolan and mike singletary so much for ruining alex those first 6yrs

I don't think he will ever be good enough to carry the team on a deep playoff run or anything like that. Plus, if you take Frank Gore out of the picture and put the offense on Smith's shoulders...I could see a massive collapse.

I think it is easy to get lost in the excitement right now, but if San Fran has a shot at something better, they have to take it. Objectively look at Smith's stats this year. All that he has shown is that he would be a tremendous backup.

Every time it looks like Lovie might have one foot out the door the team responds with a successful season like last year. The success from last season, along with the uncertainity with the lockout, ensured Lovie coming back.

I would have liked Lovie gone several years ago.

Lovie is like a better version of Marvin Lewis.

What is it with that Tony Dungy coaching tree though? Any time there is adversity, they just stand around and watch their team collapse, make no adjustments, no roster moves, no attempts to fix the problems, etc.

 

[Hound55]

I would neither expect, nor want, Manning to change things up to make the Colts offense more digestible.

If they draft Luck, I'd be drafting him to learn from the best. Making the reads, audibles as appropriate. If they were just going to dumb things down I wouldn't see any point in taking him in the first place.

Could you really imagine him scoring a major broadcasting gig, with that voice, on a network large enough to be "worthy" of taking him from coaching?

I don't think he'd leave for anything regional, and I may well self-harm if I had to hear him on a regular basis.

 

[Hound55]

Actually, that's not exactly true... Even if they were going to dumb things down, there'd still be a point because I can't imagine Manning will hold up for more than a couple of years. They have too many holes in that team to just make adjustments, without Manning they'd need a major re-build and you might as well start that with a quality QB.

 

[Matt]

I would neither expect, nor want, Manning to change things up to make the Colts offense more digestible.

If they draft Luck, I'd be drafting him to learn from the best. Making the reads, audibles as appropriate. If they were just going to dumb things down I wouldn't see any point in taking him in the first place.

Could you really imagine him scoring a major broadcasting gig, with that voice, on a network large enough to be "worthy" of taking him from coaching?

I don't think he'd leave for anything regional, and I may well self-harm if I had to hear him on a regular basis.

One of the major studios will take him for the same reason than TNT took Shaq (despite not needing him as they have Barkley). His name and legacy will get viewers to watch. My guess is that NBC will put him in the studio. Especially if Dungy is still there because they can hype up the Super Bowl winning coach and quarterback, together again.

The thing is, Manning will work with Manning and starters to win games. Painter has been sitting behind Peyton for three years and he isn't exactly doing what Peyton does in that system. The myth that Peyton is going to take young Luck under his wing and become his own personal quarterback coach is ridiculous. Peyton and Luck's relationship would be exactly what that of any QB and their backup is. Luck will hold the clipboard for Peyton while he is on the field.

 

[Matt]

Actually, that's not exactly true... Even if they were going to dumb things down, there'd still be a point because I can't imagine Manning will hold up for more than a couple of years. They have too many holes in that team to just make adjustments, without Manning they'd need a major re-build and you might as well start that with a quality QB.

The point is money. Peyton isn't going to dumb things down. Jim Irsay will not expect Peyton to dumb things down. The Colts are too short-sighted of a franchise. They will expect Luck to enter into the personally designed Manning system and succeed. Plus, the fact of the matter is, too much money is invested in Peyton at this point. The Colts need to pick. Peyton or Luck. Guaranteed money in Peyton's contract makes me think it'll be him.

I agree that drafting Luck would be the smart thing to do IF and only IF they are willing to swallow the guaranteed money, cut Manning, fire Caldwell and build up from the ground. I don't give Polian and Irsay that much credit though.

 

[steintym]

Considering some of the other retired players that have moved into broadcasting ... I don't think Manning would be that much of a stretch. Shannon Sharpe comes to mind first. I cannot believe he has a job SPEAKING.

 

[Matt]

Considering some of the other retired players that have moved into broadcasting ... I don't think Manning would be that much of a stretch. Shannon Sharpe comes to mind first. I cannot believe he has a job SPEAKING.

In fairness, Peyton's accent makes him impossible to comprehend, especially when it is not scripted with several takes to cover it up. His interview on NFL Today this past Sunday seriously made him sound like Foghorn Leghorn. That being said, someone will hire him to sit in their studio simply because he is Peyton Manning.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Which begs the question: why don't the Bears get a veteran QB instead of playing Hanie? I know that McNabb is washed-up, but he was also from Chicago and imo he could be better than Hanie. Anyway, it just seems like the Bears are accepting their fate without doing anything about it.

Martz's system is insanely complex. If they brought in a new QB like McNabb, who has no experience in that kind of system, by the time he was able to learn enough to function, the season will be over.