A Case For Creation

[Henry Hill]

See, that's what you guys are doing here. Somehow an explosion placed the the sun at the perfect temperature, the earth in just the right spot, the earth spinning yet tilting on its axis and orbiting the sun, the moon with enough magnetic pull to effect our tides. ....never moving out of place. Any closer we'd burn up....any further we freeze. This came from an explosion???
That puzzle was put together by someone. That whole scenario requires someone to put it all in place and maintain it

And say there is someone, who's to say that it's your religion's someone?

 

[Kessel Day]

And say there is someone, who's to say that it's your religion's someone?

well, first you might want to winnow out religions that say the earth was made from some demi-god's intestines or some other such thing.

 

[bored]

You cannot get order from chaos unless a mind is guiding the chaos.....reigning it in to order and balance. All I continue to hear from you guys are insults and personal attacks. Answer this:

What are the chances of getting a loose jigsaw puzzle to fall into place if you throw it in the air? How many times would it take for each piece to land in its place???

See, that's what you guys are doing here. Somehow an explosion placed the the sun at the perfect temperature, the earth in just the right spot, the earth spinning yet tilting on its axis and orbiting the sun, the moon with enough magnetic pull to effect our tides. ....never moving out of place. Any closer we'd burn up....any further we freeze. This came from an explosion???
That puzzle was put together by someone. That whole scenario requires someone to put it all in place and maintain it.



THIS PICTURE WILL ANGER YOU GUYS!!

Several comments, celldog. First, why do you claim that 'all' you hear from the people who disagree with you is insulting and attacking? When have I insulted you/made personal attacks? Btw, if you want to people to listen to you and take you seriously, don't complain about them making personal attacks and insults, then turn around and attack them at the end of your post. It's nothing but hypocritical.

Next: you misunderstand the concept of the Big Bang. All of that didn't just happen in an instant. It took countless years for everything to reach the point it's at now, and it is believed that the universe is still expanding, so this isn't exactly the final stage of anything. Going on, how do we know the sun is at the 'perfect' temperature? How is any temperature perfect? And as for the Earth's tilt and distance to the sun (as well as the moon), keep in mind that these are the results of gravity, and there are (as far as we know) eight other planets in this solar system alone that are NOT in the right vicinity for life. Earth is just the one that happens to be the right distance to sustain life, for the time being, at least.

 

[bored]

well, first you might want to winnow out religions that say the earth was made from some demi-god's intestines or some other such thing.

But therein lies a new problem: how would you prove to those who believe that that it isn't true?

 

[Kessel Day]

But therein lies a new problem: how would you prove to those who believe that that it isn't true?

science, naturally.

the Bible, on the other hand, is scientifically correct where it speaks of such things. (although it is not a science book - no dinosaurs mentioned, nor aardvarks either.)

the Bible's account of creation in Genesis, if read from the point of view of someone standing on the earth, is just as scientists describe. "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". the stars and the earth are billions of years old. God then prepared the earth for habitation. that process is described in Genesis.

 

[Henry Hill]

well, first you might want to winnow out religions that say the earth was made from some demi-god's intestines or some other such thing.

But The Bible says similar things, such as God created Adam with dust and Eve with one of his ribs.

 

[sithgoblin]

i disagree, sithgoblin. surely atheists don't think they can prove there is no God. therefore, atheists' "belief" that there is no God is just that, a "belief".

First of all atheists (at least, this atheist) do not ‘believe that god does not exist’. That suggests that we accept there is a god but choose out of perversity not to believe in him. It sounds like a nit-picky point, but I think it’s important to try and spot the hidden assumptions that lie beneath what people actually say.

Atheism is not, as far as I am concerned, a leap of faith, any more than my fairly solid conviction that the moon is not made of green cheese is a leap of faith. I see no reason to suppose that it is made of green cheese and an abundance of evidence that it is not.

To have ‘faith’ that it is would seem to me to be not only not virtuous, but actually silly. Would I do better to keep an open mind, based on the outside possibility that we are all the subjects of a gigantic, universe-wide Capricorn One-type hoax? I don’t think so.

And if a million people – or a billion – announced that it had become a matter of deep personal conviction for them that the moon was made of green cheese should I reconsider my position on that basis? I don’t think so – it wouldn’t be the first or last time that a billion people had believed something false to be true on no good evidence.

And would my common sense conviction that the moon was not made of green cheese have to be characterised in that context as a ‘leap of faith’? I don’t think so.

 

[celldog]

Celldog, you brushed off the question last time, what Christian denomination do you practice?

Why is that important in this discussion? All Christians should hold the word of God in highest position.

I know you no longer practice as a Catholic.

 

[celldog]

And say there is someone, who's to say that it's your religion's someone?

At that point we compare the writings of each belief system. By the standards of Manuscripts, Archeaology, Prophecy and Statistical Probability,
no other ancient written has been proven over and over again to more accurate.

But let's stay on subject. See........this is where the topic can change.

 

[celldog]

Several comments, celldog. First, why do you claim that 'all' you hear from the people who disagree with you is insulting and attacking? When have I insulted you/made personal attacks? Btw, if you want to people to listen to you and take you seriously, don't complain about them making personal attacks and insults, then turn around and attack them at the end of your post. It's nothing but hypocritical.

"It's no less silly than believing in a creator period you braindead moron."
Posted by Maxwell Smart

"I really don't have to make fun of these people. They make fun of themselves." Posted by Lord Siva

"There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed." Anon - Posted by Bill


These are just a few.


Next: you misunderstand the concept of the Big Bang. All of that didn't just happen in an instant. It took countless years for everything to reach the point it's at now, and it is believed that the universe is still expanding, so this isn't exactly the final stage of anything. Going on, how do we know the sun is at the 'perfect' temperature? How is any temperature perfect? And as for the Earth's tilt and distance to the sun (as well as the moon), keep in mind that these are the results of gravity, and there are (as far as we know) eight other planets in this solar system alone that are NOT in the right vicinity for life. Earth is just the one that happens to be the right distance to sustain life, for the time being, at least.

No. You assume that I miss understand it. That's what atheist do in this instance. They keep giving themselves more time. But all the time in the world does not increase probability. Space does not permit a full discussion of the evidence for and against the big bang. However, many discoveries made in recent years with improved instruments and improved observational methods have repeatedly shaken this theory.5 Interpretations of the available facts in terms of currently held cosmological models very quickly lead to unresolvable inconsistencies. There is an increasing number of astronomers who raise substantial arguments against the theory.

If the universe came from a big bang, then matter should be evenly distributed. However, the universe contains an extremely uneven distribution of mass. This means that matter is concentrated into zones and planes around relatively empty regions. Two astronomers, Geller and Huchra, embarked on a measuring program expecting to find evidence to support the big bang model. By compiling large star maps, they hoped to demonstrate that matter is uniformly distributed throughout the cosmos (when a large enough scale is considered). But those are just a few regions.

 

[Bill]

science, naturally.

the Bible, on the other hand, is scientifically correct where it speaks of such things. (although it is not a science book - no dinosaurs mentioned, nor aardvarks either.)

the Bible's account of creation in Genesis, if read from the point of view of someone standing on the earth, is just as scientists describe. "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". the stars and the earth are billions of years old. God then prepared the earth for habitation. that process is described in Genesis.

So, why then does the order of creation not match the fossil record?

 

[Bill]

No. You assume that I miss understand it. That's what atheist do in this instance. They keep giving themselves more time. But all the time in the world does not increase probability. Space does not permit a full discussion of the evidence for and against the big bang. However, many discoveries made in recent years with improved instruments and improved observational methods have repeatedly shaken this theory.5 Interpretations of the available facts in terms of currently held cosmological models very quickly lead to unresolvable inconsistencies. There is an increasing number of astronomers who raise substantial arguments against the theory.

If the universe came from a big bang, then matter should be evenly distributed. However, the universe contains an extremely uneven distribution of mass. This means that matter is concentrated into zones and planes around relatively empty regions. Two astronomers, Geller and Huchra, embarked on a measuring program expecting to find evidence to support the big bang model. By compiling large star maps, they hoped to demonstrate that matter is uniformly distributed throughout the cosmos (when a large enough scale is considered). But those are just a few regions.

You know, the above is blatent plagarism and dishonest. The text is from here, but you weave it into your post as if they're your words with no credit given to the original author or a link to the source. You've done this repeatedly throughout this thread.

And this: "There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed." Anon - Posted by Bill was a quote you chose to take personally.

How's about from now on we put the proper credit to our quotes that we steal from other sites. Okay?

 

[Addendum]

The picture you posted, celldog, stirred no emotions of any kind within me.

 

[logansoldcigar]

I've had experiences with Astral projection.

salt on the back of your tongue at bedtime, with a glass of water on the far side of the room. apparently, the best way to induce astral projection. then its a matter of learning control and gradually reducing the stimuli.

 

[Maxwell Smart]

If the Universe is infinite then all possibilities exist. You don't need someone to put this together, the endless amount of chances is enough.

salt on the back of your tongue at bedtime, with a glass of water on the far side of the room. apparently, the best way to induce astral projection. then its a matter of learning control and gradually reducing the stimuli.

Oh...kay

 

[Maxwell Smart]

Atheism is NOT a religion. It is a lack of belief in any deities, which does not include any other beliefs. Its not a belief system because it only includes one belief(or lack there of of one belief).

Those who insist Atheism is a religion are assuming belief=religion. There are tons of people who believe in God but don't have a religion, believe it or not.

 

[Danalys]

religion is institutionalised belief all else is spiritual. i don't like the word spiritual tho since is has connotations of the supernatural. perhaps sensual or it makes sense is better.

 

[Addendum]

The definition for atheism that we use, put simply, says that atheism is the lack of a god-belief, the absence of theism, to whatever degree and for whatever reason. The one thing that all atheists have in common, according to this definition, is that they are not theists. One either believes one or more of the various claims for the existence of a god or gods (is a theist) or one does not believe any of those claims (is an atheist). Though we do not recognize any "middle ground," we do acknowledge the agnostic position, which spans both theism and atheism: a theistic agnostic thinks one or more gods exist but can say no more on the subject than this (is a theist); an atheistic agnostic doesn't know if any gods exist (lacks a god belief, and is thus an atheist). Noncognitivists think all god-talk is meaningless, and thus lack any god beliefs (are atheists).


To assume that atheism involves more than the absence of theism is an error. Atheists are not necessarily Communists (though some are). Atheists are not necessarily immoral or "wicked" (though some are). Atheists do not necessarily assert that "no gods exist" (though some do). Atheism is but one component of an atheist's larger philosophical outlook and can influence that outlook, but atheism is never itself that primary outlook.

Some atheists simply lack belief (or even awareness) while others have carefully considered the various claims and have either found them unconvincing or have flat-out rejected them as pure falsehood. Even if a person has never heard someone claim that a god or gods exist, that person lacks theism and is therefore, technically, an atheist. Nevertheless, most atheists would convert to theism if presented with a convincing argument, be they people who have yet to encounter claims for the existence of gods, or be they people who have honestly and carefully considered and rejected those claims that they have encountered.

One very important feature of the atheistic position is the fact that we are dealing entirely with claims -- claims that various deities exist. In discussing claims, it is always the person making the claim who is responsible for providing evidence and strong argument. The person listening to the claim need not make any argument at all. And the listener does not need to disprove a claim in order to reject it. If the person making the claim fails to make a convincing case, the listener rightly rejects the claim as falsehood (or suspends judgment, based upon the strength of the claim). In either event, the listener ends up lacking a belief in the object of the claim. While the world's atheists have assembled a vast and powerful arsenal of anti-theistic arguments, it is never the atheist's responsibility to prove or disprove anything. That job belongs to the person making the claim, which, in this discussion, is the theist.

And in lieu of hearing a convincing argument for the existence of gods, we remain without theistic beliefs: We remain atheists.

From the website Positive Atheism

 

[Danalys]

that's a great bit a writing by them.

 

[E. Bison]

I had never heard of AtheistEmprie.com, but I found this appropriately fitting little list there:

TOP TEN SIGNS YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN​

10- You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.

9- You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt

8- You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god

7- Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" -- including women, children, and trees!

6- You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5- You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.

4- You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects -- will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving".

3- While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.

2- You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1- You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but still call yourself a Christian

​

Hilarious!! Even as a Christian myself, even I, BISON, admit to this all being true.

 

[celldog]

You know, the above is blatent plagarism and dishonest. The text is from here, but you weave it into your post as if they're your words with no credit given to the original author or a link to the source. You've done this repeatedly throughout this thread.

And this: "There are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed." Anon - Posted by Bill was a quote you chose to take personally.

How's about from now on we put the proper credit to our quotes that we steal from other sites. Okay?

Is the information true or false? You didn't respond to it. Instead you worry about where I got my information and accuse me of plagarism. What is your answer to the information?

And who says that the Biblical record doesn't agree with fossil record? That's certainly up for debate...even among Christians. Some believe in old earth. Some think it's young earth. All of this is based a literal 6 days or day ages (the "Day of the Lord"...etc.) could be a long period of time.

Either way, this takes nothing away from the main thrust of scripture which is God's plan for sinful mankind. His love for sinners like you and me. It's the typical diversion for those that don't want to believe. Sorta' like where did Cain get his wife. Even if the creation story is cloudy. The life of Christ is crystal clear.

 

[Danalys]

he was saying you weren't thinking for yourself. take disparate information and come to unique conclusions instead.

 

[celldog]

science, naturally.

the Bible, on the other hand, is scientifically correct where it speaks of such things. (although it is not a science book - no dinosaurs mentioned, nor aardvarks either.)

the Bible's account of creation in Genesis, if read from the point of view of someone standing on the earth, is just as scientists describe. "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". the stars and the earth are billions of years old. God then prepared the earth for habitation. that process is described in Genesis.

The book of Job does mention some creatures that many believe to be dinosaurs. Chater 40 Behemoth and Leviathon

 

[celldog]

he's saying you're not thinking for yourself. take disparate information and come to a unique conclusions instead.

I know what he's saying. What I'm saying is that I agree with the conclusions. Heck....doesn't every thing we know come from some where else...someone else????? Yes! He didn't come out being an Atheist. I wasn't born a believer. Somebody told us about both. I accepted the creation account because it made more sense to me. Bill did the same with his view.

Not one of us on these boards have an orginal thought. Say you do, and you're lying.

 

[Addendum]

I'm not lying.

I'm sitting in my chair in front of my PC.