Micah tells us Jesus also is everlasting from the past (though your translation doesn't confirm or deny this) and Revelations tells us Jesus is the First and Last. Let alone all the other scriptures that refer to Jesus as creating everything, etc.....Kessel Day said:
A Case For Creation
- Thread starter celldog
- Start date
Kessel, what about the above. Even your own translation has the Holy Spirit worded as a person, 'he.'rodhulk said:
And apart from that, and with the understanding that the marks of a personality are intellect, emotion, and will, how can something not a person (active force) do the following,
1) Loves - Romans 15:30
2) Speaks, calls to thyself - Acts 13:2 (note the personal pronoun)
3) Counsels - John 14:16-17
Jehovah almighty was seen even though it says Jehovah hasn't been seen.
A recorded in the 18th chapter of Genesis, Abraham had three visitors, two of them were later called angels (Gen. 19:1), but the third he addressed as Jehovah, fourteen times I believe!
Abraham's thrid visitor stayed with him and conversed with him after Abraham had saw him and the two angels.
Now, if John is said to be believed without question and I'm sure you'll agree, Kessel, then "no man has seen God at any time; except his only begotten son, who is in the bossom of the Father... (John 1:18)" Jesus said himself "Also the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have not at any time either heard his voice or seen his form... for God is spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth. (John 5:37; 4:24)"
Now then, here is the eveidence of more than one person as being God.
Moses declares that God spoke with Abraham (was physically there as it has been shown) (Genesis 18:1-3), and Jesus and John say "No man has seen God at any time" But Jesus makes it clear that he is referring to the Father, and so does John.
And there you have it. The person of the Father (Jehovah) is not seen, but the person of the son, Jesus (Jehovah), is seen.
A recorded in the 18th chapter of Genesis, Abraham had three visitors, two of them were later called angels (Gen. 19:1), but the third he addressed as Jehovah, fourteen times I believe!
Abraham's thrid visitor stayed with him and conversed with him after Abraham had saw him and the two angels.
Now, if John is said to be believed without question and I'm sure you'll agree, Kessel, then "no man has seen God at any time; except his only begotten son, who is in the bossom of the Father... (John 1:18)" Jesus said himself "Also the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have not at any time either heard his voice or seen his form... for God is spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth. (John 5:37; 4:24)"
Now then, here is the eveidence of more than one person as being God.
Moses declares that God spoke with Abraham (was physically there as it has been shown) (Genesis 18:1-3), and Jesus and John say "No man has seen God at any time" But Jesus makes it clear that he is referring to the Father, and so does John.
And there you have it. The person of the Father (Jehovah) is not seen, but the person of the son, Jesus (Jehovah), is seen.
celldog
Sidekick
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
E. bison Wrote: Everlasting just means forever or eternal. It means he's never going to die or go out of existence. That's all. "Ever" means "always" and to an extreme. Nothing about being absolute in time. When Jesus died he didn't exist temporarily. Consider these verses:
Habakuk 1:12 - Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it.
Jesus and God can't be the same because this verse above shows that God never dies BUT Jesus DID die. Jesus could not have resurrected himself if he was dead. He couldn't also be pretending to be dead because he would not have paid the ransom.
Jesus did not cease to exist when He died on the cross. His Spirit went to the place of the dead for that 3 days ( 1 Peter 3:19). He even preached to them about his victory.
He raised Himself. John 2:19-21
John 2:19-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
The Holy Spirit raised Him.
Romans 8:11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
The Father raised Him.
Galatians 1
1Paul, an apostlesent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
This shows the Trinity at work in the resurrection.
Habakuk 1:12 - Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, for a judgment you have set it; and, O Rock, for a reproving you have founded it.
Jesus and God can't be the same because this verse above shows that God never dies BUT Jesus DID die. Jesus could not have resurrected himself if he was dead. He couldn't also be pretending to be dead because he would not have paid the ransom.
Jesus did not cease to exist when He died on the cross. His Spirit went to the place of the dead for that 3 days ( 1 Peter 3:19). He even preached to them about his victory.
He raised Himself. John 2:19-21
John 2:19-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
The Holy Spirit raised Him.
Romans 8:11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
The Father raised Him.
Galatians 1
1Paul, an apostlesent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
This shows the Trinity at work in the resurrection.
celldog
Sidekick
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
Kessel Day said:
Jesus worked under the direction of the Father, too. What do we say of that? Again you keep violating the literal principle of interpretation. You keep taking the "pouring" as a literal pouring. As if the Spirit is some liquid. Jesus would then have to truly be a "door" or a "vine". The meaning of "pouring" should be clear in the full context of scripture. The Holy Spirit is used metaphorically to represent the oil they anointed kings and prophets with in the Old Testament. Again.....the fact that He can fill all believers is a testimony to the omnipresence He has.
celldog
Sidekick
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
Kessell...I ran across this. I tmakes a good point......
Does Annihilation and resurrection make sense?
According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, when you die, you cease to exist: Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67. On Judgment Day, only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will be resurrected to life eternal on Paradise Earth. The rest of all mankind will be annihilated, wiped out, made to not exist with no eternal punishment in a fiery hell.
There is a logical problem with this view. If a Jehovah's Witnesses believes that he ceases to exist when he dies and that he will be resurrected at the Judgment Day, then is he really being resurrected? In other words, if he was alive and then has ceased to exist, he is in the same state he was before he was created. That is, he isn't. He has no existence. He is gone. The only remnant of this person would be in the memory of God (not counting family and friends, etc.). Only God would know if this Jehovah's Witness was good enough for Paradise Earth. If he was, then the reward would be a new creation of someone in the exact image of the Jehovah's Witness who previously lived and did all the works mandated by the Watchtower Organization. But, it wouldn't be the exact same person, because that person ceased to exist and there is no continuity, no continuance of the person since he has ceased to be.
Therefore, on Judgment day, how can he be resurrected? That is, how is he, as the same person, resurrected when he doesn't exist anymore? Is he the exact same person or has God make an exact copy of the person upon which to shower the blessings of Paradise Earth?
It would seem that simple logic would contradict the idea of existence, non-existence, and then existence all being the same person. It also contradicts scripture which says,
"We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord," (2 Cor. 5:8).
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven," (2 Cor. 12:2).
The Bible teaches us that we have an existence away from out bodies once we die. The Jehovah's Witnesses are incorrect. We continue on after death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does Annihilation and resurrection make sense?
According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, when you die, you cease to exist: Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67. On Judgment Day, only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will be resurrected to life eternal on Paradise Earth. The rest of all mankind will be annihilated, wiped out, made to not exist with no eternal punishment in a fiery hell.
There is a logical problem with this view. If a Jehovah's Witnesses believes that he ceases to exist when he dies and that he will be resurrected at the Judgment Day, then is he really being resurrected? In other words, if he was alive and then has ceased to exist, he is in the same state he was before he was created. That is, he isn't. He has no existence. He is gone. The only remnant of this person would be in the memory of God (not counting family and friends, etc.). Only God would know if this Jehovah's Witness was good enough for Paradise Earth. If he was, then the reward would be a new creation of someone in the exact image of the Jehovah's Witness who previously lived and did all the works mandated by the Watchtower Organization. But, it wouldn't be the exact same person, because that person ceased to exist and there is no continuity, no continuance of the person since he has ceased to be.
Therefore, on Judgment day, how can he be resurrected? That is, how is he, as the same person, resurrected when he doesn't exist anymore? Is he the exact same person or has God make an exact copy of the person upon which to shower the blessings of Paradise Earth?
It would seem that simple logic would contradict the idea of existence, non-existence, and then existence all being the same person. It also contradicts scripture which says,
"We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord," (2 Cor. 5:8).
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven," (2 Cor. 12:2).
The Bible teaches us that we have an existence away from out bodies once we die. The Jehovah's Witnesses are incorrect. We continue on after death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
celldog
Sidekick
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
I ran across this on the same website. I researched it in some other reference materials, as well. How do you explain this to me, Kessell? How long have you been a Jehovah's Witness?
Remember Deut. 18:22, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." If someone makes a false prophecy, and they have claimed to be a prophet of God, then they are false prophets and are not to be listened to.
Do the Witnesses claim to be the prophet of God? Yes, they do.
In 1972 the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God.
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET" -- "So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses...Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it." The Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197. (See Deut. 18:21)
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 4, page 621.
1899 "...the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." The Time Is at Hand, page 101 (1908 edition).
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873." The Time Is at Hand, page ii, (forward).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89.
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower 9/1/22, page 262.
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, page 106 4/1/23.
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3.
1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 page 262.
1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." The Watchtower, page 232.
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates." Vindication, page 338.
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." The Watchtower, 9/15/41, page 288.
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, 10/8/68.
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" The Watchtower, 8/15/68, page 494.
A JW might say that the organization is still learning. If that is so, then how can they trust what they are taught now by the Watchtower? Will what they are being taught now change also?
A true prophet of God won't err in prophesying. Only a false prophet does. The Jehovah's Witness organization, that claims to be a prophet of God, is really a false prophet. Jesus warned us by saying, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible" (Matt. 24:24).
1975 was particularly devastating. Many of your group sold there belongings, took kids out of school.....etc. And nothing happened.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With this kind of track record, how can you believe the other doctrines about Jesus or even the Holy Spirit to be true?
Remember Deut. 18:22, "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." If someone makes a false prophecy, and they have claimed to be a prophet of God, then they are false prophets and are not to be listened to.
Do the Witnesses claim to be the prophet of God? Yes, they do.
In 1972 the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God.
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET" -- "So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses...Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it." The Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197. (See Deut. 18:21)
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 4, page 621.
1899 "...the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." The Time Is at Hand, page 101 (1908 edition).
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873." The Time Is at Hand, page ii, (forward).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89.
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower 9/1/22, page 262.
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, page 106 4/1/23.
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3.
1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 page 262.
1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." The Watchtower, page 232.
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates." Vindication, page 338.
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon." The Watchtower, 9/15/41, page 288.
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, 10/8/68.
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" The Watchtower, 8/15/68, page 494.
A JW might say that the organization is still learning. If that is so, then how can they trust what they are taught now by the Watchtower? Will what they are being taught now change also?
A true prophet of God won't err in prophesying. Only a false prophet does. The Jehovah's Witness organization, that claims to be a prophet of God, is really a false prophet. Jesus warned us by saying, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible" (Matt. 24:24).
1975 was particularly devastating. Many of your group sold there belongings, took kids out of school.....etc. And nothing happened.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With this kind of track record, how can you believe the other doctrines about Jesus or even the Holy Spirit to be true?
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
celldog said:
this is not what we believe. we believe "judgment day" is a 1,000 years long and that all who are in God's memory "the righteous and the unrighteous" will be resurrected.
how can i believe anything you write when you cannot even get that basic belief of ours correct?
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
rodhulk said:
why is Jesus called the "only begotten" Son of God?
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
rodhulk said:
from this post i see that you are not reading anything i have written.
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
celldog said:
Jesus did take over his heavenly kingdom in 1914. just because many brothers had wrong expectations about what that meant for them makes them no different than the apostles who also had wrong expectations at different times.
what really IS wrong is twisting the scriptures to agree with pagan philosophy (the idea of an "immortal soul" is nowhere supported in the Bible), pagan ideas (trinity, hellfire, child baptism, worship of images) and conforming with worldly ideas (love of nation over love of God).
these are the messages of false prophets.
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
celldog said:
everything we believe is in the Bible:
that those who die are in God's memory to be resurrected on the last day.
"Martha said to him (Jesus): 'I know he (Lazarus) will rise in the resurrection on the last day.'"
the dead are unconscious.
"The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." Eccl 9:5; see also John 11:11-14
souls can die or be destroyed.
"The soul that is sinning -- it itself will die." Ezek 18:4
we also believe that those who will be ruling with Jesus in heaven (the little flock), will be resurrected to heaven as spirits, just as Jesus was. they have an earlier resurrection.
"I saw thrones and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judgment was given them . . . Happy and holy is anyone have part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ and will rule as kings with him for a thousand years." Rev 20:4,6
"There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. So also is the resurrection of the dead . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust . . . the second man [Jesus] is own of heaven. . . . . . . tha flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. 1 Cor 15:40, 42-44,47-50
"The Lord Jesus Christ . . . will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has." Phil 3:20,21
a question to you, celldog: Jesus said that "the meek would inherit the earth". was he wrong?
celldog
Sidekick
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
Kessel Day said:
No. He was not wrong. That will happen when He returns. That is still a future time. What are you trying to get at?
Everything you believe is in the bible? Where is annihilation? You do know that Chales Taze Russell started your movement because He could not accept the thought of eternal punishment in hell, don't you? Stands to reason why he would opt for annihilation. That Ecclesiates has nothing to do with the dead being destroyed. But it merely shows the dead know nothing of this world. They cannot see us or contact us (Luke 16 ""The rich man).
celldog
Sidekick
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Messages
- 3,001
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
Kessel Day said:
[B]Wow. All of those predictions and you just toss them to the side. These predictions came from your movement. Are there now "denominations" in your Watch Tower??[/B]
And you still didn't address my question on why demon spirits get to keep their personhood and the Holy Spirit can't??
Who is the Jehovah that was seen in the OT as it was clearly revealed that nobody has ever seen Jehovah the Father? Answer that first, please, since I asked first, rather than dodge the fact that Jehovah Father is not the only person in the Godhead as I showed above.Kessel Day said:
And answer why the name ELOHIM was used to identify God. Elohim can only mean more than one person in the Godhead.
And answer why God sometimes says "let us" when referring to himself. Does this not indicate plural?
Why are you dodging everything all of a sudden. I've clearly shown you that even your own translation of the scriptures show the spirit to be a person.Kessel Day said:
I also showed you that the spirit loves, explain how an 'active force' (not a personality) can love because the Holy Spirit loves. read my referenced scripture in my above post that you quoted.
The scriptures also show Jesus saying that he would 'send another counselor, the spirit.' This (counselor) indicates a person, not an active force.
The prophecies of the Watchtower are enormous, and the failures of these prophecies not coming to pass are almost as enormous.celldog said:
During World War 2, they made tons of prophecies, none which came true and couldn't. Why? There was no temple.
They went on to say that many were misguided or something to that effect and that's why the prophecies didn't come to pass.
According to the Bible and as you have shown, that makes it a 'false prophet.' Therefore, if they were wrong back then, how do I know, I mean, really know, that it's correct today? We don't, so we stay away from it.
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
celldog said:
you are reading your own beliefs into that verse. it says "their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished". if an evil person was "conscious", and burning in a fiery hell, wouldn't he at least have these emotions. or do people become mindless in your burning hell?
you did not address how Ezekiel says that souls die.
the Bible says that the punishment for sin is "death"; NOT life in eternal pain.
that is what God said to Adam "dust to dust".
don't you think that if God really intended to burn disapproved people forever, that justice would demand He tell Adam that before Adam sinned?
my God is just. He told Adam the truth.
my God Jehovah is loving. He would never torture people forever for just a few short years of sinfulness, no matter how bad they were.
i don't ignore verses like 2 Thess. 1:9 that say the wicked "will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction" - not eternal conscious punishment and
"Death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death." Rev 20:14 showing this "lake of fire" to be a symbol of destruction.
instead, you have to rely on what is an obvious illustration - that of Lazarus and the rich man - to support the unsupportable.
Animals are souls Ge 1:20,21,24,30; 2:19; 9:10,12,15,16; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9
A living person or individual is a soul Gen 2:7; 12:5; 14,21: 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,15; 18:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De 10:22; 24:6,7; 1 Sa 22:22; 2 Sa 14:14; 2 Ki 12:4; 1 Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Act 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1 Co 15:45; 1 Pe 3:20; 2 Pe 2:14
The soul is mortal, destructible Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1 Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pro 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mat 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; John 12:25; Acts 3:23; Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3
Soul delivered from Sheol or Hades ("hell") Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; Pr 23:14; Act 2:27
Dead soul, or corpse Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 2:13
Soul distinguished from spirit Php 1:27; 1 Thess 5:23; Heb 4:12
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
rodhulk said:
false prophets lead their followers into killing innocent people in just the way so-called christians have murdered people that didn't believe the way did for centuries.
why have these people that said they followed the Prince of Peace slaughtered fellow humans in wars, burned them at stakes, and kept them from reading the Bible? because they don't know Jesus. and Jesus doesn't know them either.
if you belong to a religion that condones violence to others at the behest of your government, can you really say you belong to Jesus who said to love your enemies?
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
rodhulk said:
have you ever heard of "the plural of majesty"? the hebrew language uses it. i'm surprised you didn't know this.
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
rodhulk said:
i am not dodging your question. i just don't have the time to repeat myself. i have answered this question. it has to do with the idea of "personification".
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
rodhulk said:
angels often spoke as Jehovah's representative and in His name. i gave you the verse where a man says he is talking to Jehovah but afterwards it is said that the man was speaking to an angel.
you must have missed that.
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
celldog said:
demon spirits are angels that followed satan and are now disapproved. they were always persons albeit spirit persons.
you didn't answer how it is that a person can be "quenched"
Kessel Day
Superhero
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Messages
- 5,729
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
Kritish said:
feeling feisty this morning, Kritish?
Similar threads
Users who are viewing this thread
Staff online
-
Lily Adler💦 Sweaty Cheese 🧀
