Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion - Part 6

[Vartha]

I was watching the Magical place this morning, and something confused me a bit.
Raney was talking about the Cellist one second and Coulsons Mother the next about not having his one chance for a real life being passed by. She wasn't saying his MOM is the Cellist is she?

 

[Vartha]

Some people will never give up on the "Killian is the real Mandarin" thing.

there is NO way. lol
Killian may have been alot brighter than Quinn and definitely Hammer, but no WAY is he Tonys equal

 

[Human Torch]

'At risk of leaving the show' would suggest someone nearly dies to me, when combined with the promo showing Coulson clearly distressed over someone injured. Doesn't mean they will die though (the promo for the one where Simmons nearly died suggested someone there was gonna be at risk as well, though I thought it was gonna be Fitz from how they showed it).

Those "near death" things are a staple of TV shows wanting to drop a character gracefully,whilst leaving the door ajar at a possible return.They got rid of Hall much the same way in Arrow last year and the black actress from the Knight Rider reboot.

The character gets into a "near death" situation and goes off to recover and rehab,supposedly to return some day.The only question is who would fit the bill in the current cast if that scenario turns out to be the case?

 

[metaphysician]

He means someone other than Killian, assuming the end of IM3 is retconned.

Yes, and my point is that such a position is laughable, and should be mocked vigorously.

 

[metaphysician]

Some people will never give up on the "Killian is the real Mandarin" thing.

That's because he is the real Mandarin.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

For now...

 

[cherokeesam]

The answer is simple: because SHIELD is an international policing force that is in the way of their ultimate goal.
That alone is sufficient motivation for any "bad guy" to have a beef with SHIELD.

So, since all criminals are, in fact, criminals, and will necessarily run afoul of the law at some point in their career, you're saying it would be a good strategy for them to go out and start killing cops and attacking police stations?

Sorry: crime doesn't work that way. Criminals try to operate in the shadows and *avoid* the law as much as humanly possible. In fact, that's exactly what Killian did in creating the Mandarin smokescreen to divert the authorities and military from investigating the true cause of all those blasts.

Why would he get involved with an organization like Centipede?
I'll answer your question with another question: Why would he get involved with an organization like The Ten Rings? At least Centipede seems to have more advanced weaponry and organization than The Ten Rings showed in IM1... Who's to say Centipede isn't what's left over of 10 Rings, with a rebranding?

Killian was only using Ten Rings as, stated above, a smokescreen. By all appearances, in 2008, Ten Rings was an ancient terrorist organization that had long since become a shadow of its former self and was now a loose assembly of disjointed cells with pissant warlords like Raza commanding them. Think: the Assassins (the real organization; not the one in the video games). Think: al-Qaeda.

Stane employed Ten Rings for one simple task: to kill Tony Stark. Raza ****ed that up royally and indirectly ushered in the Heroic Age. Rather than kill Tony, he made him into a genuine superhero, who came back and essentially destroyed what was left of Ten Rings. Killian then seized the opportunity to co-opt the Ten Rings name to cover up his Extremis "accidents." He also co-opted an ancient Ten Rings leader figure, The Mandarin, and placed an actor in that role.

It's not that hard to map out. Ten Rings were just pawns of Stane and Killian. Who may or may not even have a connection.

For now...

Unless the "Hail to the King" one-shot throws a monkey wrench in everything that Drew Pearce, Shane Black and Kevin Feige said about IM3, then yes, Killian is officially The Mandarin. All three of those gentlemen specifically said so in interviews.

And considering that Drew Pearce also wrote the "Hail to the King" script, I wouldn't bet a single dirty penny on him changing his mind and retconning Killian's story for the sake of a few angry fans who didn't understand the Mandarin Twist at all.

 

[Xeno]

I was watching the Magical place this morning, and something confused me a bit.
Raney was talking about the Cellist one second and Coulsons Mother the next about not having his one chance for a real life being passed by. She wasn't saying his MOM is the Cellist is she?

Coulson's mother is not the Cellist.


Raina mentioned that SHIELD is Coulson's only family since he lost his mother as well as his father as Po had talked about earlier. Then she went on to say that Coulson didn't just give up his life, he gave up his chance for a normal life, love and the possibility of having a family with the Cellist. She was his ex-girlfriend.


Raina is a great character and I hope that we haven't seen the last of her. She is a very bad girl, which makes her an ideal SHIELD recruit. Coulson should break her out of jail and take her under his wing as a new protegee. He could entice Raina away from the dark side or at least have fun trying.

 

[Xeno]

For now...

...and forever.

 

[cph9fa]

Not earth-shattering news, but Max Hernandez seems to be indirectly dropping hints on twitter that he's filmed more AoS, apparently with Bill Paxton, and maybe Titus Welliver?


Sitwell... is the Clairvoyant!

 

[hopeless]

Not earth-shattering news, but Max Hernandez seems to be indirectly dropping hints on twitter that he's filmed more AoS, apparently with Bill Paxton, and maybe Titus Welliver?

Sitwell... is the Clairvoyant!

So was this because Simmonds shot him or was he evil all along?

Spoiler

If so he probably enjoyed being shot...

Wait a minute didn't she use the nite nite pistol?

Good god it grants powers?!!!

 

[fixxxer]

Killian was only using Ten Rings as, stated above, a smokescreen. By all appearances, in 2008, Ten Rings was an ancient terrorist organization that had long since become a shadow of its former self and was now a loose assembly of disjointed cells with pissant warlords like Raza commanding them. Think: the Assassins (the real organization; not the one in the video games). Think: al-Qaeda.

Stane employed Ten Rings for one simple task: to kill Tony Stark. Raza ****ed that up royally and indirectly ushered in the Heroic Age. Rather than kill Tony, he made him into a genuine superhero, who came back and essentially destroyed what was left of Ten Rings. Killian then seized the opportunity to co-opt the Ten Rings name to cover up his Extremis "accidents." He also co-opted an ancient Ten Rings leader figure, The Mandarin, and placed an actor in that role.

It's not that hard to map out. Ten Rings were just pawns of Stane and Killian. Who may or may not even have a connection.

Unless the "Hail to the King" one-shot throws a monkey wrench in everything that Drew Pearce, Shane Black and Kevin Feige said about IM3, then yes, Killian is officially The Mandarin. All three of those gentlemen specifically said so in interviews.

And considering that Drew Pearce also wrote the "Hail to the King" script, I wouldn't bet a single dirty penny on him changing his mind and retconning Killian's story for the sake of a few angry fans who didn't understand the Mandarin Twist at all.

Haha, the folks that hated IM3, Mandarin twist, Killian-as-Mandarin et al should read this. Then read it again. Then a few more times to commit it to memory. It might not change their opinion of the film but at least might help them get their facts right before constructing future arguments on why "IM3 sux OMFG!!!"

 

[Xeno]

I would be willing to bet that all that will come of the Hail to the King One-Shot is that what's left of the Ten Rings will recruit Trevor Slattery to keep playing The Mandarin in videos for them, like Bin Laden kept cranking out videos for Al Qaeda. Only Trevor will still be just an actor playing a role, not a dyed-in-the-wool terrorist. He'll be the Mandarin, but not the Mandarin. He's here, but he's not here. Again.


I will seriously laugh till I cry if that happens.

 

[TRM]

I still think it's "complicated" Trevor spoke the truth when he said "no two ways about it", there are many ways thing could go after any possible reveals, the sort of hidden roadsigns Feige was talking about at one point. It's true Killian is the Mandarin right now. Or believes himself to be the sole creator of the character.
The Marvel people have lied before. Lying is part of acting/being a spy

"Trevor" pauses for a second when Tony asks, "so Killian created you?" and says yes but that he "brought life to the character".
There are certain clues that help you tell when someone is lying or speaking half-truths, Shield would know these. And of course Trevor will seem oblivious to the filmmaker's true purpose in blowing "trevor"'s second cover. Shield can tell he's just putting on another act (i think he's really a superspy who went deep undercover, and gets lost in false faces). When his speech patterns speed up, he's lying. This operative is a master of working under false faces, false personas. The filmmaker's true purpose, to which everyone is oblivious, is to comfort "Trevor" in an environment he feels safe in, and force him to break character, because he did study acting to become a better spy...

"Trevor" himself admits he gave Tony "nothing". People get that Killian is currently the Mandarin, but it's also about Killian's philosophy, his way of thinking, wanting to be anonymous. There are so many layers to IM3 that no one has picked up on. A lot of it has to do with the brain/psychology, Tony's mind being a weapon/part of what makes him who he is, and psychological themes. The actual alter ego developing in the brain. The Iron Man persona now "a part" of Tony. Mandarin persona not yet a part of Killian...
IM persona is attacking Tony in his sleep. Tony had to repeat the "I am Iron Man" line because it's really part of his psyche now, becomes a healthier part of it in the end. Tony and the Iron Man alter ego are inseparable...However, it's not the same for Killian, or the Mandarin alter-ego yet.

Killian saying "I am the Mandarin" is closer to Stark saying it in IM3
It's not "a part of" Killian completely yet, he simply took credit for it, like Tony did in IM1.
Killian hasn't earned the alter-ego yet. He never lived it. It isn't really a part of him..

It's no accident that Banner makes a joke that ties in with the brain/mind theme...I really do think there were multiple tricks being played. Many things going on under the surface, elements of psychological warfare. Things that can work forwards and backwards, where our subconscious minds help fill in gaps and rearrange things instantly to understand it in different ways, planned out in such a way that the movie can be viewed after phase 2 and will still make sense forwards and backwards, like the AIM/MIA file Tony flipped over.
Tony did see the Mandarin twist coming. He saw other things coming ahead of time..."I've got a team of guys coming tomorrow to blow out that wall". The subconscious mind is still a mystery in many ways. The brain itself is still not completely understood, although Killian seems to know a lot about the brain for no reason... That's why there has to be more to why Killian was showing off his brain...

Killian would be saying "I am the Mandarin" in the way Tony did in Im1. Egotistically taking credit for it. Although the true match for Stark's ego becomes Trevor. Trevor thinks "he's the best" at playing the king, receives credit for being the Mandarin, some still believe him to be.
The Mandarin persona isn't a part of Killian's brain yet.
Killian wanted to be anonymous, he never really wanted it traced back to him. Trevor wanted to be seen. Trevor enjoys the fame...He enjoyed living the name, he "brought the character to life".
Trevor's ego could become bigger than Killian's. "Trevor" and Tony are both "the best" at what they do. "Trevor" might be a pre-madonna in the making, with bigger playboy tendencies, and a bigger ego than Tony. Both would want to be seen on opening night, like Loki did. Tony understood Loki's next move in Avengers because Loki and Stark were both egotistic. Mandarin wants a name for himself and Ultron's seeking freewill, so it'll be bigger than Loki's show.

In the IM3 mobile game it sort of hinted that Killian's brain was under MODOK's control. MODOK doesn't like to be seen.

 

[fixxxer]

*sigh*

 

[TRM]

There's just no convincing some people lol. These movies are character studies. Killian is the Mandarin right now, just like War Machine was Iron Patriot. Rhodey clearly preferred the name War Machine, as did Tony.

It has a lot to do with the name one is given, or the name one chooses. Names/codenames can also be given to ppl to control them. When Raina gave Scorch that name it wasn't supposed to be the real scorch...People in the episode comment on how it's not a good name, Coulson says "they gave him a name" in a negative way. Giving him a name, or giving someone a name, makes them different...

It changes the way they think, it doesn't only make them a target.

It's clear there's some sort of plan already with how vague some of "Trevor's" statements were. Time will tell just how much "All Hail the King" reveals, and which way they're going with things,

Being able to create multiple false personas, drop accents, speak many languages, convince people of anything, and being able to operate under many false faces is very important for a spy. Spies ABSOLUTELY have to be able to create multiple covers, have fake identities to fall back on, etc. Trevor being able to act so effectively means he could actually be a very good spy...
The importance of acting undercover will be seen in the next episode of Shield. It's something all Shield agents must learn to do: act

Jemma and Melinda suck at the acting part of being a spy.

 

[cherokeesam]

All of that would make some sort of sense, LokiD, except for the fact that Trevor Slattery is a common prisoner in Seagate Prison right now.

If Trevor was a superspy, or "The Real Mandarin" in disguise, he would've busted his way out of Seagate easily enough by now. Po on AOS is a much lesser character, and prison walls didn't hold him for very long at all.

I suspect the purpose of "Hail to the King" will be for Pearce to merely reinforce the political, ideological and literary argument he was making with The Mandarin Twist --- namely, that we create our own demons (a direct quote from IM3) and invent boogeymen to justify our own illicit actions. The point of the Mandarin Twist was that Iron Man doesn't need a nemesis to be a hero. The point of the Mandarin Twist was a thinly veiled political commentary on the way the US invents and manipulates boogeymen like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden (heroes and allies to the US in the 1980s; vilified public enemies to the US in the 2000s) as a smokescreen to our (ongoing) imperialist forays into the Middle East and North Africa.

 

[TRM]

My whole theory on why Trevor is working his way through the prison system is a lot more complicated, but I'll try to sum it up. He would want to be in a certain prison to eventually start a prison break. He'd hear about some of these other prisons, after being taken in as a political prisoner at Sea Gate.
His mission would be to move from one prison to another, Sea Gate isn't his final destination, he wants to actually move deeper within Shield's prison system, but this involves making them really suspicious of him, yet still giving them nothing.

My whole idea is that the filmmaker is actually using the documentary as a cover to get to the bottom of things. In Matt Fraction's Uncovering the Mandarin comics, they learn that Mandarin has no true past...This "All hail the King" documentary would be similar, it would start out trying to get more details about 10 rings, but they learn that "Trevor Slattery" isn't even his real name...This man was an actor (because spying and acting overlap in some areas), but no records exist of him before the stage name Trevor Slattery appeared as King Lear.

There can actually be 9 Mandarins at a time in the political sense of the term.
Mandarin can also mean "adviser to the king", so by Killian saying he was the Mandarin, he gives up the "King" title to Trevor for now...
These would sort of be codenames, and both are a Master.

It would be more like a form of stage magic, or a disappearing act where Killian and Mandarin were both in on it...Stage magic tricks and spy tactics also overlap in some ares: you have to be able to deceive other spies' minds with disguises, doubles, smoke and mirrors, misdirections. One is always the Mandarin while the other is the King, both are masters, they trade places like a magician and his assistant in some ways, including multiple misdirections, line of sight/perception tricks, and manipulation of the mind...Basically the Mandarin would never do anything in a straight forward way, and his whole plan is very complicated, but follows the traditions set forth by Genghis Khan's massive spy network, and he kinda makes plans for Hydra...not really for MODOK or Killian, MODOK hates Zola for what Zola did.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

a pre-madonna? is this in any way related to a primadonna or is it about Ms. Ciccone before her singing career?

 

[TRM]

A little bit of both. He wants to be as big as Madonna. Wants to be seen by the world and change his name, find the right stage name. The whole documentary crew angle seems totally related to Matt Fraction's run.

I really think Trevor/Mandarin is just toying around with us and with using this as his stage name right now, it hasn't become him yet. Trevor Slattery would also be a "stage name". We would find out the man known as "trevor slattery" is still lying and has no true past, similar to "Uncovering The Mandarin". He has many pasts. His identity was erased 24 years ago, he was referred to as the Charismatic man back then, now they call him by many titles, King, Master, The Clairvoyant, The Emperor... Mandarin has many pasts, no true past, no true secret identity right now (besides Killian), and has been portrayed in many different ways. His main thing seems to be that he's manipulative, wants to takeover the world at times. What I'm suggesting is that the whole facelessness trait is becoming sort of part of his character, The true way to hide your personality and go unseen might be through acting...Widow can change accents, fake accents, drop accents, speak many languages flawlessly, in short Widow can act and blend in...Was sent into Tony's company undercover. Mandarin would be under deep cover. Killian wanted to be anonymous and hated false faces, he had to stay behind the scenes a lot of the time, Trevor can operate right out in the open and hide all his motives. Killian lacked subtlety in 1999, Tony saw what he was trying to do when he made his presentation. Trevor is much better at operating behind false faces, misdirecting, not revealing everything.

However, he tells half-truths to make his lies more convincing. And knows everything there is to know about how to condition the mind with certain triggers.
Maybe even studies ancient mysticism. Is more obsessed with symbols than we know, and helped make the fake terrorist seem semi real to the remnants of 10 rings by using the real historical symbols of the group..He did his research, to help bring Killian's lie to life. This leaves the real ten rings group and Ezekiel Stane confused at first, some thought he was the real deal because he held all the symbols their real leader should hold, passed down from Genghis Kahn's time to Persia and India.

 

[Crimson King]

Wait, I thought you told us the Mandarin was actually an archaeologist? Is that still true?

 

[TRM]

One of his pasts while working for Hydra might have been, but this would be after his identity was erased around the time Skye's was...He had to do research on the real 10 ring symbols (not real rings yet, but symbols of power held as important to the ancient 10 rings group). Having variations of their actual symbols helped him fake being their leader, so he used parts of his anthro knowledge to create the illusion.

After his past with Skye and Hydra he moved through many of Hydra and the think tank's groups, until being needed to go public in a big way because of his abilities in mass hypnotism/knowledge of mass psychology, as well as manipulating individual minds. He understands a lot about all cultures, is actually a little interested in symbols/the mythical and religious beliefs of the real 10 rings group, but had no time to look into the legends of the real rings and the mythical dragons the Asians, Indians and Persians believe in before preparing his act, and teaching his lessons. The real 10 rings has turned cultish since Thor turned out to be real, and what was left moved "underground", in competition with some of Hydra's more fanatical followers, who follow the "pharaohs of old" and Greek Myth, more than Asian/Persian...They believe all myths might be real now, dragons once roamed the Earth in our ancient past, possibly came here from another planet.. The spy held many names and positions throughout his life. All of them as a double, or triple agent. They used to call him the Charismatic man

He may have gone by many names since that time, lived many lives, none of them completely real yet...However, what he learned during his time posing as an archaeologist is what really matters. He learned there is a real legend associated to the ancient 10 rings group, and that some of their members believe dragons once existed in the ancient past, they don't exist anymore to anyone's knowledge. "Killian the Great" is a descendant of Alexander the Great, not Genghis Khan. Hydra's history can't be traced on a wall, and neither can the 10 rings. Hydra and 10 rings have actually both sprung from way further back in the timeline than WW2. Hydra tracks their lineages to the "pharaohs of old", and are obsessed with Greek and Egyptian myths... 10 rings have longstanding beliefs and associations with many cultures across the ancient world, and dislike Hydra's side. they even dislike the think tank/AIM groups.

 

[Endeavor]

Yes, and my point is that such a position is laughable, and should be mocked vigorously.

Why?
Retcons happen all the time in comics, and that way everybody gets a version of Mandarin they like.
You'd still have your Killian Mandarin which you enjoyed, and those of us who didn't like it will have an alternative.
In fact I see a lot of potential in it. Imagine a Killian that survived the explosion having to face another Mandarin that is seeking revenge for having his name used as an escape goat, with the heroes stuck in the middle.

 

[Crimson King]

Oh man. LokiD/TRM, if we could harness the power of your ******** we could light the world for a millennium.

 

[Endeavor]

Lol