A Case For Creation

[Man-Thing]

"Though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things." 2 Cor 10:3,4

"I [Jesus] say to you who are listening, Continue to love your enemies, to do good to those hating you, to bless those cursing you, to pray for those who are insulting you." Luke 6:27,28

"Jesus said to him: 'Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." Matt 26:52

see also Rom 13:1,5-7; Mark 12:17 and Act 5:28,29

I hold a different view than the JW's regarding the military and self defense. Of course no Christian should be violent, and of course every Christian should be seperated from the world, but the scripture you give in Roman's (if read in context) says that those who bear the sword are ministers of God (I don't know what the NWT say's but I believe you read the NASB too.)

Anyway, those that bear the sword (military/police) but not vigilantes do so to administer justice which has been ordained from God.

King David engaged in many violent acts of warfare. This wasn't evil, but the position he held in his heart is what made it evil. God didn't allow him to be the one to build his temple because "he loved war".

When Jesus was speaking to Roman military personel, he didn't tell them to quit the military, he simply said to treat people fairly and not to accept bribes. In the sermon on the mount Jesus said to "offer the other cheek". This is a personal commandment from Jesus to apply to their own lives. Can you honestly say that it is a Godly thing to not use force to protect a child who is being molested? If you do this, but yet call the police, you are still using the world and not seperating yourself from it according your JW's standards.

 

[celldog]

Leviathon a crocodile?? Hardly.

Job 41 states:
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [a] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?

2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?

3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?

4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?

5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls? :

6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?

8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me? [/B
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.

13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?

14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?

15 His back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; (whoa!)
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.

23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.

24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.

25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.

26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.

29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.

30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.

33 Nothing on earth is his equal—
a creature without fear.

34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."



Breathes fire and smoke? He has a hard under-side?? Crocs have soft belly.

No man can make a pet of him? Many do have pet Crocs.

The seas churn and broil in his wake?? Crocs barely make a ripple as they ease into the water.


I could go on. But if you read those verses, they don't sound like a croc. It sounds more like Godzilla. And he sounds huge!!!

Looks like a pet to me.

Ancient stories talked about fire-breathing dragons. May be those stories have some truth.

 

[Addendum]

 

[huskerwebhead]

I've heard that point before. The descriptions don't fit.

Here's an accurate model of one. Here's the verse in JOB.

See, besides you I made Behemoth, that feeds on grass like an ox.
16
Behold the strength in his loins, and his vigor in the sinews of his belly.
17
He carries his tail like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are like cables.
18
His bones are like tubes of bronze; his frame is like iron rods.
19
He came at the beginning of God's ways, and was made the taskmaster of his fellows;
20
For the produce of the mountains is brought to him, and of all wild animals he makes sport. 21
Under the lotus trees he lies, in coverts of the reedy swamp.
22
The lotus trees cover him with their shade; all about him are the poplars on the bank.
23
If the river grows violent, he is not disturbed; he is tranquil though the torrent surges about his mouth.
24
2 Who can capture him by his eyes, or pierce his nose with a trap?


A tail like a cedar tree? The produce of the MOUNTAINS is brought to him? He makes sport of all wild animals?? That's hardly a hippo. Plus Bronto is a grass eater.

Many believe it is this animal......

I've heard Hippo, Croc, or Elephant. There are a couple things in here that point me away from the Bronto. There are also things in here that seem, to me (and from what I've researched others as well) to contradict each other.

-The lotus trees cover him with their shade; all about him are the poplars on the bank.

No Bronto is going to be shading himself under a Lotus tree...way too big. Lotus tree which is believed to be a Date Tree or Ziziphus type tree.

...and of all wild animals he makes sport.

Bronto's were herbavors...not meat eaters. This line, as I understand it, indicates this animal made sport of other animals...preyed on them. That of course contradicts the whole "eats grass like an ox" statement. However, a hippo has been known to kill other animals and in extreme cases...eat them.

The problem is there are several different versions of this in the different versions of the bible. The "New Living Translation" version even goes as far as to change the word Behemoth to Hippo. The bible is so vaugue that you can draw almost any conclusion you want. Things can be twisted and turned into whatever your perspective might be....or what you want to see. There is no clear answer whatsoever.

 

[The Overlord]

I hold a different view than the JW's regarding the military and self defense. Of course no Christian should be violent, and of course every Christian should be seperated from the world, but the scripture you give in Roman's (if read in context) says that those who bear the sword are ministers of God (I don't know what the NWT say's but I believe you read the NASB too.)

Anyway, those that bear the sword (military/police) but not vigilantes do so to administer justice which has been ordained from God.

King David engaged in many violent acts of warfare. This wasn't evil, but the position he held in his heart is what made it evil. God didn't allow him to be the one to build his temple because "he loved war".

When Jesus was speaking to Roman military personel, he didn't tell them to quit the military, he simply said to treat people fairly and not to accept bribes. In the sermon on the mount Jesus said to "offer the other cheek". This is a personal commandment from Jesus to apply to their own lives. Can you honestly say that it is a Godly thing to not use force to protect a child who is being molested? If you do this, but yet call the police, you are still using the world and not seperating yourself from it according your JW's standards.

Tell me, if your such a gret Christian, then why do want to throw out the just war doctorine created by important Christian philosopher Thomas Aquinas.

 

[huskerwebhead]

Leviathon a crocodile?? Hardly.

Job 41 states:
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [a] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?

2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?

3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?

4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?

5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls? :

6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?

8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me? [/B
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.

13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?

14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?

15 His back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; (whoa!)
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.

23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.

24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.

25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.

26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.

29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.

30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.

33 Nothing on earth is his equal—
a creature without fear.

34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."



Breathes fire and smoke? He has a hard under-side?? Crocs have soft belly.

No man can make a pet of him? Many do have pet Crocs.

The seas churn and broil in his wake?? Crocs barely make a ripple as they ease into the water.


I could go on. But if you read those verses, they don't sound like a croc. It sounds more like Godzilla. And he sounds huge!!!

Looks like a pet to me.

Ancient stories talked about fire-breathing dragons. May be those stories have some truth.

I think anything you read in there has to be taken with a grain of salt. Alot in the bible are metaphors and/or exaggerations. You don't honestly believe everything that was written in there as complete accuracy? Do you?

Fire and smoke could easily be an exaggeration...he looks alot like a dragon. When a croc is in the water he'll frequently blow water out of/through his nostrals. It looks alot like steam...and in a stretch...smoke. Where there is smoke there is fire.

It said he had a jagged underside...not necessarily hard. Crocs can leave tracks in the ground where their belly slide or their tail slid.

Yes some people do have them as pets, but you have to think of what time period this was written in. Any animal now could be kept as a pet (though it wouldn't be smart or even legal)...doesn't make it tame. All these people with gators/crocs as pets still have to be very careful. One wrong move and you're meat.

Sure, they can glide through the water and make barely a ripple...but when they perform their killing rolls to tear an animal apart water is thrashed everywhere. A gator can crash into the water just as easily as he slides into it too. If he's in a hurry, you can damn well bet he'll make more than just a ripple.

Again, the bible is so vague and filled with so many exaggerations and such...you can draw almost any conclusion.

 

[Man-Thing]

Tell me, if your such a gret Christian, then why do want to throw out the just war doctorine created by important Christian philosopher Thomas Aquinas.

I'm a horrible Christian.

I don't think anything I've said contradicts the just war doctrine, and if it does please offer my apologies to Aquinas.

 

[huskerwebhead]

15 His back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

That sounds an awful lot like a Croc. The scales on their back are large, hard, and obviously close together. A bronto had no such scales.

30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

Another though here...a Bronto (or like dino) didn't drag it's belly or tail for that matter. (tail depends on who you talk to)

 

[The Overlord]

I'm a horrible Christian.

I don't think anything I've said contradicts the just war doctrine, and if it does please offer my apologies to Aquinas.

You support the Bush doctorine of pre-emptive wars, correct? According to just war doctorine, only purely defensive wars are just. You supported the Iraq war, but there is no real evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the 9-11 attack, the 9-11 attack justified the Afghanistan war, not the Iraq one.

 

[Man-Thing]

You support the Bush doctorine of pre-emptive wars, correct? According to just war doctorine, only purely defensive wars are just. You supported the Iraq war, but there is no real evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the 9-11 attack, the 9-11 attack justified the Afghanistan war, not the Iraq one.

I guess I don't support the doctrine of just war to your interpretation of it, but under the circumstances of Iraq I did because I view it defensive to oust a madman who APPEARED to have WMDs.

Like I've said before I've been wrong before.

War isn't pretty, and I don't like any war. I don't like saying I supported the war because to me that says I support the killing of innocent people, which is a fact that happens in any modern warfare.

 

[bored]

Leviathon a crocodile?? Hardly.

Job 41 states:
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [a] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?

2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?

3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?

4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?

5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls? :

6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?

8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me? [/B
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.

13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?

14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?

15 His back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; (whoa!)
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.

23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.

24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.

25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.

26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.

29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.

30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.

33 Nothing on earth is his equal—
a creature without fear.

34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."



Breathes fire and smoke? He has a hard under-side?? Crocs have soft belly.

No man can make a pet of him? Many do have pet Crocs.

The seas churn and broil in his wake?? Crocs barely make a ripple as they ease into the water.


I could go on. But if you read those verses, they don't sound like a croc. It sounds more like Godzilla. And he sounds huge!!!

Looks like a pet to me.

Ancient stories talked about fire-breathing dragons. May be those stories have some truth.

Two things: one, the descriptions you bolded all sound VERY croc-like, and two, most 'pet' crocodiles are either tiny kinds (like caymans), or are kept in pens, like you'd find at road-side attractions in the south. Nobody's got a croc walking around their house, playing with the kids.

 

[huskerwebhead]

Let's also keep in mind Croc's can get HUGE. For example:

They are not all like the "little guy" you conveniently found a pic of.

 

[celldog]

I've heard Hippo, Croc, or Elephant. There are a couple things in here that point me away from the Bronto. There are also things in here that seem, to me (and from what I've researched others as well) to contradict each other.



No Bronto is going to be shading himself under a Lotus tree...way too big. Lotus tree which is believed to be a Date Tree or Ziziphus type tree.

How tall are lotus trees? And if he is in a swamp what's the problem in shading himself?



Bronto's were herbavors...not meat eaters. This line, as I understand it, indicates this animal made sport of other animals...preyed on them. That of course contradicts the whole "eats grass like an ox" statement. However, a hippo has been known to kill other animals and in extreme cases...eat them.


"See, besides you I made Behemoth, that feeds on grass like an ox."
This verse shows what his food source is. "Making sport of other animals" doesn't necessary mean he preys on them. I think it means that his size makes him very intimidating. Plus the tail like a cedar??? The hippo barely has a tail.

The problem is there are several different versions of this in the different versions of the bible. The "New Living Translation" version even goes as far as to change the word Behemoth to Hippo. The bible is so vaugue that you can draw almost any conclusion you want. Things can be twisted and turned into whatever your perspective might be....or what you want to see. There is no clear answer whatsoever.

Scholars disagree on many secondary issues. But the text clearly does not show a hippo.

 

[celldog]

Two things: one, the descriptions you bolded all sound VERY croc-like, and two, most 'pet' crocodiles are either tiny kinds (like caymans), or are kept in pens, like you'd find at road-side attractions in the south. Nobody's got a croc walking around their house, playing with the kids.

Did you read the verses talking about fire from the nostrils??? His under side being too hard to pierce??

 

[huskerwebhead]

How tall are lotus trees? And if he is in a swamp what's the problem in shading himself?

My understanding is that the Lotus tree is fictional. It has been said to be the size/type of tree relative to the Ziziphus tree or date tree. No bigger than your average apple tree give or take. In any case, way too small for bronto to fit under.

"See, besides you I made Behemoth, that feeds on grass like an ox."
This verse shows what his food source is. "Making sport of other animals" doesn't necessary mean he preys on them. I think it means that his size makes him very intimidating. Plus the tail like a cedar??? The hippo barely has a tail.

Regarding the "sport of other animals." See, that's what I mean. It's all how you interpret it. It "could" mean how you are explaining it...but who knows. Hippos can be very mean...and obviously so can crocs. They often chase off and sometimes kill other animals. That fits into that verse as well. The tail issue, yes, that's an inconsitancy. But perhaps an exaggeration or something to that effect. Do you honestly believe that this creature was breathing fire? It's obvious they took a few liberties with how they described this creature. Who knows what is truth and what is not.

 

[huskerwebhead]

Did you read the verses talking about fire from the nostrils??? His under side being too hard to pierce??

Did you read my posts talking about this? I'll put my words in bold, too.

 

[bored]

Did you read the verses talking about fire from the nostrils??? His under side being too hard to pierce??

If you found those so significant, you should have bolded them. And just because someone claimed the things doesn't make them true.

 

[The Overlord]

I guess I don't support the doctrine of just war to your interpretation of it, but under the circumstances of Iraq I did because I view it defensive to oust a madman who APPEARED to have WMDs.

Like I've said before I've been wrong before.

War isn't pretty, and I don't like any war. I don't like saying I supported the war because to me that says I support the killing of innocent people, which is a fact that happens in any modern warfare.

Under just war doctorine, your not supposed to launch the first attack. Now there maybe exceptions to every rule, but the evidence clealry wasn't solid in the Iraq case, it was based on assumptions rather than hard evidence, so Iraq does not count as an exception. But the question is do you support the Bush doctorine of pre-emptive war at any time? Besdies the just war doctorine states that war is only an option, when all other options have proven futile, was that the really the case in Iraq?

 

[comicgirl]

jag

I've got him on my car....aaaaah!

 

[Kessel Day]

I hold a different view than the JW's regarding the military and self defense. Of course no Christian should be violent, and of course every Christian should be seperated from the world, but the scripture you give in Roman's (if read in context) says that those who bear the sword are ministers of God (I don't know what the NWT say's but I believe you read the NASB too.)

those verses in Romans do say that governments are ministers of God, in the sense that governments keep order and punish the wicked. they exist by God's permission and Christians are commanded to give them not only respect, but also "tribute" (taxes) no matter how they spend it.

that being said, M-T, if the governments commanded you to not speak about Jesus, would you obey them? i believe you would not. and why? because you know that Christians have been told:

"Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar but God's things to God."

Jesus commanded his followers to speak of him and his Father. Jesus also commanded us to love our enemies. can we love those we kill?

Anyway, those that bear the sword (military/police) but not vigilantes do so to administer justice which has been ordained from God.

King David engaged in many violent acts of warfare. This wasn't evil, but the position he held in his heart is what made it evil. God didn't allow him to be the one to build his temple because "he loved war".

King David was not a Christian. the wars he fought were personally directed by God. can you say the same of the wars fought by humans today?

When Jesus was speaking to Roman military personel, he didn't tell them to quit the military, he simply said to treat people fairly and not to accept bribes.

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius (161 to 180 c.e.) no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, afer becoming a Christian, remained in military service."
The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E.W. Barnes, p. 333

In the sermon on the mount Jesus said to "offer the other cheek". This is a personal commandment from Jesus to apply to their own lives. Can you honestly say that it is a Godly thing to not use force to protect a child who is being molested? If you do this, but yet call the police, you are still using the world and not seperating yourself from it according your JW's standards.

you misunderstand our standards, M-T. of course we would call the police and step in personally to protect a child just as you would.

we also use the fire department and public highways. using those public services is not the same as being "part of the world".

 

[C.F. Kane]

http://religionandpolitics.ytmnd.com/

 

[Danalys]

*nods* especially since most wars are motivated by greed.

but consider this, Danalys: would be fair for people who try to be loving and peaceable to always live in a world controlled by those who don't care about anyone but their own cronies?

who but God can bring about a peaceful world where all have enough to eat, everyone has perfect health and there is no war or crime?

life isn't fair, but we must do what we can to better it. to make it more fair.

 

[Danalys]

also the best self defence is to be an example no one wants to challenge.

 

[celldog]

Let's also keep in mind Croc's can get HUGE. For example:

They are not all like the "little guy" you conveniently found a pic of.

Those are pretty big. But if you read the verses one by one, they still don't fit.

6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?

(Yep. They made shoes and belts outta this guy.)

34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."

(Now... the last itme I checked, Crocs and Gators only look up at his prey. To look down , he's either very tall or able to stand on two hind legs. Crocs don't do that.)

Geeez....is there a problem for you guys to see God mention dinosaurs in the Bible? Does that mess with your theories?

 

[ampersand]

You just told us that people made shoes and belts out of dinosaurs.