About the butler scene

[webhead731]

LOL!


















Why do I now have a feeling that it will happen in Spider-Man 4?

 

[Vile]

But he doesn't say spider-man didn't kill him.

The entire PURPOSE of the scene was for Bernard to explain to Harry that YES Peter didnt kill his father and that Harry should forgive him. Gimme a break, dude - we all know what Bernard was getting at. Otherwise his speech makes no sense..."I cleaned his wounds, it came from the glider....but Spidey probably still killed him. Uh, forgive yer friends! They love you!"

Norman had a glider in the liar. And you don't think that this would leave a distinctive mark

Distinctive for a Butler to recognize? No, I dont. It doesnt matter that Norman had a glider in the lair. Norman had all sorts of Goblin goodies, from the razor bats to Harry's ninja sword all over the place - plus, the blades retract, dont forget.

Makes no sense any way you cut it....except to do what it was written to do: GET. HARRY. TO. THE. FIGHT.

 

[Blanket-Man]

Bernard is actually MADAME WEB! Think about it: They're roughly the same age, and the same build.

Otherwise, there really is no logical way to explain his speech to Harry. As Vile stated so succinctly, we see someone (Harry) impaled by a Goblin Glider (courtesy of Venom) ten minutes after Bernard tells Harry that because Norman's wound were caused by the Glider, there's no question "he died by his own hand." [And he DEFINITELY says "own hand," not "own glider" - I've seen it 4 times and I cringed every time!] So when Bernard discovers Harry's corpse, he must then conclude that Harry died by his own hand, also... Sorry, there's no justification for that deas ex machina.

It would've been more believable if Bernard had just shown Harry a copy of AMAZING SPIDEY #122: "See, Harry? This is exactly what happened on that fateful night..."

 

[weezerspider]

It all made pretty good sense. Norman told Pete not to tell Harry, so Spiderman probably told Bernard not to tell Harry. Thats why he kept it a secret for all this time. The night Norman died Peter probably told Bernard what happened and he believed him. If you saw a guy saving people's lives for months on the news I think you'd believe him when he said that Norman's own glider killed him. Bernard decided he needed to tell Harry the night Peter asked for Harry's help to defeat Venom and Sandman, so he broke his promise not to tell Harry and told him. Whether or not it all went down like that, its not a scene to really think about. His whole part in the trillogy was to make Harry realize his father was evil and that Harry needed to help Peter. He did that.

 

[Vile]

so Spiderman probably told Bernard not to tell Harry.

"It must be nice living in Never, Never Land. Maybe I'll come visit you sometime when I get tired of reality."

t:

 

[blk_spidey]

bernard will become the hobgoblin to revenge norman and harry

 

[TNC9852002]

It's not that the scene was "out of left field" for me.

It was just the delivery and the timing of the scene that felt very awkward. It could've been done a little better, IMO.

-TNC

 

[reallyoldspideyfan]

Hello,

The worst part about the whole butler scene was IT TAKES AWAY HARRY'S CHOICE. First off, his story makes no sense. Like what did he do, measure the distance between the holes in Norman's chest, go into the back room and measure the glider? The butler should have said: "I have seen a lot of strange this home but although your father loved you in some way, he was a sick man...and your friends love you...as I do."

That would have put the choice in Harry's hands. Does he stick with the hate or does he trust his friend (Peter)? The way the movie played, the butler told him point blank that Peter did not kill his father and took the choice away.

Makes the scene where he shows up to save Peter thin.

Just my opinion,

DN

 

[X-Maniac]

I didn't like the butler scene. Harry would know from the autopsy etc what caused the wounds on his father.

I can sort of see why it was there. They needed an external factor, what in writing is an 'inciting character' who triggers actions in another character.

But it still seemed odd and questionable. There must have been a better way of working this out in a screenplay.

 

[chaseter]

It all made pretty good sense. Norman told Pete not to tell Harry, so Spiderman probably told Bernard not to tell Harry. Thats why he kept it a secret for all this time. The night Norman died Peter probably told Bernard what happened and he believed him. If you saw a guy saving people's lives for months on the news I think you'd believe him when he said that Norman's own glider killed him. Bernard decided he needed to tell Harry the night Peter asked for Harry's help to defeat Venom and Sandman, so he broke his promise not to tell Harry and told him. Whether or not it all went down like that, its not a scene to really think about. His whole part in the trillogy was to make Harry realize his father was evil and that Harry needed to help Peter. He did that.

Yes, after Spider-Man hand delivered Norman's body to the discovery of Harry who then grabs a gun to kill Spider-Man, Spider-Man stuck around for another 2 hours to wait for Harry to quit grasping his father's dead body so that he could explain to the butler in detailed what happened. Then Bernerd and Spider-Man started going out to get coffee quiet often, developing a rich and deep friendship for each other that would soon develop into an undying love, a love soon to be forsaken. How stupid was all of that? See any parallels? Even if, Bernerd would have told Harry that Spider-Man told him. And if Harry doesn't believe all of that, even if Peter is his best friend, whom happens to be Spider-Man, whom Harry found out was his secret identity, whom saves people for a living, didn't belive it...why would a butler?

 

[englishtrebor]

No, no, no, you are all taking the scene wrong!

This is a set-up for the Butler as an all-knowing character. He is supposed to be divine and knows everything, and the writers want you to think about this. They gave you a taste of what's in store. When you see the next two films, you'll see what I'm talking about.

P.S. Bernard doesn't become Hobgoblin in the next film. Not yet.

 

[DACrowe]

Fanboys.

Yeah it was lazy writing to get Harry to the fight (but still, very Sam Raimi-ish) and I personally would have preferred Harry arguing with "Norman's" spectre one last time and it ending wit hHarry looking conflicted in a mid close-up and then he joins the fight afterwards.

The butler was lazy writing. But it didn't ruin the movie and why must fanboys argue over it so minutely about why Harry should believe the validity of it or whether the butler has had forensic training or if he was lying or....

it is a very obvious scene. Too obvious. Love it, hate it or whatever. But we don't need so much arguing about it.

 

[Murder]

Fanboys.

Yeah it was lazy writing to get Harry to the fight (but still, very Sam Raimi-ish) and I personally would have preferred Harry arguing with "Norman's" spectre one last time and it ending wit hHarry looking conflicted in a mid close-up and then he joins the fight afterwards.

The butler was lazy writing. But it didn't ruin the movie and why must fanboys argue over it so minutely about why Harry should believe the validity of it or whether the butler has had forensic training or if he was lying or....

it is a very obvious scene. Too obvious. Love it, hate it or whatever. But we don't need so much arguing about it.

Great Post Sometimes people take the internet to a new level. Cheers!!

 

[Spidey-Sean]

I think the big problem with that scene was, why didn't Bernard tell Harry? He sees Harry brooding over Spider-man and apparently knows Spider-man did not kill Norman Osbourne. If he loved him so much, he wouldn't have let Harry self destruct with alcohol and whatnot.

 

[Immortalfire]

LOL

Teaser image for Spidey 4 already? Neato

 

[Alexia Dark]

Yeah.

"Sorry I didn't tell you in time not to get half of your face blown off."

 

[chaseter]

Fanboys.

Yeah it was lazy writing to get Harry to the fight (but still, very Sam Raimi-ish) and I personally would have preferred Harry arguing with "Norman's" spectre one last time and it ending wit hHarry looking conflicted in a mid close-up and then he joins the fight afterwards.

The butler was lazy writing. But it didn't ruin the movie and why must fanboys argue over it so minutely about why Harry should believe the validity of it or whether the butler has had forensic training or if he was lying or....

it is a very obvious scene. Too obvious. Love it, hate it or whatever. But we don't need so much arguing about it.

No it didn't ruin the movie...but it put a damn big dent in it. You even admit to it being lazy writing and wishing something else happened like we all want...so why deny it? Why deny the urge to make fun of it? Had it not been lazy writing, then we wouldn't be arguing over it. And yes, Harry arguing with his dad and finally realizing he is not his dad would have been great.

 

[chaseter]

I also loved it how Bernerd never wondered what the hell happened to Harry's face...he probably knew that it was a pumpkin bomb that scared Harry's face from his own hands.

 

[Tyrinus]

There's also the possibility that if Norman was so engrossed in his work that he brought it home, and if he brought it home then there's a good chance Bernard could have seen blue prints or other designs that Norman was working on. So he could have knowledge of some of the equipment from continually seeing designs while waiting on Norman.

 

[chaseter]

There's also the possibility that if Norman was so engrossed in his work that he brought it home, and if he brought it home then there's a good chance Bernard could have seen blue prints or other designs that Norman was working on. So he could have knowledge of some of the equipment from continually seeing designs while waiting on Norman.

Then why would Norman hide it in a secret room? Bernerd more than likely never knew of the room...if he did...it shouldn't have come out of left field like it did in SM3.

 

[Abaddon]

Fanboys.

Yeah it was lazy writing to get Harry to the fight (but still, very Sam Raimi-ish) and I personally would have preferred Harry arguing with "Norman's" spectre one last time and it ending wit hHarry looking conflicted in a mid close-up and then he joins the fight afterwards.

The butler was lazy writing. But it didn't ruin the movie and why must fanboys argue over it so minutely about why Harry should believe the validity of it or whether the butler has had forensic training or if he was lying or....

it is a very obvious scene. Too obvious. Love it, hate it or whatever. But we don't need so much arguing about it.

It has nothing to do with being a "fanboy". Any intelligent moviegoer could point out the shoddyness of that scene.

 

[DACrowe]

I do think it was a mistake and anyone who is being critical of it will point it out. In fact I think the entire beginning of the third act is rushed. The team up, Venom's first appearance, the butler, the newscasting, etc. It just seemed Sony was saying "we need to cut this down 20 minutes get us to the fight, NOW."

But what fanboys do is discussi t ad nauseum. We all agree it was a bad idea but this thread is hours of people arguing the butler's motivations and his forensic training and whether Harry would have believed him before then and whether the butler knew Harry had gone off the deep end etc, etc.

It's all moot. There is a difference between criticizing and OBSESSING.

 

[Vile]

...That is what these boards are for!

 

[mjbull23]

It's a pretty big plot hole. I agree, and it makes zero sense that he would idly watch the son of his former employer self destruct without at least attempting to sit him down and tell him what he saw transpire.

Has anyone considered that perhaps he tried talking to Harry about this topic in the past, but Harry wouldn't allow any talk of his father's gruesome death. It's a big leap, I know. It should've been clarified in the movie.

 

[DACrowe]

Well one could argue that hey maybe he didn't know Harry was becoming the next Goblin or that Harry had forgotten after he found out so there was no need to warn him until he later found his face had been blown off....but it doesn't matter. I wouldn't call it a plot hole, it is more a plot device and a cheesy one. But not really a plot hole, though.