General Trek Talk A Star Trek question

[Mrh7448]

Okay I'm watching Star Trek: Enterprise for lack of anything better. They're developing a relationship between Trip and T'pal, and Spock was a human/vulcan, so I'm wondering. WHY?

I mean it's a vulcan. A logical Vulcan why would she want to get with a human. It really doesn't make sense. I mean logically speaking it's not going to propegate the species and since they supress their emotions love doesn't play a factor.

So why would a vulcan marry and have children with a human?

 

[bengali]

Emotions are human and that's not logical to a Vulcan. but she is a star fleet officer. and as you know Spock did like the humans after all he did sacrifice himself for them in ST2. So emotions can play a factor to some point to a Vulcan and that could be the emotions you are talking about. hope that helped you!!

 

[DarKush]

Vulcans have emotions. It was established in TOS with Spock. However, Vulcan emotions are so strong and savage that the Vulcans set up a stringent philosophy based on logic and emotional suppression after they almost destroyed themselves centuries.

The 4th season ENT episodes-"The Forge, Awakening, and Kir'Shara" (The Vulcan Reformation Arc) touch on that. Also, the non-canon book Spock's World by Diane Duanne.

So, T'Pol does have emotions, and could, and does, develop feelings for Trip. However, there relationship is handled fairly poorly, like all of ENT's relationships, character development and arcs.

(If you are watching ENT's 3rd season, T'Pol becomes addicted to trellium-D in the Expanse to get, or experience, emotions she says. But that was a goof of the writers, because T'Pol already had emotions. She was just suppressing them. She didn't have to take or make a drug to get them. All she had to do was loosen her own mental controls. The drug angle was one of the few dumb things the writers did in season three, which IMO was pretty good overall, esp. for ENT. It helped put the series over VOY for me.)

My main issue with ENT, and to be fair I think it started with DS9's "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" is the trend of making Vulcans jerks to make their human counterparts look better.

Vulcans were placed in the paternal, antagonist role in the "Broken Bow" premiere. Which I think was a mistake because instead of having the Vulcans be logically concerned about helping or assisting the emotional humans become a space faring power, they are seen merely as mean obstructionists. And there is no real debate, or discussion of the issue of why the Vulcans stalled Earth's warp development.

It was a poor, one-sided attempt to create dramatic tension that could've better been spent building up the Klingons, Andorians, Orions, or ENT's own Suliban as antagonists instead.

Another example is that the ENT Vulcan Science Academy doesn't believe in time travel, until shown up by Archer of course. But if Vulcan has been a space going power for centuries before Earth shouldn't they at least encountered a timeloop, or one of those time-related space anomalies that almost every Trek show has run across? But for the writers to have them dismiss the idea of time travel so quickly makes the Vulcans seem cold minded and a bit pissy. And still are reluctant to admit they were wrong.

ENT really maligned the Vulcans for me. It got so bad that they had to do a reformation arc to connect the ENT Vulcans to the TOS Vulcans. The writers even made mind-melding a dirty practice only practiced in secret for by a minority of Vulcans, until the reformation.

I am glad though, that the reformation arc largely cleaned up the damage the first three seasons did.

To attempt to answer your question, T'Pol didn't marry Trip. But their child was conceived through artificial means. I don't want to ruin the story for you-check out S4 "Demons & Terra Prime" to see how that all went down. In S4, T'Pol did marry the Vulcan Koss, check out "Home" and the Vulcan Reformation arc for that.

Repeat, I think the Trip/T'Pol pairing was poorly done, and really doesn't end in a satisfying manner-Series Finale "These Are the Voyages". But love knows few boundaries, and the other Treks have already established interspecies marriages and relationships.

TOS
Sarek & Amanda-Spock (Hybrid Vulcan/Human)

TNG
Lxwanna & Ian Troi-Deanna (Hybrid Betazoid/Human)
K'heylar(sp)-(Hybrid Klingon/Human)
Will Riker & Deanna Troi
Will Riker & Ro Laren (Bajoran)
Worf & Deanna Troi
Geordi & Aquiel Uhnari (Haliian)
Crusher & Odan (Trill)

DS9
Kira (Bajoran) & Odo (Changeling)
Quark (Ferengi) & Grilka (Klingon)
Quark & Natima Lang (Cardassian)
Tora Ziyal (Hybrid Bajoran-Cardassian)
Worf & Jadzia Dax (Trill)
Bashir & Ezri Dax

VOY
Paris & Torres (Hybrid Human-Klingon)
Neelix (Talaxian) & Kes (Ocampan)

 

[Superfreak]

Okay I'm watching Star Trek: Enterprise for lack of anything better. They're developing a relationship between Trip and T'pal, and Spock was a human/vulcan, so I'm wondering. WHY?

I mean it's a vulcan. A logical Vulcan why would she want to get with a human. It really doesn't make sense. I mean logically speaking it's not going to propegate the species and since they supress their emotions love doesn't play a factor.

So why would a vulcan marry and have children with a human?

it's been said, Vulcan's have emotions, but supress them because they are more often than not, dangerous because of how powerful they are.

as for TPol, she gets all messed up after mind melding with some moron who doesn't know how to meld properly, and this makes her all emotional until she is later cured by Vulcan rebels, where melding is a bad thing to the enterpris era vulcans.

 

[The Question]

You see, this is the problem that STar Trek has had for a while. They tend to lump all the speicese together under the same steriotypes. T'pol is her own individual. If she wants to forget some of her traditions and have a relationship with a human, then that's he descision.

 

[Mrh7448]

See the thing is I'm not just talking about T'pol that was just the one that started me thinking about this. Because Spock is a "half-breed" too, and Sarek was nothing if not logical and prided himself on it. In fact did he not have more than one human wife?

I know that vulcan experience emotions and the idea is that the suppress them. That's the point it's not logical for a Vulcan and human to get married and get busy because it does nothing to advance the Vulcan species.

The idea of a Human and a Vulcan actually getting married and having a family seems most illogical.

 

[Gamma Ray]

The short answer: Star Trek Enterprise is bullcrap.

 

[Superfreak]

I know that vulcan experience emotions and the idea is that the suppress them. That's the point it's not logical for a Vulcan and human to get married and get busy because it does nothing to advance the Vulcan species.

The idea of a Human and a Vulcan actually getting married and having a family seems most illogical.

But, did you notice that Spock was bad ass, survived anything that was thrown at him. Died, came back to life, brought the federation and the klingons together in peace, and began a peace movement between the vulcans and the romulans. I'd say that the human/vulcan hybrid is a pretty damn good life form. It's ability to survive, as shown by what proof we have, if far better than either species on its own.

so if you're looking at it from a biological, survival of the fitest point of view, the hybrid is the way to go. Hell, Spock is still alive as far as we know. What's not logical about that?

 

[The Question]

See the thing is I'm not just talking about T'pol that was just the one that started me thinking about this. Because Spock is a "half-breed" too, and Sarek was nothing if not logical and prided himself on it. In fact did he not have more than one human wife?

I know that vulcan experience emotions and the idea is that the suppress them. That's the point it's not logical for a Vulcan and human to get married and get busy because it does nothing to advance the Vulcan species.

The idea of a Human and a Vulcan actually getting married and having a family seems most illogical.

But, you're lumping all Vulcans together. You're saying that they're all the same. And they're not. While their culture prides itself on logic and effectiveness, not all Vulcans are that way. Obviously, Spock's father wasn't so bent on logic that he was incapable of falling in love.

 

[DarKush]

See the thing is I'm not just talking about T'pol that was just the one that started me thinking about this. Because Spock is a "half-breed" too, and Sarek was nothing if not logical and prided himself on it. In fact did he not have more than one human wife?

I know that vulcan experience emotions and the idea is that the suppress them. That's the point it's not logical for a Vulcan and human to get married and get busy because it does nothing to advance the Vulcan species.

The idea of a Human and a Vulcan actually getting married and having a family seems most illogical.

The Vulcans also have a belief called Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

So, some Vulcans might also see it as logical to experiment and combine their genetic stock with other species.

But another issue I've had with Trek is that its often too human-centric. It would've been nice to have Trip try to learn T'Pol's culture and Vulcan emotional suppression techniques for a change instead of the other way around. It might've been a bit more tasteful than the Vulcan neuro-pressure scenes in S3 ENT. Esp. when he was struggling with the death of his sister, it would make sense for him to try to reign in those emotions.

 

[The Question]

I've had an idea for a Trek series for a while that would center around a mostly alien cast. In fact, out of all the regular characters, there would only be one human.

 

[Red]

Wouldn't that make the human the alien.

 

[The Question]

Well, each one of them is from a different specese. There would be the human, and then there would be a former member of the Q continueum (who is more or less the main character), a Klingon, a Cardasian, and a Dominion shapeshifter. Maybe a Vulcan, too.

 

[Superfreak]

Question, I had this idea, while watching enterprise at some point. Now I agree, Enterprise had its craptastic momments, a lot of them. But some interesting things were touched upon, which tie to a number of things, so here's my idea:


Star Trek Continuum (whatever on the spelling)

This show would be centered around time travelling (think the DS9 episode trouble with tribbles here). It would be set a few more generations into the future beyond the TNG timeline. The story would revolve around some sort of federation time cop. This would tie directly into the mumbo jumbo that enterprise puked out. It would also tie into events that occured on Voyager.

As cast, one could have anybody. But out of narrative interest, I'd like to have the story be about a slightly older Wesley Crusher, and the traveller, who are recruited into a 'future' Federation time crew, in order to save the day. This crew can be any combination of aliens and what not, as the series is set in a distant future from TNG/DS9/VOY.

How the show would work. There are several hundred episodes of star trek now if my count is correct. So my idea revolves around creating plots in which are timepolice carry out their mission within previous episodes of Star Trek. Exactly like Trouble With Tribbles DS9 episode. The entire series would not be a review of previous trek, and there would be individual, completely new episodes, but a high proportion of digitally inserted episodes as well. Basically, the heroes of this new show would help to save the heroes of the older shows, without their knowledge.

otherwise, the show would remain pretty much the same trek as always. There'd be a ship of pyjama clad nancy boys, some cool battles.....

Interesting points of reference that could be used for narrative fodder that the show could play with. Investigation into use of time travel, STIV, STFC, Lots of TOS episodes, an entire season of enterprise, a few Voyager episodes, including the finale, and some great tng epis. There are also characters that could be reintroduced in a new light. Q would be interesting to see from a more advanced point of view, revisiting Ben Sisko, now a timeless being would also be interesting. Mostly, I'd really like to see this temporal cold war, how it plays out from an intelligent point of view (not that of enterprise)

so that's it. I think it would work well on a couple of levels. First for old fans, they get to revisit some of their favorite episodes, or movies in the ST univers, while getting a fresh story out of it. If the shows good, new viewers would be encouraged to go check out the older series' if their interest is peaked by an episode of this new series. And I just loved the tribbles episode of DS9. It was so seemless, and looked great, and the story was great.

 

[The Question]

Interesting idea. My idea is quite a bit different:



basically, it follows Quincy, a former member of the Q Continueum who was kicked out for meddling in a civilization's progression, and his travels around the universe. With him are his best friend, Ghobe', a former Klingon soldier who, after a particularly bloody battle, became a pacifist. They are also joined bu Benil, a left wing political actavist from Cardasia who was essentially black listed and was unofficially forced to leave Cardasia, Rita, a young star fleet acadamy student who was kicked out for insobordination and, in shame, decided to travel around the universe instead of heading home, and Darkholme, a dominion changeling on the run for crimes she commited in the Gamma Quadrant. The group travels around, and getting into trouble. Usually when Benil forces them to take up some cause.

 

[Superfreak]

Interesting idea. My idea is quite a bit different:



basically, it follows Quincy, a former member of the Q Continueum who was kicked out for meddling in a civilization's progression, and his travels around the universe. With him are his best friend, Ghobe', a former Klingon soldier who, after a particularly bloody battle, became a pacifist. They are also joined bu Benil, a left wing political actavist from Cardasia who was essentially black listed and was unofficially forced to leave Cardasia, Rita, a young star fleet acadamy student who was kicked out for insobordination and, in shame, decided to travel around the universe instead of heading home, and Darkholme, a dominion changeling on the run for crimes she commited in the Gamma Quadrant. The group travels around, and getting into trouble. Usually when Benil forces them to take up some cause.

dude, they already made that show, it was called farscape. Star Trek doesn't have rif raf

 

[The Question]

I never watched that much Farscape. Although from what I've seen, it isn't that similar to what I have planned.




Also.......rif raf?

 

[Superfreak]

I never watched that much Farscape. Although from what I've seen, it isn't that similar to what I have planned.




Also.......rif raf?

star trek isn't about the 'non conformists' in the galaxy. It isn't about the criminals and what not.

watch farscape, the whole show is set on the idea that the entire cast be aline, with only one human. Our lone human lands himself on an escaped prison ship, and they go around get drunk, kill badguys, and end up saving the entire universe in the process. And from what you've written of your idea, it sounds the exact same. Only difference I see, is that farscape takes place in the present.

 

[The Question]

star trek isn't about the 'non conformists' in the galaxy. It isn't about the criminals and what not.

They're not criminals. Well, two of them are. But one of the two never actually did anything wrong. Besides, why does everything in Star Trek have to revolve around Starfleet? It's a big universe, and that's only one aspect.

watch farscape, the whole show is set on the idea that the entire cast be aline, with only one human. Our lone human lands himself on an escaped prison ship, and they go around get drunk, kill badguys, and end up saving the entire universe in the process. And from what you've written of your idea, it sounds the exact same. Only difference I see, is that farscape takes place in the present.

Yeah. I give a rather vague outline, and you say it's exactly the same as another show. I haven't even said any of my story ideas.

 

[Mrh7448]

star trek isn't about the 'non conformists' in the galaxy. It isn't about the criminals and what not.

It's only not about the outsiders and non-conformists because they decide to concentrate on the federation as that was always the mainstay of Rodenberry's universe. But crime and rif raf do exist outside of the fedration control as is shown on many different episodes.

 

[Mrh7448]

The Vulcans also have a belief called Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

So, some Vulcans might also see it as logical to experiment and combine their genetic stock with other species.

Okay that makes sense to me, to diversify the species and bring in new genetic coding as part of an evolutionary step I would buy that as an argument.

 

[The Question]

It's only not about the outsiders and non-conformists because they decide to concentrate on the federation as that was always the mainstay of Rodenberry's universe. But crime and rif raf do exist outside of the fedration control as is shown on many different episodes.

Yeah. And really, my series wouldn't be about the criminal underbelly of the Federation. I would not be ripping off Firefly. These characters simply have nowhere else to go, so they hang with each other and wander around. And really, only one of them is a wanted criminal. A major theme in the series wouldn't be about polotics or anything. It would be about family. Having to decide between the traditions your family holds dear and what you want to do with your life. Trying to reconcile with your relatives after what you see as a grave injustice. And, weather or not family is who you're related to genetically, or simply the people you care about.

 

[Mee]

If I did a Star Trek show/movie it would be a comedy about some inept crew on a meaningless ship just out exploring. Senoir staff would die, their crazy plans wouldn't always work, stuff like that.

I like some of Question's ideas though.

 

[lars573]

Interesting idea. My idea is quite a bit different:



basically, it follows Quincy, a former member of the Q Continueum who was kicked out for meddling in a civilization's progression, and his travels around the universe. With him are his best friend, Ghobe', a former Klingon soldier who, after a particularly bloody battle, became a pacifist. They are also joined bu Benil, a left wing political actavist from Cardasia who was essentially black listed and was unofficially forced to leave Cardasia, Rita, a young star fleet acadamy student who was kicked out for insobordination and, in shame, decided to travel around the universe instead of heading home, and Darkholme, a dominion changeling on the run for crimes she commited in the Gamma Quadrant. The group travels around, and getting into trouble. Usually when Benil forces them to take up some cause.

Actually this concept is like a fusion of elements of Firefly and Farscape. You have 1 normal human, travelling with a bunch of alien outcasts.

Take a look at the original crew of the leviathan Moya and compare them (in very broad strokes) with your concept.

John Crichton -an astronaught from earth who while testing an experimental propulsion system gets pulled into a wormhole (alos knowledge of how to form and use wormholes is downloaded into his brain along the way) and spit out somewhere on the other side of the universe.

Ka D'Argo -A luxan (a race of warriors ie a rip off of Klingons) who was imprisioned by the peacekeepers for the murder of his Sebacean (name of the peacekeeper race) wife. They are real big on genetic purity.

Zhann -Exiled from her race of humanoid plant people because she can feel anger. For them anger is a poison.

Dominar Rigel XVI -Former ruler of the Hynerian empire. He was deposed by his cousin and sold to into slavery.

Officer Aeryn Sun -A Sebacean peacekeeper (who are a lot like Nazi's) who ends up on Moya and is decalred irreversably contaminated. And thus marked for death.

Pilot -The creature that is a symbiatically linked with Moya and communicates her will to the crew. He was not her original pilot though, he was killed by the peacekeepers who wanted to engineer a leviathan warship. Pilots bond with Moya was unatural and painful, as it takes decades to fully bond pilot and ship. But the peacekeepers scientists rigged a way for it to happen in a few weeks.

The first season was driven by Moya and crew running from Captain Crais (who's brother's fighter was taken out by Crichtons ship coming out of the wormhole), who wanted revenge. Intermixed with the crew trying to avenge their wrongs. Like Crichton getting home, Rigel getting his throne back, and D'Argo getting revenge. The other seasons resolved some of the characters motivations, then became about the impending war between the Peacekeepers and the Sacrins. And how Crichtons knowledge of wormholes would save the day.

 

[Mrh7448]

Yeah. And really, my series wouldn't be about the criminal underbelly of the Federation. I would not be ripping off Firefly. These characters simply have nowhere else to go, so they hang with each other and wander around. And really, only one of them is a wanted criminal. A major theme in the series wouldn't be about polotics or anything. It would be about family. Having to decide between the traditions your family holds dear and what you want to do with your life. Trying to reconcile with your relatives after what you see as a grave injustice. And, weather or not family is who you're related to genetically, or simply the people you care about.

you know I don't hate the idea but I think it needs more of a purpose. People are kind of turning from the single episode story arcs like they had in ST:TNG. I think it would need a strong ongoing plot like a lot of shows are using now, especially sci-fi shows. It would be interesting to see a different take on the federation by someone outside looking in.